W10 and ARM... here we are!

[fatclue_98]

It's getting increasingly difficult to follow these forums. Microsoft and Qualcomm have come up with a revolutionary, not evolutionary, method to have 24/7 access to our PC programs on the same device we text and place phone calls with and what are the babies crying about? Oh, we're getting abandoned again. Microsoft is ditching their loyal customers again. Our brand new phones will be obsolete in a year. STFU already!

This is the biggest change in cellular technology since the advent of digital transmission. Anybody old enough to remember cell cloning in the 90s? There will always be a new technology right around the corner. Embrace it. It will make your life easier to some degree. When you buy a flagship you know it will be superseded, why b!tch about the next model?

Enjoy what you have today and don't worry about what's next. Negative and miserable ain't no way to go through life.

 

[Pynchmail]

So, there will be 3 versions:
1. Windows 10 for x86 x64
2. Windows 10 for ARM
3. Windows 10 Mobile
Maintaining and updating 3 versions may require more resources. So, what I think may happen is that Windows 10 for ARM and Windows 10 Mobile will become one. ARM devices regardless of size will run W10 for ARM. The UI of W10 ARM may be revised so that it will have phone mode, much like how Windows 10 has a tablet mode. In terms of hardware requirement, it may be the same as Windows 10 for PC, which currently run on as little as 2GB and 32GB, which is not considered high end even now.
For us using W10M at the moment, it will continue to be supported for a few years. Access to the Store and apps will continue to be available as I think W10M apps should also run on W10ARM natively. Just my views.

 

[Wolfjt]

This will be interesting but let's put in perspective. Who in here wants to run x86 programs on low end ARM hardware? Let's forego the hardware for a sec, why would you want to run photoshop on a 5 inch screen? Just because you can get it to work doesn't mean you should.

 

[fatclue_98]

This will be interesting but let's put in perspective. Who in here wants to run x86 programs on low end ARM hardware? Let's forego the hardware for a sec, why would you want to run photoshop on a 5 inch screen? Just because you can get it to work doesn't mean you should.

A true desktop-class browser would make it worth it by itself.

Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk

 

[Wolfjt]

A true desktop-class browser would make it worth it by itself.

Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk

This is a play for the enterprise, so businesses can port their applications to a mobile device. I don't see a consumer play here at all. If I want desktop applications I'll use my Surface Pro and not some tiny low power mobile device.

 

[Pynchmail]

Yes, you are right. I think it is designed for use with Continuum. For example, let's say you are an interior designer, you designed a beautiful room using your office x86 3D CAD software. You load the design onto your phone and go meet your client. You connect your phone to your client's LCD TV using Continuum and started going through the design. You can revise the design on your phone together with your client, and once done, you email the design to your client on the spot. All without having to bring a laptop. A true cellular 5 inch PC running Windows 10 ARM with Creator's Update.

 

[fatclue_98]

This is a play for the enterprise, so businesses can port their applications to a mobile device. I don't see a consumer play here at all. If I want desktop applications I'll use my Surface Pro and not some tiny low power mobile device.

There's nothing to port. Any Win32 prog you have laying around will do. This is not meant to replace anything, but it will do away with lugging around a laptop for remote locations especially since you can't make phone calls from a Surface Pro. If you've ever used any of the UMPCs from 10 years ago which had 7" resistive displays (I had the Samsung Q1 Ultra), this will make perfect sense.

Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk

 

[Wolfjt]

There's nothing to port. Any Win32 prog you have laying around will do. This is not meant to replace anything, but it will do away with lugging around a laptop for remote locations especially since you can't make phone calls from a Surface Pro. If you've ever used any of the UMPCs from 10 years ago which had 7" resistive displays (I had the Samsung Q1 Ultra), this will make perfect sense.

Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk

There will have to be work done to fit to screen size and such, I can't believe it'll be a 1 to 1 type of experience. We will see, Continum has had zero play in business as it is. There is zero demand for UWP apps in the enterprise. I don't want to be a negative Nelly and I'll be open minded. We'll see how it goes, I just can't see wanting to run x86 on Arm, time will tell that's for sure.

 

[fatclue_98]

There will have to be work done to fit to screen size and such, I can't believe it'll be a 1 to 1 type of experience. We will see, Continum has had zero play in business as it is. There is zero demand for UWP apps in the enterprise. I don't want to be a negative Nelly and I'll be open minded. We'll see how it goes, I just can't see wanting to run x86 on Arm, time will tell that's for sure.

As I mentioned, there have been XP and Vista-based PCs running on 7" screens. Been there and done that. The UWP apps are not even necessary. If you're not using them now on your PC, you won't need them later. This is a full Windows 10 OS we're talking about. It's not an emulation, it's the real deal. I completely disagree with the notion this is going to be for Enterprise only. The full weight of a Windows OS on a handheld device that has full telephony will be especially worthwhile in developing countries or even for the less fortunate right here at home. This is a game changer. You may not want to run x86 on ARM but there are many more who would, if not by sheer necessity.

 

[Wolfjt]

As I mentioned, there have been XP and Vista-based PCs running on 7" screens. Been there and done that. The UWP apps are not even necessary. If you're not using them now on your PC, you won't need them later. This is a full Windows 10 OS we're talking about. It's not an emulation, it's the real deal. I completely disagree with the notion this is going to be for Enterprise only. The full weight of a Windows OS on a handheld device that has full telephony will be especially worthwhile in developing countries or even for the less fortunate right here at home. This is a game changer. You may not want to run x86 on ARM but there are many more who would, if not by sheer necessity.

I'll leave it with this. I know it's full blown Windows. My point about Continum and UWP apps is, they weren't enough to raise interest in the enterprise there was and is no demand for it. Have you ever used a low power laptop and experience how horrible it is to use? I can't see ARM being any different, that's all I'm saying. We shall see.

 

[Greywolf1967]

This really does open a world of interesting things.....
HP and the X3 could fold the x86 emulation into Continuum + have the web portal for work. The chips can handle it now they just need to roll up their sleeves and do the work.
A phone + dock + mouse for a mobile worker will be better on the budget in the long run.

I know many will say "It lacks the Power to do x86 work", however I work in the real world, a CFO will call for new equipment at less cost, no matter what IT will claim they then have to find a way to make it work.

Companies are tight on spending, and this I know first hand...as the company I am with now runs it's welding robots from 3.5" Floppy.....none of them are connected the network, which could provide updates to programs so much faster. I would say 90% of the control units run Win95 at the core, under a custom shell.

My prior company also in the auto parts field, was still rolling out Windows 7 to work stations as "Brand New" when Windows 8.1 was rolling out.

Upper management does not understand tech, but they do understand Dollar amounts.....their wonderful saying is....."You wanted New, here it is, now make it work!"

 

[Ivan05il]

Using phone for presentations with your customer's TV, there's something cheap about it there. If you want to impress, make an effort, bring your own equipment, use HoloLens instead, I'd say. I rather wonder what Intel people think about it. For MS it's the same, a Windows license for a license, but Intel will see a decline on the low end of their range.

 

[JaimitoFrog]

Originally posted by Ivan05il
Using phone for presentations with your customer's TV, there's something cheap about it there. If you want to impress, make an effort, bring your own equipment, use HoloLens instead, I'd say. I rather wonder what Intel people think about it. For MS it's the same, a Windows license for a license, but Intel will see a decline on the low end of their range.

A HoloLens type interface will be the ultimate mobile continuum. You can have a big screen experience without carrying or using a large screen. Sharing will require you to have two goggles I guess. But that might be what the Surface Phone/Mobile will be like. A handheld device with MR interface as option. With Win10 on ARMs, a Hololens can be made smaller, and last longer on battery, built in wifi, BT, GPS, LTE etc.

 

[Joe920]

So remember a year ago when Rubino, Thurrott etc all were saying 'omg we have seen the future, WP lives!!' followed by absolute silence? Have we finally seen what that was all about?

 

[nate0]

I don't think it actually runs on the 820 soc. The wording is very precise. The same "CPU" as the 820. The 820 is a soc which combines multiple things including a CPU. Sure it may run on the kryo cpu but it's possible the SOC contains a separate component that was developed by MS to go into newer qualcomm models. Or something else on the silicon that can make the emulation faster. If it's all done at the software layer there's no real need to even involve qualcomm in the process for compatibility.

This is where I see this being exclusive to Microsoft in some way. Maybe in patents or other areas.

 

[Pynchmail]

This is where I see this being exclusive to Microsoft in some way. Maybe in patents or other areas.

This is an interesting take on the processor. However, I feel that MS will not be complicating matter at this stage. They are hoping to have wider choice of chip sets running Windows 10 so that OEMs will be better able to produce affordable mobile devices that will increase market share. The partnering with Qualcomm is a marketing exercise as Qualcomm is the largest, with H1 2016 Antutu benchmark market share of almost 50%, and has the most powerful ARM chip. If MS were to show Windows 10 ARM without Qualcomm, it doesn't sound as imminent and raises the question of whether there is a processor that can support the OS.

 

[nate0]

This is an interesting take on the processor. However, I feel that MS will not be complicating matter at this stage. They are hoping to have wider choice of chip sets running Windows 10 so that OEMs will be better able to produce affordable mobile devices that will increase market share. The partnering with Qualcomm is a marketing exercise as Qualcomm is the largest, with H1 2016 Antutu benchmark market share of almost 50%, and has the most powerful ARM chip. If MS were to show Windows 10 ARM without Qualcomm, it doesn't sound as imminent and raises the question of whether there is a processor that can support the OS.

I'd be interested in seeing a flow chart or visio of how they have this built...

 

[Pynchmail]

I'd be interested in seeing a flow chart or visio of how they have this built...

10 years ago when Apple moved to Intel x86 processors from Motorola's PowerPC processors, they included a dynamic binary translator known as Rosetta in Mac OS X that allows old PowerPC applications to run on new Mac OS X. They managed to get up to 80% efficiency compared to running natively on PowerPC processors. So Windows 10 ARM could be something similar.

 

[nate0]

10 years ago when Apple moved to Intel x86 processors from Motorola's PowerPC processors, they included a dynamic binary translator known as Rosetta in Mac OS X that allows old PowerPC applications to run on new Mac OS X. They managed to get up to 80% efficiency compared to running natively on PowerPC processors. So Windows 10 ARM could be something similar.

True. Exponentially better I hope given that was 10 years ago.

 

[alodar101]

Would be nice to see them make it run on older devices such as Surface RT or even the Lumia 950XL. Probably requires too much resources and speed for that though.

Why? its the backward compatibility that makes it so hard. Especially an RT? That barely worked well when it was new. I'd like to see it work on the XL, but I would also love to see it NOT compromised by attempting to go backwards. Ideal CPU is 825...X3 has an 820...the xl is an 810(?). When features/stability must be compromised to get it to go backwards.