12-02-2015 11:33 PM
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  1. TexasLabRat's Avatar
    I think this is an awfully long thread of assumptions, which will not be solved until someone gets one and pops a Verizon SIM into it. Note that other 'universal' devices have had issues. Over at an Android forum, I saw "My guess is that IMEIs for the Moto X Pure Edition from Motorola haven’t been loaded into Verizon’s systems yet and that’s why phones can’t be activated." Other sites talk about popping a Verizon SIM into a Nexus of some flavor and if the SIM had been registered it worked, but you couldn't register a new SIM in the phone. I'd say, when we get one, find a friend with a current Verizon SIM, or use your own, and pop it in there, and tweet, post, shout from a minaret, your findings. Short of any official announcement, all this is speculation. I will be getting one of these, though I am on AT&T, and will hunt up a friend with Verizon and try it. To much else to do between now and then to agonize over it.
    If the FCC certification did not include Verizon bands, it would be illegal to operate the phone on those frequencies. Hence, one can assume they are locked out in firmware. I haven't been able to locate the certification paperwork for the 950XL (RM-1116), but device RM-1085 looks very very similar (dual cellular antennas, etc) and does not have Verizon bands. So yes, not conclusive proof but I wouldn't go betting any valuable body parts that it's going to work.
    10-10-2015 01:56 PM
  2. dkediger's Avatar
    I know that Verizon and Sprint are CDMA. But there are other carriers that are GSM. And looking at 950's, they support all other carriers.
    In the US, its also a matter of geographical area, population densities, and frequency allocations.

    Where I live, ATT has very poor to nonexistent coverage while Verizon has very, very good coverage. Its a historical artifact, as our first carriers were small, CDMA based regionals. They built the customers bases, and operated in the frequencies that made their consolidation under Verizon foregone conclusions.

    ATT meanwhile, had almost no access to frequency in my area until they converted to GSM. By that time however, everyone was already a customer of a CDMA carrier, and eventually, Verizon. ATT simply felt they couldn't peel enough customers away from Verizon to make extensive network investments. They'll support coverage along Interstate highway routes, but that's about it.
    10-10-2015 02:01 PM
  3. ajj3085's Avatar
    Temporary ? Sure Verizon and Sprint are going away from CDMA and going to LTE that is a GSM based tech but, this transition will take YEARS to be fully moved to LTE. Verizon claims they have the best coverage is because they can DEPEND on their 3G/CDMA network in dead spots, this will be like this for many years to come.

    By the time Verizon and Sprint at 100% away from 3g/CDMA (5-10 years) with Microsoft's choices here, Windows Phone will not even be an option for a phone.

    Think about it....
    I don't think whether or not you can get a windows phone on Verizon or not matters for the future of windows phone. They'll fix their dead spots like att does, by building a new tower. And in a few years Verizon will be GSM and we won't have such nonsense anymore. Honestly Verizons lockin is why i switched to ATT years ago. That and their absolute **** customer service
    10-10-2015 02:20 PM
  4. ajj3085's Avatar
    And in a few months if another new Lumia is announced for Verizon you will make this call again and switch again?
    I have never understood people that switch carriers because of a new phone. It sounds so ridiculous.
    Even if that is ONE of your reasons for switching, do not put it out there as the primary reason. Saying it is your only reason for switching, you come across as someone that has his/her priorities out of order, and very fickle.
    Fickle? who the hell cares about their carrier? they're all interchangeable. Given that, why not go for the phone you want? That's what the rest of the world does, just pop in a new sim.
    920Walker likes this.
    10-10-2015 02:42 PM
  5. Guzzler3's Avatar
    Paul Thurrott has an interesting article, "https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/windows-phone/6746/your-fear-of-limited-lumia-availability-is-misplaced" to read about this.

    In the comments section there is feedback from someone who went to an MS Store and was told it's not that the Verizon radio bands aren't in the chipset (which they are by default in both the 808 and 810), it's that MS has specifically locked out CDMA and band 13 in firmware. Which follows back to what Paul was told by MS execs about carrier relationships.
    Welcome to the MATRIX.

    People, people, it's all about CONTROL. Specifically, who controls the updates to the phone. How many of us gotten hosed because the CARRIER delayed, or just didn't allow updates to our phone?

    W10, is a dynamic O/S, meaning that MS is always updating something in the core O/S or firmware. Currently, most of our phones in the USA are branded, carrier locked, meaning that if MS has a core O/S or firmware update, it is sent to the carriers, which is then sent to the phone. Right now the carrier is control, because they don't always allow the updates out. Remember all the discussions of who got the Black, and Denim firmware updates? Remember how people got pissed off because the carrier wouldn't validate the firmware? I can tell you that Microsoft remembers!

    Microsoft is tired of all of this. They are changing the game, like Apple did, they are trying to get rid of the carrier bottleneck. I have a feeling that they struck a deal with AT&T that AT&T will not hamstring or delay any updates this time, and just allow Microsoft to push out the updates (or at least I hope this is true).

    Because of the nature of GSM this allows Microsoft to offer directly from their store an unlocked, unbranded phone which you just put in a SIM card and go. The problem is with CDMA...

    Right now CDMA requires extra testing, and approval of the carrier. Verizon wants control, period. But MS wants and needs control, like Apple, to provide a consistent experience on W10M. Until these two come to an agreement that basically bypasses Verizon for any updates, things aren't going to change.

    The best thing Verizon users can do, is continue to complain to Verizon about wanting the 950/950XL. Hopefully, with enough shouting, this might cause Verizon to rethink about who has control of the updates and just let Microsoft do the heavy lifting of testing and pushing out updates.

    Because as others have pointed out, the chipset in the phone does support CDMA, it just isn't turned on. Theoretically, it's just a firmware update to "flip a bit" and turn on all the CDMA bands.
    Schnuffi likes this.
    10-10-2015 02:48 PM
  6. bulls96's Avatar
    twitter-thurrot.pngI asked Paul Thurrot on twitter if the unlocked versions will work on Verizon and he said No.
    10-10-2015 02:51 PM
  7. oldpueblo's Avatar
    He says it well here, guys everyone just needs to show Verizon your displeasure. Sadly we all know they'll ignore it and the only way to really prove it is with your money. Those of you that have no other choice other than Verizon, I feel you bros. :(

    (skip to 45:00)

    10-10-2015 02:54 PM
  8. Dusan Randj's Avatar
    In the US, its also a matter of geographical area, population densities, and frequency allocations.

    Where I live, ATT has very poor to nonexistent coverage while Verizon has very, very good coverage. Its a historical artifact, as our first carriers were small, CDMA based regionals. They built the customers bases, and operated in the frequencies that made their consolidation under Verizon foregone conclusions.

    ATT meanwhile, had almost no access to frequency in my area until they converted to GSM. By that time however, everyone was already a customer of a CDMA carrier, and eventually, Verizon. ATT simply felt they couldn't peel enough customers away from Verizon to make extensive network investments. They'll support coverage along Interstate highway routes, but that's about it.
    Man, that really sucks. It really sounds like they are ripping you off, paying so much and not having good coverage... Well..
    10-10-2015 03:04 PM
  9. MikeSo's Avatar
    From Thurrott's article

    Microsoft has conceded the smart phone market. There isnt some secret super-push to get Windows phones into the hands of carriers, folks. Microsoft is simply doing what it has to do. It is selling phones via friendly carriers and via its own store. And thats it.

    This isnt bad news. Its the best we can do given the failure of Windows phone in the marketplace. And rather than fret over a carrier-locked phone only selling via AT&T, what we should be doing is celebrating that we can buy any of these new phones, directly from Microsoft, in unlocked form, and for hundreds of dollars less than equivalent Samsung or iPhone flagships. This is good news, not bad news.
    Exactly. This is where we are now, and it's actually BETTER than before. With the exception of Verizon customers on contract, everyone else is better off - we can buy an unlocked, unbranded Windows Phone directly from Microsoft, getting regular updates.

    The big question mark is what this will do to apps - but let's face it, that issue wouldn't have been solved with a Verizon phone.

    All in all, we as "Windows Phone enthusiasts" have it better with this model than the previous carrier-based one.
    a5cent, libra89 and aximtreo like this.
    10-10-2015 03:09 PM
  10. ajj3085's Avatar
    OK, then what you write doesn't mean the same as what you are thinking. You say "allow" when you should say "support". To me, not allowing means that it will not work; it will be blocked. The way you say "not allow", that makes me think along the lines of "blacklist". Maybe my English comprehension is bad!

    I do not know about the legality of blocking phones, but as far as I know Verizon has never done it. What makes you think they would?
    I think your comprehension is off, and allowed as he's been using it is fine. Not allowed does mean you'd be blocked. Verizon has a whitelist. If you're not on the whitelist you can't activate your SIM. Once the SIM is active though the IMEI isn't checked again against the whitelist (but would be against the blacklist, for stolen phones). Sprint has a whitelist too, and always checks IMEI regardless of whether the SIM is active. Not on the list, no access. They don't need a blacklist though, they just remove the phone from the whitelist and it's blocked.

    The fact that you can workaround Verizon's method isn't really relevant, and i suspect is something newish. They have a history of controlling what can use their network, the argument being if they didn't control it people would blame them when really the issue might be the phone's hardware or software. I believe they used to more aggressively block devices, but tolerate the workaround today. But since someone said if you do that it shows on your account page as non vzw, i suspect if you have a problem and try calling them they'll tell out to pound sand because you didn't get your phone from them.

    I doubt there'd be any legal issue with blocking models of phones, as they had done just that for years. And they'd just say they are concerned about the model behaving badly on their network, or maybe just to say FU to MS.
    MikeSo, aximtreo and tgp like this.
    10-10-2015 03:34 PM
  11. mjperry51's Avatar
    The reps don't know anything. Looking at the specs it does support all the SAME needed CDMA bands the 735 has plus a ton more.
    There are two aspects to phone working -- the radio and the protocol.

    The radio is the band part -- it is protocol agnostic. It may support the RF side -- if the protocol (CDMA, WCDMA, GSM, EVDO, etc) doesn't match, the radio is useless.

    The radio in the phone may operate in the necessary bands for CDMA -- the phone does not support the appropriate codecs to integrate with the voice/text channels.

    Too many people taking out of turn who don't know what they're talking about. . .
    10-10-2015 03:54 PM
  12. JetFixxxer's Avatar
    I'm starting to hate Verizon Wireless.
    10-10-2015 06:12 PM
  13. ltjordan24's Avatar
    I'm a Verizon subscriber and I have been with WP for several years (Trophy - 822 - 928 - Icon currently) and I'm pissed off too but can you really blame Microsoft? Verizon says all the right things and then screws Microsoft over every time. We had to wait eight months before we got the 8.1 update even though there was nothing wrong with it (I joined the preview program and used it for months before it was officially released and NEVER had an issue) and every phone that Microsoft does announce gets held back for several months and then gets a quiet release AFTER a new iPhone or Android flagship gets released. The only carrier worse than Verizon when it comes to supporting the Windows Phone/Mobile OS is Sprint. So, honestly, I can't be mad at Microsoft for this decision. Hopefully, unlocked means that it will work on all carriers because I would rather just buy it directly from them and use it on whatever gives me the best service and price.
    aximtreo likes this.
    10-10-2015 08:08 PM
  14. luxnws's Avatar
    From Thurrott's article



    Exactly. This is where we are now, and it's actually BETTER than before. With the exception of Verizon customers on contract, everyone else is better off - we can buy an unlocked, unbranded Windows Phone directly from Microsoft, getting regular updates.

    The big question mark is what this will do to apps - but let's face it, that issue wouldn't have been solved with a Verizon phone.

    All in all, we as "Windows Phone enthusiasts" have it better with this model than the previous carrier-based one.
    What Thurrot's article does is put an exclamation point on something that many on Windows Phone fans sites never believed even after Microsoft took the Nokia write-off - that Windows Phone is a niche product and Microsoft will maintain it as a niche product.

    It is a fantasy (and has been a fantasy for years) to think that Windows Phones will be competing against Android or Apple head-to-head in the marketplace. It will be more like a Volvo competing against GM, Ford, Chrysler in the U.S. People here buy Volvos but not many.

    Maybe Panos Panay's team can work some magic with a Surface Phone next year.
    10-10-2015 08:30 PM
  15. Sick Freak's Avatar
    Maybe Panos Panay's team can work some magic with a Surface Phone next year.
    I think a lot of of expect this. My guess it's at least a year out.
    10-10-2015 09:26 PM
  16. tale 85's Avatar
    I think a lot of of expect this. My guess it's at least a year out.
    If they've laid enough ground work that sounds about right. But think about it. This guy pulled off the one thing at the show that nobody saw coming. And I don't think the idea of the Surface Phone came about when he took over Devices.
    You might be right. But you won't see a surprised look on my face if it lands this spring or early summer. These Surface guys are sneaky.
    10-10-2015 09:35 PM
  17. tale 85's Avatar
    What Thurrot's article does is put an exclamation point on something that many on Windows Phone fans sites never believed even after Microsoft took the Nokia write-off - that Windows Phone is a niche product and Microsoft will maintain it as a niche product.

    It is a fantasy (and has been a fantasy for years) to think that Windows Phones will be competing against Android or Apple head-to-head in the marketplace. It will be more like a Volvo competing against GM, Ford, Chrysler in the U.S. People here buy Volvos but not many.

    Maybe Panos Panay's team can work some magic with a Surface Phone next year.
    While we're using cars to put this thing in perspective, and it's been happening a few times today. I've heard 911, and Bentley mentioned. So here's another one. A few years ago someone asked a Mazda designer where we were headed. His answer was something like this.
    We don't want to be in everybody's top ten choices, we want to be the #1 choice of enthusiasts.
    That one just might work here. Microsoft doesn't need to dominate the phone market. It will be just one branch of a complete system.
    libra89 and aximtreo like this.
    10-10-2015 09:47 PM
  18. Mr. MacPhisto's Avatar
    I think this is an awfully long thread of assumptions, which will not be solved until someone gets one and pops a Verizon SIM into it. Note that other 'universal' devices have had issues. Over at an Android forum, I saw "My guess is that IMEIs for the Moto X Pure Edition from Motorola havent been loaded into Verizons systems yet and thats why phones cant be activated." Other sites talk about popping a Verizon SIM into a Nexus of some flavor and if the SIM had been registered it worked, but you couldn't register a new SIM in the phone. I'd say, when we get one, find a friend with a current Verizon SIM, or use your own, and pop it in there, and tweet, post, shout from a minaret, your findings. Short of any official announcement, all this is speculation. I will be getting one of these, though I am on AT&T, and will hunt up a friend with Verizon and try it. To much else to do between now and then to agonize over it.
    It's not speculation that the CDMA bands are not supported in the official documentation. That's no assumption. They're not listed. They are listed for the 735, which does work on Verizon. If the phone cannot access the CDMA bands, regardless of if they are there and blocked or whatever, then it will not work with Verizon since it needs CDMA to even handshake with the LTE network.

    I know A LOT of people have issues with the Moto X and we are weeks out from first shipments. Verizon doesn't want you using these things. They'll activate them if you threaten to call the FCC or threaten to leave VZW, but they'll make it a hassle.

    I really think this issue with the Moto X, the Nexus 6, and even the iPhone 6s unlocked is why Microsoft has blocked the CDMA bands, if they are on the chip. I think they are, but Microsoft probably won't unlock the CDMA bands until they are sure users will not have an issue activating the phone on those networks.

    For all we know, they tried using them on VZW and Sprint without any success or little success, so they decided to not go in that direction at the moment.
    10-10-2015 10:20 PM
  19. DavidinCT's Avatar
    I'm starting to hate Verizon Wireless.
    Beyond HATE at this point. Sure Phone signal is good, no issues or complaints there (cant remember the last time I had a dropped call). Their policies and clear hate for Windows Phone and Microsoft....Screw Verizon

    Verizon customers, YOU ARE NOT GETTING THE 950 or 950XL on Verizon, It's not compatible with their network and Microsoft CLEARLY has say they are not working with carriers that screwed them over in the past and Verizon was at the TOP OF THE LIST.

    The DREAM is over, if you want this phone and you live in the US, AT&T or TMOUS is your ONLY option...

    This thread should be closed and this post should be a sticky.... seriously..
    MikeSo, libra89 and Frank Kajtazi like this.
    10-10-2015 10:46 PM
  20. NOLATechy's Avatar
    Completely agree. This is why I have been calling VZW and complaining that if I can't get the 950 XL on their network, I will simply close out my accounts and move my business to AT&T. Let's face it, there isn't ANY other phone like this one ANYWHERE! Apple, Google, Samsung, etc, none of them can plug in a USB-C cable and become a Windows 10 PC. None of them! Therefore, I want this phone and ONLY this phone! And if Verizon or T-Mobile, or Sprint won't offer it, then they won't get my business. Hello AT&T! I have already confirmed with AT&T that they will be offering both the Lumia 950 AND the Lumia 950 XL, so Verizon better get onboard while they still have a change to get MS to change the radios or they will be losing my business. More of you should decide to do the same thing. This is how Apple got started with the iPhone. It started as an AT&T exclusive because VZW wouldn't relinquish control of the updates, so Apple went to AT&T. VZW changed their minds when a lot of their business started leaving for AT&T because they all wanted the iPhone. Now, they will all want the Lumia 950 "PC" phone! And, as sales increase, so will app development.
    10-10-2015 10:53 PM
  21. Sick Freak's Avatar
    Yea, they might surprise us, but I'm also thinking of a couple of things:

    1. Surface is more than a brand - it's an 'experience,' so I think they'll set a high bar..
    2. They'll want it on all carriers, which means all carriers given time test it, etc.
    10-10-2015 11:10 PM
  22. pechio's Avatar
    Well, VZW does not care about 3% users, but they are mistaken. If I have to move to AT&T then I will take my other 2 iPhones too, additional 6%.
    10-10-2015 11:47 PM
  23. MikeSo's Avatar
    While we're using cars to put this thing in perspective, and it's been happening a few times today. I've heard 911, and Bentley mentioned. So here's another one. A few years ago someone asked a Mazda designer where we were headed. His answer was something like this.
    We don't want to be in everybody's top ten choices, we want to be the #1 choice of enthusiasts.
    That one just might work here. Microsoft doesn't need to dominate the phone market. It will be just one branch of a complete system.
    However, as I say every time the cellphone/car comparison is done... all cars run on the same gasoline. That's a big advantage for a small car maker.

    I guess the best we can hope for is that Windows Phone will be the Tesla of smartphones? :)
    10-10-2015 11:49 PM
  24. 920Walker's Avatar
    Who was responsible for pulling the Coexist sticker off the bumper?
    dkediger likes this.
    10-10-2015 11:58 PM
  25. falconrap's Avatar
    Verizon is already starting to see some of the effects of T-Mobile's changes. It's why Verizon has simplified their plans and started offering large incentives to come back/switch to them. If enough WP users tell them they are leaving Verizon and the reasons why, I think you'll see an impact on them. They continue to spend a lot of money on tower upgrades, and need to continue to do so to increase LTE speed, bandwidth, and capability so that they can retire the CDMA service. They don't want to lose even 1% of their customers right now when they are already bleeding some off more than normal. It's not everyday you see Verizon offering the incentives they are currently offering.

    As I said before, I'm tired of their...poo...just tired of it. I'm lucky that the area I live in is serviced well enough by AT&T. As such I will switch, and I will make absolutely sure they understand why I am switching. If they ever pull their heads out of their collective posterior orifices, I'll look at coming back. I will not be held hostage to a carrier on what phone I can get ever again. I'm done. I will have my 950XL and they can kiss my...
    10-11-2015 12:04 AM
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