12-02-2015 11:33 PM
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  1. Frank Kajtazi's Avatar
    Problem is people don't want to switch,if Microsoft really wanted to expand their market share in the U.S. with these phones,the #1 priority would have to been to make them available to all carriers,I take this as MS not caring,and to me that is unbelievable and unacceptable!
    10-07-2015 02:35 PM
  2. Johnny Tremaine's Avatar
    Maybe MS should all but abandon the US market, and maybe that's their objective.
    Even if they wanted to they can't, because the U.S. is where most of the developers are. If you ignore the U.S., you'll never get wide dev support, and the platform dies.

    Nokia, with Symbian, learned this too late. They had a nice business selling devices around the world for years. Once smartphones became all about the apps you run, the Nokians tried to ramp up a U.S. presence, opened an office in Silicon Valley to be near developers, but it was all too little too late.
    And Symbian (and Maemo) died.
    10-07-2015 02:35 PM
  3. colonel pepper's Avatar
    I heard it is all but confirmed as a AT&T exclusive. Which is dumb since AT&T only control 34% of the market share, so they are ******* away the other 66% of the market. I don't know if this phone will make it on only one carrier.
    10-07-2015 02:39 PM
  4. maevinj's Avatar
    I heard it is all but confirmed as a AT&T exclusive. Which is dumb since AT&T only control 34% of the market share, so they are ******* away the other 66% of the market. I don't know if this phone will make it on only one carrier.
    Cnet has updated their article to state that the 950 is NOT an AT&T exclusive now.
    10-07-2015 02:54 PM
  5. JaySeeDoubleYou's Avatar
    I guess I will just have to hold my breath til there's official word from Microsoft and/or Verizon on the matter, - though even if it does all turn out okay in the end for Windows fans on VZW, I'm still super mad that this thing was handled in such a way as to leave us in this frustrating, heartbreaking lurch in the first place!

    If this is Verizon's fault, I will be FURIOUS with Verizon, if this is Microsoft's fault, I will be FURIOUS with Microsoft, and if this is both of their fault, I will be FURIOUS with both of them

    However, I will say this: regardless of who is at fault here, in terms of the consequences, it's a settled matter: I'm still circumstantially bound to Verizon, for reasons available upon request, while I had simply wanted to be able to share in Microsoft's universal one-Windows/Continuum vision that I had bought into.

    I had simply intended to have a 950XL IN CONJUNCTION with the iPhone6+ I'm typing this on, and the Nexus6p I planned on buying outright at tax time. I had wanted to go tri-platform and experience the best of all of them (though I was cheering more passionately for MS than I was for any of the others).

    In this push and pull Microsoft loses either way, and I'll just have to go dual-platform rather than tri-platform like I wanted (if I don't come away from all this just so jaded that I simply say "screw multi-platform" altogether). So in the tug of war between Verizon and The 950XL, Verizon will win - for better or for worse, and that's that.

    Now, where the question of who's fault this is DOES become important to me is this: If this is all Verizon's fault, then I will still be in Microsoft's corner, and will join in later when I can (whether that be a Verizon variant later, or a good opportunity to jump to AT&T - which frankly, I don't even want to do as their network is much crappier in Des Moines than V). But if this is Microsoft's fault (in whole or in part), then screw them!

    They talk a universal one Windows world that they want all of us to be in on, get us on board and even passionate about their vision and then SHUT US OUT FROM IT! Fine! They can fend for themselves without me. I'm done!

    I don't care how cool the phone is (and it is super cool, maybe the coolest ever), or how grand and glorious their vision is (and it's by far the most compelling vision on the market) it's just not worth all this, and in fact, if all this really is the case then the cooler the phone, and the better the vision, the worse the situation and the madder I am at Microsoft.

    So they'd better start offering up some good answers, or they will lose me, and many others, no doubt!
    baclark1466 likes this.
    10-07-2015 02:54 PM
  6. GMC262's Avatar
    T-Mobile seems to be opting out for the time being.
    T-Mobile: AT&T carriage of Lumia 950 is exclusive | Pocketnow
    10-07-2015 03:02 PM
  7. tgp's Avatar
    Sure they are. Sprint and Verizon do it all the time. As far as I know there is no requirement at all that any carrier allows ANY phone. They can lock out any phone they want. The only thing they now legally have to do is keep customers from being locked IN to their network. The reason GSM phones are allowed on any network is because that's how the standard works. It's not a legal matter.
    From what I understand, there is something in Verizon's agreement with the FCC about allowing any compatible phone on their network. It is all part of the deal that does not allow Verizon to throttle unlimited users, or to block apps, or to SIM lock their LTE phones. That's what I'm talking about.

    Unless you have evidence to the contrary, everything I've ever read says that Verizon and Sprint have 100% say in which phones they allow. The reason they allow unlocked iPhones and other popular phones is because it's an advantage to them. They could block them if they wanted.
    Sure they can, just like any other carrier. All carriers have a blacklist.

    Agreed though that in this specific case it's obviously a hardware limitation on the part of the phone. We don't know if Verizon would have allowed it or not, but since the phone doesn't have CDMA anyway (according to the released specs currently at least) it's a theoretical question. My guess is they wouldn't bother. Maybe they would.
    Verizon could have blacklisted Microsoft phones. We have no reason to believe that they would have though. If the 950/950XL/550 had Verizon's CDMA radios, they would by default work on Verizon. Would Verizon have deliberately blacklisted them? I doubt it, but I do not know.

    It seems to me that you are of the understanding that unlocked but Verizon-compatible phones do not work on Verizon by default. If this is what you think, you are incorrect. They by default work on Verizon, just like any GSM carrier. They would need to be deliberately blacklisted to not work.

    Either way, it is a moot point. They are not Verizon compatible.

    I think you're getting whitelisting confused with the phone actually working. The aforementioned factory unlocked iPhones and Androids that worked on Verizon were not whitelisted until recently. Whitelisting basically means that the carrier officially recognizes them, supports them, activates them, allow BYOD discounts, and whatever else it involves. Basically they are treated as the carrier's own phone. Any compatible phone will actually work on Verizon unless it is blacklisted. Since the unlocked devices were compatible, they worked even though they were not whitelisted. If you had an active Verizon SIM card, all you needed to do was to insert it in said device, and it worked. Lots of us did it long before our devices were whitelisted.
    10-07-2015 03:10 PM
  8. anon(5383410)'s Avatar
    And this very thing happens when you go into a store and ask about a WP. W10M is likely to collect dust and die in carrier stores for this very reason. I don't believe MS wanted to scale back carrier availability considering 90% of sales in the US happen inside carrier stores. MS was forced to because A] other carriers don't care (especially Verizon if they can't control the updates and bloatware) and B] selling them in stores was futile because salespeople are very biased towards iPhone and galaxies.

    The market is too saturated and the carriers have too much control in the US for WP/W10M to be given a fair shake. It's too saturated and feelings for one's preferred phone platform is too entrenched for WP/W10M to grow. Maybe MS should all but abandon the US market, and maybe that's their objective. Focus on Europe and developing nations. Projections show that the Indian, Chinese, and African smartphone market will dwarf the US market by 2030. Maybe MS is smart enough to focus on these long-term goals now.
    Well this is part of the reason they probably choose AT&T. Power network and they can sell their unlocked phones there no problem. rgeardless of how Verizon and the other carriers feel about Windows Phone's chance at surviving, if they sell well enough unlocked throgh MS and the buzz continues to build they will change their tune. I' liken it to musicians who opt to go independent to build a fanbase and buzz instead of going straight to major labels who will drop you if you don explode immediately.

    I would even argue that even if you're on AT&T you should buy an unlocked one directly from MS. If they take off even Verizon would reconsider. Look at Band and Surface. Best Buy was reluctant to carry them until they picked up steam and now they're pretty much a lock to not only carry them but give them prominent display. If they sell well enough through MS and are marketed well even Verizon will buckle.

    I'd like to see MS piggyback the NFL/Surface deal by incorporating Lumias into it. I think the NFL partnership worked wonders for the device.
    10-07-2015 03:13 PM
  9. MikeSo's Avatar
    From what I understand, there is something in Verizon's agreement with the FCC about allowing any compatible phone on their network. It is all part of the deal that does not allow Verizon to throttle unlimited users, or to block apps, or to SIM lock their LTE phones. That's what I'm talking about.



    Sure they can, just like any other carrier. All carriers have a blacklist.



    Verizon could have blacklisted Microsoft phones. We have no reason to believe that they would have though. If the 950/950XL/550 had Verizon's CDMA radios, they would by default work on Verizon. Would Verizon have deliberately blacklisted them? I doubt it, but I do not know.

    It seems to me that you are of the understanding that unlocked but Verizon-compatible phones do not work on Verizon by default. If this is what you think, you are incorrect. They by default work on Verizon, just like any GSM carrier. They would need to be deliberately blacklisted to not work.

    Either way, it is a moot point. They are not Verizon compatible.



    I think you're getting whitelisting confused with the phone actually working. The aforementioned factory unlocked iPhones and Androids that worked on Verizon were not whitelisted until recently. Whitelisting basically means that the carrier officially recognizes them, supports them, activates them, allow BYOD discounts, and whatever else it involves. Basically they are treated as the carrier's own phone. Any compatible phone will actually work on Verizon unless it is blacklisted. Since the unlocked devices were compatible, they worked even though they were not whitelisted. If you had an active Verizon SIM card, all you needed to do was to insert it in said device, and it worked. Lots of us did it long before our devices were whitelisted.
    "Whitelisting basically means that the carrier officially recognizes them, supports them, activates them, allow BYOD discounts, and whatever else it involves. Basically they are treated as the carrier's own phone. Any compatible phone will actually work on Verizon unless it is blacklisted."

    This is both not true, and it is. Did you read the link I gave? You can only get this to happen by tricking Verizon into thinking you are using a different phone at activation. Their whitelisting is based on the phone where the SIM was activated. Whitelisting doesn't mean anything besides allowing the phones with the correct IMEI to run on their network. Has nothing to do with discounts or support.

    You will have to find sources for anything you say at this point because it goes against everything I've ever read. It goes against the link I gave you, it goes against the experience of users of phones. The only way you can get Nexus 6 phones working on Verizon is to either buy them from Google or trick Verizon into thinking you have another phone. They whitelist the phones they allow, they don't blacklist the ones they don't allow.

    As for the deal with FCC, that is about Verizon allow their phones to be used OUTSIDE the Verizon network. It is NOT about allowing all other phones to be used on Verizon. Verizon phones are mandated to be unlocked. Not the other way around. Obviously, as evidenced by the fact that people can't activate a new non-Verizon unlocked phone with a new SIM unless Verizon has approved it.
    10-07-2015 03:15 PM
  10. DavidinCT's Avatar
    We Verizon users could be all crying now but, the phone is not even released yet. Not for another month. Verizon could make a statement about carring new WP devices soon, who knows ?

    No, in the current form of the listed specs of the 950 or 950XL WILL NOT work on Verizon's network. END OF STORY.

    No hacks or software mods will get it working on Verizon.

    Your only option is to call Verizon and complain, send emails and tweet about it... The only way they would look at it if there was enough people being very vocal.

    We never know, in 30 days, Verizon can make a statement about carrying them. Verizon is a Microsoft partner, they have carried Nokia and Microsoft phones, so maybe it will be a 960....need to give it a little time.
    MikeSo and libra89 like this.
    10-07-2015 03:19 PM
  11. to_be_announced's Avatar
    We Verizon users could be all crying now but, the phone is not even released yet. Not for another month. Verizon could make a statement about carring new WP devices soon, who knows ?

    No, in the current form of the listed specs of the 950 or 950XL WILL NOT work on Verizon's network. END OF STORY.

    No hacks or software mods will get it working on Verizon.

    Your only option is to call Verizon and complain, send emails and tweet about it... The only way they would look at it if there was enough people being very vocal.

    We never know, in 30 days, Verizon can make a statement about carrying them. Verizon is a Microsoft partner, they have carried Nokia and Microsoft phones, so maybe it will be a 960....need to give it a little time.
    The last thing I want is a carrier branded phone. I much prefer to get it unlocked. I suppose at this point I wouldn't have a choice and a 960 option would be better than going to iPhone or Android. Still don't see it happening though.
    10-07-2015 03:31 PM
  12. dorelse's Avatar
    I think our best bet (Sprint/Verizon/CDMA MVNO's) for WM10 might be that HTC/Samsung/LG would bring their phones to those network operators? Not sure if that would happen, but HTC & Sprint have always been chummy...
    10-07-2015 03:36 PM
  13. to_be_announced's Avatar
    I think our best bet (Sprint/Verizon/CDMA MVNO's) for WM10 might be that HTC/Samsung/LG would bring their phones to those network operators? Not sure if that would happen, but HTC & Sprint have always been chummy...
    Only problem with this is if those phone manufacturers do come out with a Windows phone, it would most likely just be a previously released phone with Windows instead of Android. Means doubtful for Windows Hello and/or Continuum. I know the Acer Jade Primo is coming at some point and will have Continuum though. But would much rather have a Microsoft device.
    10-07-2015 03:44 PM
  14. TexasLabRat's Avatar
    OK ... for all of us "pissed off" at Verizon customers - IF, "the 950XL and 950" are offered "unlocked" does that technically make it work on Verizon in the US market - OR - does "Verizon" still have to "carry it"?

    PLEASE SAY YES !!!
    Without CDMA "stuff" in the phone, I'm not sure how Verizon would activate it. While the LTE radio can work on a physical level, it's the logical activation as a Verizon-linked account that would matter I would think. So an unlocked 950XL would certainly be capable of roaming on Verizon assuming the bands matched up on tower versus what the phone has...but I doubt you could bring that phone in as a "native" device linked to a Verizon account. I could be wrong tho...but from what I understand it's probably not going to happen.

    With iphones...it's a different situation since apple has seen fit to include both CDMA and GSM radio guts in the phone making it a universal device that can be activated on all carriers. Would be nice to see that on windows phones at some point to finally break the linkage between devices and carriers in the U.S.
    10-07-2015 03:45 PM
  15. dorelse's Avatar
    Only problem with this is if those phone manufacturers do come out with a Windows phone, it would most likely just be a previously released phone with Windows instead of Android. Means doubtful for Windows Hello and/or Continuum. I know the Acer Jade Primo is coming at some point and will have Continuum though. But would much rather have a Microsoft device.
    I absolutely agree on wanting a MS device. Don't think that is going to be an option without moving carriers for me anyway.
    10-07-2015 03:52 PM
  16. tgp's Avatar
    Whitelisting doesn't mean anything besides allowing the phones with the correct IMEI to run on their network. Has nothing to do with discounts or support.
    The technical definition of Whitelist is "a list or register of entities that are being provided a particular privilege, service, mobility, access or recognition. Entities on the list will be accepted, approved and/or recognized. Whitelisting is the reverse of blacklisting, the practice of identifying entities that are denied, unrecognised, or ostracised."

    I think we're getting hung up on what "whitelisting" means as it pertains to Verizon. Based on the official definition, I'm not sure that "whitelist" is 100% accurate in this case. "Whitelist" means that something is not allowed by default, but is on the special permissions list. The factory unlocked phones were not whitelisted until recently, but yet they worked the moment they were released. On Verizon, non-whitelisted phones are allowed, but not supported.

    Because they were not whitelisted, Verizon would not activate them, but if you already had an active SIM to use, the devices worked perfectly (hey, I think I've mentioned that before!). Verizon allowed them to run on their network before they were whitelisted, but they didn't support them. Users couldn't get the BYOD discount for example. You also couldn't make changes to your account. I always had a backup Verizon phone around. I would put my SIM card in the backup phone, log on to my account and make whatever changes I wanted, and then put the SIM card back in my non-whitelisted Nexus 6.

    If you want a source to back up the above paragraph, go to the link you posted earlier.

    The devices that worked but were not whitelisted were not officially recognized by Verizon. My account said that I was using a "NON-VZW DEVICE", but yet it worked. When the non-Verizon Nexus 6's were whitelisted, it switched to "NEXUS 6 NON VZW", which is what it shows now.

    Trust me, I've been there and done that. I know from first hand experience how it works. Before my Nexus 6 was whitelisted, I wanted to get a new SIM card. My previous device had a micro SIM so I cut it to nano size so I could use it. Later I wanted to get a real nano SIM. I went to a Verizon store. However, they couldn't do anything because my phone was not whitelisted. I went home and grabbed a Verizon Moto X (2014) I happened to have at the time, and went to Verizon again. They activated a new nano SIM on my Moto X, I inserted it in my Nexus 6, and I was good to go. One of the Verizon employees even wanted me to put it in my Nexus 6 there at the store so she could see how it works!
    Laura Knotek and MikeSo like this.
    10-07-2015 03:52 PM
  17. sdittmar's Avatar
    I thought I had read that the only thing VZW has to "activate" is the SIM card, so if they don't support activation through particular phones you could just activate the SIM in any other phone that they do support, then swap it into the unlocked phone and it should still work, assuming the phone supports the necessary frequencies.
    10-07-2015 04:18 PM
  18. Sick Freak's Avatar
    Went on a Verizon chat to bring up the lack of support for the new Windows phones. The reps exact words were "I do understand, but why settle for something less when you can get the amazing iphones or samsung phones." I LOL'd at that one. Pretty ridiculous.
    Yea... this is very common. I have gone to many VZW stores around the country (including one in Seattle) and the reps often flatly state that there is no such thing as a Windows based phone. And then when I show it to them (which is usually hiding behind an Android display - or I show it to them on their own website,) they immediately do the hard sell for an Android phone. I've even seen them try to push people away from iPhones in favor of Android. Once, and only once, did I find a rep that actually admitted that they had Windows Phones (and he actually had one in his pocket for his personal use.)
    10-07-2015 04:28 PM
  19. Sick Freak's Avatar
    AT&T is doing a promotion where you get $300 to switch your line over from another carrier. Really tempted to go that route for the XL when its available. If Verizon wanted to support this phone they would have it already.

    It's quite obvious that Verizon believes that Android is their baby and they tolerate iPhone. But they have no love for Windows 10.
    Isn't the $300 only if you switch and get an iPhone?
    10-07-2015 04:49 PM
  20. dksf42's Avatar
    After watching the Microsoft event live yesterday, hearing Satya Nadella and then seeing this today = I seriously think we are "shooting too low"!!!

    It's really NOT about "Microsoft and Verizon" = it's all about Satya Nadella "empowering every person on the planet"!

    HOW can we accomplish that when "Verizon" - who controls 50% of the US market - Microsoft DOES NOT have a 950XL and 950 on Verizon???

    Satya Nadella: Microsoft exists to empower people - Microsoft News

    Dear Satya Nadella = PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE "empower us on Verizon" - OR - explain to us 'why NOT"!

    Signed,

    Your LEGIONS of loyal, Windows Phone user on Verizon who "want to buy the Lumia 950XL and 950 in November 2015 or ASAP
    baclark1466 and Mandos like this.
    10-07-2015 04:55 PM
  21. scolab's Avatar
    If MSFT really wants to be a contender in the mobile field, they need to do whatever it takes to get Verizon, the largest US carrier, in the fold. Spiff the sales people, buy them cars, houses....whatever, just win them over. Until that happens, WP will be stuck on the back shelf as an afterthought....sadly.
    10-07-2015 04:56 PM
  22. MikeSo's Avatar
    Trust me, I've been there and done that. I know from first hand experience how it works. Before my Nexus 6 was whitelisted, I wanted to get a new SIM card. My previous device had a micro SIM so I cut it to nano size so I could use it. Later I wanted to get a real nano SIM. I went to a Verizon store. However, they couldn't do anything because my phone was not whitelisted. I went home and grabbed a Verizon Moto X (2014) I happened to have at the time, and went to Verizon again. They activated a new nano SIM on my Moto X, I inserted it in my Nexus 6, and I was good to go. One of the Verizon employees even wanted me to put it in my Nexus 6 there at the store so she could see how it works!
    Right. We are saying the exact same thing. You can get your non-Verizon phone to work ONLY if you trick the Verizon network into accepting your phone by first having the SIM card in an already approved phone. That's exactly what I have been saying too.

    Your implication when you started this tangent of the thread (as I understood it) was that the Nexus 6 ITSELF is somehow enough to be on the Verizon network. It is not. You can not go and get a brand new Verizon subscription for your non-Google Play, non-Verizon Nexus 6 unless you already own another Verizon phone (or, as the article suggests, you go into a Verizon store and copy an IMEI from a Verizon phone and then do it online using an IMEI to a phone you don't own). Thankfully, Verizon has left open a loophole for some customers.

    For non-Verizon Nexus 6 phones that HAVE been bought from the Google Play store, Verizon has whitelisted them, so you don't have to do a workaround. This is what Microsoft could have done, I assume, and what Verizon possibly might have declined to allow. I don't think Microsoft should've made policy based on a possible loophole in Verizon's whitelisting method.

    We're basically saying the same thing, except I am emphasizing the fact that to be truly allowed on the Verizon network, a phone has to be approved by Verizon. Otherwise you can just hope that there's a workaround.

    And of course, if the 950XL doesn't have CDMA it's irrelevant anyway whether there's still a loophole or not.
    theefman and tgp like this.
    10-07-2015 05:03 PM
  23. jt09xlt's Avatar
    Isn't the $300 only if you switch and get an iPhone?
    The rep I talked to earlier told me if going to a Next plan from another carrier you will get $300 - no mention of iphone period, if you bring your own device you will get a $100 credit and do not need to sign up for Next plan.
    10-07-2015 05:20 PM
  24. jacob103's Avatar
    The way Microsoft has treated Windows Phone is sad. No universal radios in these new phone just ruined my interests in Windows phone. They have completely left everyone on Sprint and Verizon dead in the water and I'm kinda of upset. Ive been a huge Windows Phone supporter but the fact that they didn't learn their lesson has got me ready to press the Apple button and just get an iPhone just like all the other bimbo consumers out there.
    Frank Kajtazi likes this.
    10-07-2015 05:20 PM
  25. jt09xlt's Avatar
    The way Microsoft has treated Windows Phone is sad. No universal radios in these new phone just ruined my interests in Windows phone. They have completely left everyone on Sprint and Verizon dead in the water and I'm kinda of upset. Ive been a huge Windows Phone supporter but the fact that they didn't learn their lesson has got me ready to press the Apple button and just get an iPhone just like all the other bimbo consumers out there.
    You realize it takes 2 to make a business decision. If you truly do want to take a stand and support the product then switch carriers. Quickest way to get a business to change their minds/policies is by hitting them without your buying power. The way Verizon has treated WP in the past I do not blame MSFT one bit for not putting CDMA radios in the device so that it will work on their network.
    theefman and 920Walker like this.
    10-07-2015 05:23 PM
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