Will an "unlocked" 950XL work on Verizon?

[DustinRyan]

Chicken-and-egg is exactly how I'd describe it. Verizon reps definitely don't promote or even consider Windows Phone an option. It gets laughed at. A lot. Because they don't understand it or use it. Everyone likes that reassurance that the phone they own, is the best phone to have. And no one owns Windows Phones. So therefore, it sucks (by their standards).

Verizon tries to promote occasionally. Maybe. Kinda. But it's because they don't think it will sell well, that they don't waste money on it.

If Verizon doesn't promote or put a lot of effort into educating customers, it won't sell.

On the other hand, if no one is interested, how could Verizon keep throwing money at Windows Phone with very little chance of making a return on their investment?


I used to hate Verizon for not giving Windows Phone a fighting chance. I started working for them over a year ago, and my tune has changed, slightly.

Of course I wish they supported Windows Phone more, and better. But from a business perspective, I get where they are coming from. I wouldn't throw money away knowing it won't come back.

The solution, I feel, is to call Verizon. Call and demand the phones you want. If they hear it enough, they will stock and support it. But after demanding it, we then need to buy it. And not from Microsoft. We need to buy it from Verizon to show that this phone is popular.

I hate buying from carriers, even though I sell for one, because it's not a business Verizon should be in. This is why we have this frustration with device support. If all phones were able to work across networks and carriers didn't have to worry about their own skin in the game to sell them, they wouldn't care what phone was on their network because it's not their business. But they made it their business because carriers want to be a one-stop-shop for all things on their networks, including devices.

iPhone is pushed because as much as we know iPhone is available on all carriers, some people still think that iPhones can only be bought from Apple, or that only AT&T still supports them. I can't tell you how many times people walk to our store and say, "You guys don't sell the iPhone, right? Only Samsung?" Worded exactly like that. It kills me. But we can't blame the customer. 90% of customers are low-to-no-tech savvy. They are just speaking based on how well we are educating them (not too well).

Android gets pushed because Verizon (and all carriers) would be SCREWED if they put all their eggs in the iPhone basket. Apple practically owns Verizon as it is. Apple has demands. Carriers give in to it, because they know Apple has the upper hand and can move their phone to any carrier it wants, and whichever carrier they take the phone away from, will likely go bankrupt in a few years. Carriers kneel to Apple. So they try to beef up Android, so they have something to fall back on if Apple flexes their muscle. Android has the best chance at competing with iPhone. Plus, there are many good Android Phones. As much as I prefer Windows Phone, really, it's a great time to buy any phone. They all do great things in many ways.

I don't have a solution for getting Windows Phones sold. My answer would be that Microsoft and Verizon would need to beef up marketing heavily, but even then, there is no guarantee it will do anything.

 

[JetFixxxer]

Like always I will be forced to go another phone because Verizon doesn't/won't carry it. I was happy when I was able to get a Windows Phone. Now it looks like my Icon will be my last phone for a long time.

 

[Sick Freak]

Great response, but from a customer perspective - at least mine, I find that the carriers treat Windows Phone quite differently. As the techie for my family and friends/acquaintances, I go into all the different carrier stores way too often. I find that VZW (many stores across the country) is pretty much hostile to Windows devices. After I explain the differences between the devices and IF the person wants to get the Windows device, almost every time, the VZW person tries to talk them out of it and push Android. (I'm currently a VZW customer and while I get several e-mails announcing new Android or iPhone devices, I've never gotten one for any Windows device.) Now, when we're in AT&T or T-Mobile, it's entirely different. T-Mobile seems to be more agnostic - they don't care which phone, as long as you buy their service. AT&T seems to be more positive about the Windows devices, and while they don't "push" them, they do a good job presenting them. (I don't think I've been in a Sprint store for years, so I don't have anything to say about them with regard to Windows devices.)

 

[MikeSo]

In the Windows Central news article about carrier availability, a point was brought up by someone that made a loit of sense: maybe the "AT&T only" strategy is simply because Microsoft is unsure of how the sales will go and due to their status as a very small player in mobile hardware they simply don't have the resources to launch simultaneously on all carriers.

Going AT&T and MS Store only at launch might simply be a way to gauge the market, and then if they can secure manufacturing for larger quantities and if there's demand, they might expand. They are not Apple or Samsung, and they don't have the same scale and clout. That's just the reality. Maybe they should try to get into retail with unlocked phones and not worry about carriers.

 

[Sick Freak]

I don't have a solution for getting Windows Phones sold. My answer would be that Microsoft and Verizon would need to beef up marketing heavily, but even then, there is no guarantee it will do anything.

Definitely agree on that - I don't recall seeing any Windows Phone commercials for any carrier (or just for the phone itself.) The only advertising I see by Microsoft is seeing the phones on different CBS TV shows (along with MSFT Surfaces.) And, of course, we see the Surfaces used in the NFL.

 

[Sick Freak]

In the Windows Central news article about carrier availability, a point was brought up by someone that made a loit of sense: maybe the "AT&T only" strategy is simply because Microsoft is unsure of how the sales will go and due to their status as a very small player in mobile hardware they simply don't have the resources to launch simultaneously on all carriers.

Going AT&T and MS Store only at launch might simply be a way to gauge the market, and then if they can secure manufacturing for larger quantities and if there's demand, they might expand. They are not Apple or Samsung, and they don't have the same scale and clout. That's just the reality. Maybe they should try to get into retail with unlocked phones and not worry about carriers.

I know for me, I'm swapping off VZW just because of the phone. (Coverage in my area is about the same between these 3 carriers.) I've been waiting way too long. I just have to figure out which is better for my family - AT&T or T-Mobile. And after I move, I know that I have several other people that I know that will follow me if they can.

 

[DustinRyan]

Great response, but from a customer perspective - at least mine, I find that the carriers treat Windows Phone quite differently. As the techie for my family and friends/acquaintances, I go into all the different carrier stores way too often. I find that VZW (many stores across the country) is pretty much hostile to Windows devices. After I explain the differences between the devices and IF the person wants to get the Windows device, almost every time, the VZW person tries to talk them out of it and push Android. (I'm currently a VZW customer and while I get several e-mails announcing new Android or iPhone devices, I've never gotten one for any Windows device.) Now, when we're in AT&T or T-Mobile, it's entirely different. T-Mobile seems to be more agnostic - they don't care which phone, as long as you buy their service. AT&T seems to be more positive about the Windows devices, and while they don't "push" them, they do a good job presenting them. (I don't think I've been in a Sprint store for years, so I don't have anything to say about them with regard to Windows devices.)

Carriers do treat Windows Phone differently. The reps usually don't use Windows Phone, and don't know how to support it (transfer contacts, photos, locate settings, etc.) so they avoid it like the plague. Carriers don't advertise because they see it as a waste of time and money if sales won't increase. It's a long term strategy, and not Verizon's burden to take on. It's Microsoft's. As long as Android is doing well, Verizon won't care too much about lending a hand to Microsoft, unfortunately.

As a Windows Phone fan, it kills me to see things go this way, but it's a business, and Windows Phone is a tough brand to get people on board when most have already "chosen sides."

I don't know a lot of people on AT&T with Windows Phones, but I do always, ALWAYS, see them displayed in their stores. And usually more than one. T-Mobile I think I've seen something similar, but I've actually seen a couple people using their Windows Phones. Usually always the super low end ones.

Sprint I never see anyone user Windows Phone, but I also never see anyone happy with Sprint where I live (Connecticut), with any phone, haha. Their service is quite bad here.

 

[tgp]

It's a long term strategy, and not Verizon's burden to take on. It's Microsoft's. As long as Android is doing well, Verizon won't care too much about lending a hand to Microsoft, unfortunately.

This is what I was wondering; why is pushing Windows Phone Verizon's, or any other carrier's, problem? I see it as Microsoft's baby.

I've also read that it would be a big advantage to the carriers to have a 3rd option, making it important that Windows Phone flourishes. Is there any validity to this? It doesn't seem like the carriers think they need another option besides iPhone and Android. If they thought so, wouldn't they push a 3rd one such as Windows Phone or BlackBerry even if it cost them (at least in the short term)?

I have no idea; I'm just thinking "out loud".

 

[oldpueblo]

I still feel one of the biggest hold-ups for WP is people just aren't willing to try it. It wasn't cool to use/like MS, they see all the bad press about no apps, and they won't even try it which means they miss out on all the positives that add up to a better experience in many ways. I've personally converted around 10 people to WP, and only two have switched back to Android for non-WP related reasons after 3+ years. One of them just approached me today though saying she was thinking of switching back to WP. People that aren't caught up in the flavor of the month apps (snapchat) tend to stay for the superior phone experience from what I can tell.

And just out of curiosity, you guys that have unlimited data how much do you actually use? I basically have unlimited because my work pays for it, but the most I use monthly is 5GB. That's with streaming whenever I want, hotspot, etc. If you look at the data sense app, how much data do you reasonably use? You might be surprised how little a cost difference there is to get a cap, and you might even save money with the incentives to get off of unlimited.

 

[DustinRyan]

This is what I was wondering; why is pushing Windows Phone Verizon's, or any other carrier's, problem? I see it as Microsoft's baby.

I've also read that it would be a big advantage to the carriers to have a 3rd option, making it important that Windows Phone flourishes. Is there any validity to this? It doesn't seem like the carriers think they need another option besides iPhone and Android. If they thought so, wouldn't they push a 3rd one such as Windows Phone or BlackBerry even if it cost them (at least in the short term)?

I have no idea; I'm just thinking "out loud".

I believe there is validity to this. If one manufacturer has too much power over a carrier, they can impose whatever rules they want like Apple does with iPhone (can't display any color around it, can't display next to non-iPhones, and can't even display directly next to iPad). Verizon has gotten cozy with Samsung to combat Apple's power, but once Samsung gets too big, Verizon will need to look elsewhere for a new "friend." If Microsoft can make Windows Phone popular, the power struggle becomes harder for the other guys to get any ground against Verizon. Same goes for other carriers, too, in the US. This is not an issue for other carriers, mostly because of GSM vs CDMA (especially outside the US).

The more balanced the ecosystem is, the fairer the game. That's my understanding. But don't quote me on it. I don't know if there is any actual evidence to support it. Just carriers and manufacturers puffing out their chests.

I still feel one of the biggest hold-ups for WP is people just aren't willing to try it. It wasn't cool to use/like MS, they see all the bad press about no apps, and they won't even try it which means they miss out on all the positives that add up to a better experience in many ways. I've personally converted around 10 people to WP, and only two have switched back to Android for non-WP related reasons after 3+ years. One of them just approached me today though saying she was thinking of switching back to WP. People that aren't caught up in the flavor of the month apps (snapchat) tend to stay for the superior phone experience from what I can tell.

And just out of curiosity, you guys that have unlimited data how much do you actually use? I basically have unlimited because my work pays for it, but the most I use monthly is 5GB. That's with streaming whenever I want, hotspot, etc. If you look at the data sense app, how much data do you reasonably use? You might be surprised how little a cost difference there is to get a cap, and you might even save money with the incentives to get off of unlimited.

Most people I encounter with unlimited data, I switch them to the current plans. For many, it ends up costing the same, and they don't actually use a lot of data. I can't even begin to tell you how many accounts I pull up with unlimited data and find out they only use about 1-2 GB. People just don't like having something taken away, even if they don't use it. I understand their reasoning.

Other people use a LOT of data because they can, thanks to unlimited. Not because they need to. But because they can. If they consciously used WiFi, instead, their actual data consumption wouldn't need unlimited data.

9/10 people that come to my store, they agreeably switch away from unlimited data on the ancient plans, and go to the new plans. Their bill is simpler, they get new phones for less money out of pocket ($0 down + tax), and don't have to combat the system constantly to get "upgrades" and keep unlimited data.

 

[Markeyse Jamar Mundy]

And JUST in time for the phone conversation.....

AT&T's WiFi calling feature is now available

 

[Schnuffi]

I Am not in the US don't know why Verizon has different frequencies then everyone else in the world. But I think every one that lives in the US should walk in to their local Verizon store and ask to see the Lumia 950 when they say they don't carry it should loudly say well I guess I have to go to AT&T store. and
storm out ;-)

 

[rollindice]

I Am not in the US don't know why Verizon has different frequencies then everyone else in the world. But I think every one that lives in the US should walk in to their local Verizon store and ask to see the Lumia 950 when they say they don't carry it should loudly say well I guess I have to go to AT&T store. and
storm out ;-)

Exactly if many persons do that ,you'll see how quick Verizon would bring it on stream

 

[dksf42]

Any chance that Microsoft disable the bands needed for Verizon as a concession to other phone manufactures so they would produce some higher end W10 phones? I think I've seen it mentioned a few times that Microsoft would prefer not to be the major hardware provider and wanted other manufactures to step up. I could see a few of the manufactures not wanting to make a phone that has a small market share and would have to compete directly with the new 950 and 950xl? Probably just wishful thinking I guess because I'm stuck on Verizon and would like to get a new phone. If not one from MS, it would be nice if I had some options.

OK ... HOT off the Press ... Microsoft "confirms exclusivity WAS THEIR IDEA"!

Microsoft confirms that Lumia 950/XL US carrier exclusivity was their idea - WMPoweruser

FIRST of all = FIRE or re-assign that person as, "in parallel" with the UNLOCKED directly form Microsoft throws a whole different spin on "why exclusivity" has FAILED yet Microsoft "still tries this game"!

NOW, the $64,000 question is "since the Qualcomm 810 contains ALL of the radios - several people posted, is that correct - then, IS IT POSSIBLE that an "unlocked 950XL "might work some day" on Verizon?

So, say I buy a 950XL form Microsoft "unlocked" - and temporarily switch to AT&T - to enjoy all of the power ... did I just buy a "boat anchor" or a bet that Microsoft's UNLOCKED strategy "is a Trojan horse"!

 

[MikeSo]

OK ... HOT off the Press ... Microsoft "confirms exclusivity WAS THEIR IDEA"!

Microsoft confirms that Lumia 950/XL US carrier exclusivity was their idea - WMPoweruser

FIRST of all = FIRE or re-assign that person as, "in parallel" with the UNLOCKED directly form Microsoft throws a whole different spin on "why exclusivity" has FAILED yet Microsoft "still tries this game"!

NOW, the $64,000 question is "since the Qualcomm 810 contains ALL of the radios - several people posted, is that correct - then, IS IT POSSIBLE that an "unlocked 950XL "might work some day" on Verizon?

So, say I buy a 950XL form Microsoft "unlocked" - and temporarily switch to AT&T - to enjoy all of the power ... did I just buy a "boat anchor" or a bet that Microsoft's UNLOCKED strategy "is a Trojan horse"!

I understand the reaction - I've had it myself. But think about it. Microsoft obviously wants to sell as many phones as possible. They might simply not have had the resources to go all out on all carriers. In mobile, they are small fry. We don't know what transpired behind the scenes, so the whole "FIRE the guy responsible" is beyond silly.

 

[David Fleetwood]

Verizon Wireless: 135.4 million (Q2 2015)
AT&T Mobility: 123.9 million (Q2 2015)
T-Mobile US: 58.9 million (Q2 2015)
Sprint Corporation: 57.2 million (Q2 2015)

While on the surface these numbers look impressive, in reality they are misleading. Verizon's wireless business is very focused on smartphone users, only about 20 million of the 135 million customers are non smartphone. They do not have a connected car business, they do not have a substantial data only device business and they have very few prepaid cell phone plans compared to other carriers. Most of their subscribers are locked into old style 2 year smartphone upgrade plans, and they only announced the end of that model in the last couple months.

By contrast, AT&T's business is highly diversified. Of the above subscribers, 4.8 million are connected car customers for instance. 23.4 million are connected devices (think iPads, SP3's, Android tablets, etc). 10.4 million are prepaid customers (Cricket, GoPhone, etc). 13.5 million are third party reseller customers. Of AT&T's postpaid business, 85% is using a smartphone. That amounts to 57.5 million smartphone users on the postpaid side of the business. About half of Verizon's postpaid smartphone user base, and only slightly ahead of TMo's market share.

In short, AT&T likes to tout its entire subscriber base, but when discussing smartphones only a portion of that subscriber base is actually relevant to the discussion. The 950 is not going to be made available to Cricket Wireless or AT&T GoPhone customers, and that is an enormous part of their overall business. Its going to be marketed to AT&T Next users and legacy smartphone plan users on their main postpaid business. And that market share is very small compared to VZ.

AT&T numbers can be found here taken from their investor portal: https://forums.windowscentral.com/e...ngs%2F2q15%2Fib_final_2q15.pdf&token=_IFzQlWT

So yes, if Microsoft, or anyone really, wishes to have a substantial portion of the smartphone market in the United States, they need to have Verizon on board. They single-handedly account for nearly 40% of the market for smartphones. Given that Sprint is at this point a lost cause, simply combining AT&T + T-Mobile leaves too much on the table to build a viable business or to build market share that is enticing to developers.

 

[dksf42]

Wow, BIG night ... now factor I this little gem ...

It sure looks Europe will be seeing some serious 950XL and 950 goodness!

Kantar: Microsoft the 3rd largest smartphone OEM by sales in Europe - WMPoweruser

 

[dksf42]

While on the surface these numbers look impressive, in reality they are misleading. Verizon's wireless business is very focused on smartphone users, only about 20 million of the 135 million customers are non smartphone. They do not have a connected car business, they do not have a substantial data only device business and they have very few prepaid cell phone plans compared to other carriers. Most of their subscribers are locked into old style 2 year smartphone upgrade plans, and they only announced the end of that model in the last couple months.

By contrast, AT&T's business is highly diversified. Of the above subscribers, 4.8 million are connected car customers for instance. 23.4 million are connected devices (think iPads, SP3's, Android tablets, etc). 10.4 million are prepaid customers (Cricket, GoPhone, etc). 13.5 million are third party reseller customers. Of AT&T's postpaid business, 85% is using a smartphone. That amounts to 57.5 million smartphone users on the postpaid side of the business. About half of Verizon's postpaid smartphone user base, and only slightly ahead of TMo's market share.

In short, AT&T likes to tout its entire subscriber base, but when discussing smartphones only a portion of that subscriber base is actually relevant to the discussion. The 950 is not going to be made available to Cricket Wireless or AT&T GoPhone customers, and that is an enormous part of their overall business. Its going to be marketed to AT&T Next users and legacy smartphone plan users on their main postpaid business. And that market share is very small compared to VZ.

AT&T numbers can be found here taken from their investor portal: https://forums.windowscentral.com/e...ngs%2F2q15%2Fib_final_2q15.pdf&token=grvt_jTD

So yes, if Microsoft, or anyone really, wishes to have a substantial portion of the smartphone market in the United States, they need to have Verizon on board. They single-handedly account for nearly 40% of the market for smartphones. Given that Sprint is at this point a lost cause, simply combining AT&T + T-Mobile leaves too much on the table to build a viable business or to build market share that is enticing to developers.

Awesome analysis!!! So, why an exclusive with AT&T?

 

[David Fleetwood]

Good question. I feel like there is something behind the scenes going on here that we aren't aware of.

 

[editguy]

I'm hoping with whatever the exclusive is with ATT that they will be training their sales kids (I say kids, because so many of them basically are, and that's part of the problem for MS) to properly present the phone to customers. Carriers have done real damage to Windows Phones because they actively discourage people from buying one. When I got my 9235 at T-mobile I had to threaten to leave to get them to quit trying to persuade me to get a Galaxy or an iPhone (I came into the store telling them that I wanted to purchase a L925 and that was all I was interested in). I know far too many people that have had a similar experience at other carriers. That's very difficult for a company to overcome. It's also why I normally buy phones unlocked so that I don't have to go through that nonsense.