10-12-2015 09:25 PM
72 123
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  1. d3ac0n's Avatar
    Insider preview works fine. Not sure what firmware upgrade you are referencing. The OS will be upgradeable from Microsoft though. Even running it on my old 928.
    Would I be able to use Windows Device Recovery Tool to flash to Windows 10 Mobile RTM?
    10-10-2015 10:30 AM
  2. Williaml99's Avatar
    "Actually, on the business side, i find their support the most helpful, available, and friendly of any vendor I work with..."

    Agreed, when I call in they always try to help. A few bumps in 15 years all in all good.
    10-10-2015 10:38 AM
  3. dkediger's Avatar
    Would I be able to use Windows Device Recovery Tool to flash to Windows 10 Mobile RTM?
    Short answer, nobody can really know for sure until that time. Microsoft has even been unclear and contradictory on which devices will be included.
    I would guess if there is a firmware update, then Verizon would need to approve it, if there isn't, then it is probably fair game. All the Insider builds have included the basic Verizon apps, so far, even when doing a hard reset.
    10-10-2015 10:38 AM
  4. d3ac0n's Avatar
    Short answer, nobody can really know for sure until that time. Microsoft has even been unclear and contradictory on which devices will be included.
    I would guess if there is a firmware update, then Verizon would need to approve it, if there isn't, then it is probably fair game. All the Insider builds have included the basic Verizon apps, so far, even when doing a hard reset.


    See that. 930 on the list. Icon not on the list. Exact same hardware. Differentiator is Verizon logo and BS.
    10-10-2015 11:25 AM
  5. Doug Swallow's Avatar
    I'm not sure we'll ever know exactly what is or has gone on behind the scenes between Microsoft/Nokia and Verizon. Everything is speculation.

    Certainly one aspect worldwide is the differences in how cellular standards have come about and how at times, being among the earliest to implement such networks isn't necessarily a good thing. That Verizon (and Sprint) in the US still use CDMA instead of transition to GSM is a case in point; it's always been difficult to bring your own devices to networks that simply aren't open. AT&T used TDMA prior to acquiring Cingular, and then beginning a changeover entirely to GSM. It was painful for subscribers at times. But now those subscribers have the benefit of the much more open GSM-based cell phone devices being usable, simply by inserting the SIM card you already have in your current device.

    Now today, we certainly have chipsets used in mobile devices that can support all current cellular standards and frequencies. Of course, it seems those same chipsets still have ways of being configured/combined to support subsets, but the option exists to use combinations that truly support everything in use today. At what cost? Certainly at a slightly higher cost, but really, $1, $5? Who really knows, but [probably not a lot of price difference. Of course, 5,000,000+ devices x $1 is still a chunk of change worth saving.

    But in the case of Verizon and Sprint, they still have to allow those devices on the network. Unlike GSM where the real identifier is the SIM card, CDMA networks require use of information on the physical device, and that means the networks have much more control over the devices they allow to connect.

    Verizon is a hybrid. There's simply no way most could live with the LTE-only side of Verizon. It's the CDMA side that gives them the complete coverage they have. The LTE deployment is comparatively very spotty. Verizon compatible devices simply must support CDMA, and must be allowed onto the network by Verizon.

    Would Microsoft create CDMA-compliant devices that can physically connect to the network?

    Would Verizon authorize those devices to be usable on the network?

    Now until we really see inside the 950 and 950 XL devices, we can't know for sure that support isn't physically there for CDMA. The SoC supports it, but there's other components that must be used on the radio front end, and they could have chosen, for whatever reason, to use one that cannot support CDMA. Or it's there and simply disabled for now.

    But of course, to figure this out we need everyone to be more forthcoming in what's going on behind the scenes, and I doubt we're going to ever truly get that.

    But keep in mind that it's more likely Verizon wants control over things on their network, and has a stronger reason to put up roadblocks to Microsoft, or anyone else, without some sort of deal. It's much the same in Cable company deployments; it's required government controls to get to a point where third party devices can be used on their networks for cable channel access, but the video-on-demand segment is still a mess, and only TiVo has managed to get a foothold in supporting that on just two of the major cable companies so far.

    For the most part, at least, there's more competition in the cellular industry, though of course coverage differences are a practical concern, especially in less populous areas. But it's far better than the state of cable competition. So aside from expressing the desire to Verizon for devices like the 950 and 950 XL, where possible, you may need to give Verizon more incentive: actually switch to using other providers to express that displeasure. But most importantly, whether you stay or switch, you need to let them know you're unhappy with the current state of things, and in this electronic age where sending emails is far too easy to automate, nothing is going to carry more weight than a real, written letter sent via US Mail with a concise explanation of your desire and your unhappiness over the current state of things.

    And maybe behind the scenes, there actually is work going on to create CDMA-supporting versions of these devices, but perhaps it involves some amount of give and take on both sides and that's preventing it from being even talked about yet in public. And certainly some external pressure from their customers would be a good thing, too.
    ashram, libra89, 920Walker and 1 others like this.
    10-10-2015 11:49 AM
  6. xrs22's Avatar
    While the Icon never "got" Cyan, it was the first US phone on any carrier to get Denim I believe....

    And ATT 830 users might have something to add also...
    Yes it was and when I had my 928 before the Icon came out, we got our updates first on Verizon. Could've been luck on getting them at the right time I suppose.
    10-10-2015 12:22 PM
  7. TexasLabRat's Avatar
    Why can't you just buy an unlocked phone and put your sim card into it?
    Verizon is not a GSM-based carrier so it's not that simple. A SIM is used for the LTE bands, but the CDMA "stuff" is required for activation/authentication. There are "sneaky" ways around this to some degree that others have done with different phones but it's unclear if that would be successful in this case since the CDMA radios are actually locked out in firmware plus Verizon's LTE band 13 is not one that is active, either.
    Senordingdong2K likes this.
    10-10-2015 12:29 PM
  8. TexasLabRat's Avatar
    Yes it was and when I had my 928 before the Icon came out, we got our updates first on Verizon. Could've been luck on getting them at the right time I suppose.
    I've got a t-mobile 810 that's still on Amber so...yeah.
    10-10-2015 12:30 PM
  9. xrs22's Avatar
    My family was on with att for about 11 years and my 1st smartphone was the Samsung focus. Ever since then I was always with windows OS, why? It was different and liked what it offered. But we ended up moving to the Cali mountains from Texas, long story, and had NO! reception at all. No calls and we could only receive texts and not respond to them. Prior to switching we had talked about going in Verizon but they carried no window phones, only the dated HTC trophy, which by that time was too old to be in the store. So in between the trophy and the Lumia 900 timelines. Now having switched found the newly released 928 which i found in Newegg.com for $45.99 I believe coming right outta the gate. Now I could make calls and send texts back up in them thar hills, granted to you hit low spot that's under the range and a dropped call but I understand that as far back as we were. So 928 and edged up to the Icon after being informed the 930 was international only but being the same spec'd and design phone just more color options. Now after this and reading that the 950 and xl was the last of the Lumia lines and not fully Microsoft products. So hopefully in believing that, in 6 mos. will be a developed ms phone that would cone to us. Isn't att only getting the 950 after all? I mean if that's it, I don't wanna switch carriers for the lower of the 2 newest phones. I'd wait the 6 mos. for what's coming up, cause we still got the released 10 to wait for and it's "like having a new phone". That's just me though and although the customer service was pretty good there was some hang up's on a returned 928 that I sent but eventually got cleared up.
    10-10-2015 12:38 PM
  10. oldpueblo's Avatar
    Since it embeds the video it ruins the time link, jump to 45:00 to hear what's up with Verizon.



    Honestly guys, your best bet is to just let Verizon know how unhappy you are with their lack of Windows Phone support. I feel for you guys with no other carrier option. :( What annoys me the most about Verizon is nothing stops them from having one really good Windows Phone and one budget one, like they did with the 822/928. Sure they have the HTC One M8 and two new budget phones, but why not go the safe route and focus on the Icon a phone that they know we'd prefer? The whole "it doesn't sell" bull**** doesn't fly with me because they have literally 23 Android phones available right now, many of which you know are total ****. Do they seriously need TWENTY-THREE different Android phones? Talk about a support nightmare, Windows Phone wouldn't be close to causing support headaches like those would. This is a business decision they made, let your voices be heard on twitter/support calls. That's your only hope.

    zpgcfvu.png
    10-10-2015 01:31 PM
  11. Senordingdong2K's Avatar
    Verizon is not a GSM-based carrier so it's not that simple. A SIM is used for the LTE bands, but the CDMA "stuff" is required for activation/authentication. There are "sneaky" ways around this to some degree that others have done with different phones but it's unclear if that would be successful in this case since the CDMA radios are actually locked out in firmware plus Verizon's LTE band 13 is not one that is active, either.
    Ok, thanks for concise answer.

    I've never had problems with network exclusivities as I stick to sim only contracts and buy phone unlocked from third party. Often from a different country.
    10-10-2015 02:22 PM
  12. psiu_glen's Avatar
    Verizon is not a GSM-based carrier so it's not that simple. A SIM is used for the LTE bands, but the CDMA "stuff" is required for activation/authentication. There are "sneaky" ways around this to some degree that others have done with different phones but it's unclear if that would be successful in this case since the CDMA radios are actually locked out in firmware plus Verizon's LTE band 13 is not one that is active, either.
    No sneaking around it - MS is actively locking the CDMA and band 13 that Verizon uses out. Other recent phones using the truly universal SOC's that integrate all of this are then universal, the only catch generally being you need to be an existing customer. Take your previous SIM and throw it in your unlocked, retail price device, and boom, done.
    10-10-2015 02:34 PM
  13. Clint Curry's Avatar
    I feel your pain, I live in Lincoln Nebraska (city of 250k approx.) there is signal here and Omaha, the whole rest of the state all runs off of Viaero (I wish AT&T would just buy them already...)
    10-10-2015 07:00 PM
  14. drtek's Avatar
    Sorry Charlie. Verizon is responsible for this while news. NOT MS. There is a saying. " You real what you sow." VZ brought this in by themselves. By delaying updates and refusing to update phones, who do you think bears the brunt of the complaints? I will give you a clue, and it isn't VZ. So, stop blaming MS, and man up. Enough of this whining. It may be interesting to read, but it is sad.
    10-11-2015 08:38 AM
  15. Krystianpants's Avatar
    MS should have their own testers that test each providers network. Apparently that's how apple does it and it allows them to release the software updates knowing it won't cause any big problems. From what I understand Verizon doesn't want to update any existing windows devices as it will give updates to MS after instead of going through verizon channels. And so that may be what they are fighting about.
    10-11-2015 09:07 AM
  16. Adam Frix's Avatar
    Shouldn't you be mad at Verizon, since they were actively complicit in this decision? Unlike T-Mobile, for example, VZW decided they wanted to control updates. When MS said no, what did VZW do?

    That's right--they screwed YOU.

    How's this for a course of action: tell VZW to pound sand and change providers to someone who doesn't make such anti-consumer choices, choices against YOUR will?
    920Walker likes this.
    10-11-2015 09:09 AM
  17. Adam Frix's Avatar
    Thanks for the feedback. All very fair remarks. I realize I take it all a little personal but that's just the way I am.
    Are you posting similar "take it personal" opinions over on various Verizon Wireless web boards as well?

    'Cuz they're not without fault here, not at all.

    They will continue to make choices FOR you that are in THEIR best interests, regardless of what you want. If you stay with VZW, you are in for more of the same.

    On the other hand, if you move carriers then you are free from that baloney.

    It looks like you have some choices available to you:

    1) stay with VZW, take their crap now and forever, and move to Android or iPhone--and keep looking over your shoulder for the next VZW decision that doesn't suit your needs

    2) don't take VZW's crap and leave them--set yourself up for longer term control of your own destiny and stay with Windows Mobile

    3) don't do anything, and stay where you are today
    10-11-2015 09:12 AM
  18. vovakyan's Avatar
    The way I see it it's more Verizon fault. Verizon never really carried to support windows. Delayed launches and updates, putting window phones and tablets in the back corner, stop selling them few months after release, just to put another android in its spot that's basically the same as the rest of there phones, trying there hardest to get people to not buy a windows phone. So I can understand why MS didn't put versions networking band in the phones, but I also think Microsoft should of did it anyway and told Verizon off. If they had CDMA networking in them, we would most likely have a whole other problem getting them activated.
    This is not true, as we saw with the Google Nexus 6. It was not approved by Verizon, but it worked on the network. People would just take their SIMs and put it in the new phone. This is also the case with the 5X/6P. Not Verizon approved, not Verizon sold but will work.
    Tjarren likes this.
    10-11-2015 10:59 AM
  19. psiu_glen's Avatar
    Mmmm

    Verizon pushing Denim out first in the US.

    How is the AT&T 830 doing?
    How about the AT&T 1520 with Qi pulled and storage halved?
    How about AT&T going after legacy unlimited data customers making the sin of using an non-approved OS on their network...W10M preview.

    T-Mo 810 owners, feel free to chime in about the loooove.

    From MS own words in this case, all the carriers expressed interest. MS went with AT&T only.

    They have a niche product that barely anyone knows about, cares about, or wants. Best way to get it out there is definitely limiting it's availability.

    As for "Verizon testing" - take the universal radios built into the SOC's, don't gimp them, and sell truly unlocked. If current Verizon customers want them then, they can have them. No Verizon approval needed. Could even help when VZW sees more of them showing on the network purely through interested users/corps.
    10-11-2015 11:00 AM
  20. willied's Avatar
    What I don't get is why they couldn't have included the bands to make it work with Verizon. I mean, they don't need permission from Verizon to include those bands, do they?
    10-11-2015 11:02 AM
  21. gordonfink's Avatar
    How do iPhone and Galaxy users on Verizon get their OS updates? Do they come from manufacturer, or Verizon?
    10-11-2015 11:06 AM
  22. vovakyan's Avatar
    Technically, there is no reason these devices can't work on Verizon. Other devices with the same internals do. These have just been prevented from doing so.

    That being said, I doubt we'll ever get an honest explanation as to why. Maybe ATT wanted the devices for themselves in return for other favors (advertising, agreeing to special displays in stores, higher subsidies, etc). Maybe MS demanded the ability to update their devices directly which Verizon just refused (while also clarifying that MS updatable devices would not be activated on Verizon's network, even if they are compatible). We'll probably never know.

    What we can be 100% sure of is that this has nothing to do with MS wanting to "teach Verizon a lesson". MS will not willingly limit the channels through which they can sell their devices without reason. No company is that stupid, not to mention that such a move would hurt MS more than Verizon.
    We need to get everyone to understand the facts you stated. One thing I was under the impression was if you buy Unlocked from Manufacturer, then they were responsible for support. They could push updates as they wanted. Consumers would have to understand that if they had an issue they would have to go to MSFT and not Verizon. Again in this case it seems that somehow MSFT screwed the pooch.
    This is what Google did with the Nexus. the best example is the Nexus 6. Verizon said it was not supported, but it worked on the network with the SIM. Also, Google pushed the updates they wanted directly to the phone.
    MSFT has been bypassing carriers in terms of updates with Preview for Developers, and now Windows Insider. Something doesn't add up, it seems that MSFT could have made this work, but chose not to.
    10-11-2015 11:09 AM
  23. vovakyan's Avatar
    Mmmm

    Verizon pushing Denim out first in the US.
    Why do people forget this fact?
    psiu_glen likes this.
    10-11-2015 11:11 AM
  24. Krystianpants's Avatar
    http://i.imgur.com/slKZfUr.png

    See that. 930 on the list. Icon not on the list. Exact same hardware. Differentiator is Verizon logo and BS.
    MS should offer the option for icon users to get an app for the update. It will then flash the unit to no longer rely on Verizon servers and a factory reset would simply put it back to windows 10 clean version that they flash. But Verizon could fire back and disable these phones. Either way, Ms should take Verizon to court for anti-trust practices. All Carriers should be brought to court for allowing android units in the field to stay on older versions that are obviously a security risk. Carriers have to stop this nonsense with controlling updates. That is not their job. Their job is to provide a service that any phone can use.
    d3ac0n and JediTWang like this.
    10-11-2015 11:11 AM
  25. Krystianpants's Avatar
    We need to get everyone to understand the facts you stated. One thing I was under the impression was if you buy Unlocked from Manufacturer, then they were responsible for support. They could push updates as they wanted. Consumers would have to understand that if they had an issue they would have to go to MSFT and not Verizon. Again in this case it seems that somehow MSFT screwed the pooch.
    This is what Google did with the Nexus. the best example is the Nexus 6. Verizon said it was not supported, but it worked on the network with the SIM. Also, Google pushed the updates they wanted directly to the phone.
    MSFT has been bypassing carriers in terms of updates with Preview for Developers, and now Windows Insider. Something doesn't add up, it seems that MSFT could have made this work, but chose not to.
    It's definitely supported by the antennas. The only thing keeping them from using the CDMA2000 bands is firmware/software. My guess is that MS could do it but verizon could fire back in some way. AT&T is already attacking windows 10 insider customers on older unlimited plans and claiming that they are using tethering even though they are not. They say they are running "unsupported software which could be buggy and doing it even if they aren't aware". This is just a scheme targeting only the unlimited customers who they want to switch to newer plans. They want to get rid of these plans and are using this as leverage. They haven't even been able to provide proof, but they don't care. This is how these carriers work. It's disgusting.
    10-11-2015 11:16 AM
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