02-16-2016 01:54 PM
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  1. telomoyo's Avatar
    I was watching this video and the question of whether the 950XL has or doesn't have liquid cooling arises. Does anyone know why Msft claims that this phone has liquid cooling?
    Lumia 950 XL Bend test - Liquidless Cooling - Scratch Test #myTube
    Mesbah likes this.
    02-09-2016 06:53 PM
  2. 920Walker's Avatar
    Maybe the liquid evaporated once no longer pressurized in the heat pipe. I don't know what liquid is claimed to be used.
    02-09-2016 07:04 PM
  3. KyleGM's Avatar
    I was watching this video and the question of whether the 950XL has or doesn't have liquid cooling arises. Does anyone know why Msft claims that this phone has liquid cooling?
    Lumia 950 XL Bend test - Liquidless Cooling - Scratch Test #myTube
    It does have liquid cooling, but people wrongly assume it's like what you find in computers (i.e a pipe filled with pure liquid). I'm no expert but this is a very specialized type of liquid that is in gas form most of the time, so when he opens the pipe it all escapes and that's why you can't see anything. He's just plain wrong that the phone isn't liquid cooled. Hopefully someone that knows exactly can explain it to you better.
    Mesbah likes this.
    02-09-2016 09:52 PM
  4. halflifecrysis's Avatar
    Article or link to article describing this process?

    Reminds me of the old story of the Emperor's new clothes.
    02-09-2016 10:22 PM
  5. jhoff80's Avatar
    It uses heat pipes, which are nothing new.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe

    They're not usually referred to as 'liquid cooling' but Microsoft (most likely) wanted to hype it up to make it sound like they solved the Snapdragon 810 heat problems.
    Last edited by jhoff80; 02-09-2016 at 10:45 PM.
    02-09-2016 10:25 PM
  6. anthonyng's Avatar
    It uses heat pipes, which are nothing new.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe

    They're not usually referred to as 'liquid cooling' but Microsoft (most likely) wanted to hype it up to make it sound like they solved the Snapdragon 810 heat problems.
    and in the end, it works fine... just not fine for android :)
    02-09-2016 11:02 PM
  7. goodbytes's Avatar
    The guy on the video was being an *****.
    The phone has a heat pipe, which is nothing new in the PC space. Laptops and most CPU desktop heatsink solutions.

    Heat pipes contains a gas in them which turns into liquid based on temperature to help conduct heat. Some manufactures of heatsinks like to calls this with a marketing name of sorts.

    What is new (and I guess ground breaking), is that you have a phone with a cooling solution for a hot processor. No other phones has this, and that solves the overheating issue under normal phone usage of the Snapdragon 810 chip, a bit problem with other phones with this chip, making your experience with the device fluctuate from smooth to choppy due that the chip overheats and throttles. This does not happen with the Lumia 950 XL, we all enjoy a consistent performance.
    02-09-2016 11:05 PM
  8. telomoyo's Avatar
    When this guy opens the pipe, some powder appears. Is it safe to assume that this "powder" changes from this powdery form, to liquid, to gas, and back to powder again depending on the temperature or pressure?
    02-09-2016 11:36 PM
  9. anthonyng's Avatar
    When this guy opens the pipe, some powder appears. Is it safe to assume that this "powder" changes from this powdery form, to liquid, to gas, and back to powder again depending on the temperature or pressure?
    no
    gpobernardo and rkrams like this.
    02-10-2016 07:31 AM
  10. telomoyo's Avatar
    no
    Elaborating on your answer would be greatly appreciated
    02-10-2016 10:31 AM
  11. gpobernardo's Avatar
    Elaborating on your answer would be greatly appreciated
    There is no known substance (on earth) that can change from solid (powder), to liquid and then to gas within a temperature range of just 60 degrees Celsius (or Kelvin) - that from normal room temperature (25C) to the normal maximum temperature of mobile processors (85C) at normal pressure values. Phase changes require higher temperature differences (at constant pressure) and higher pressure differences (at constant temperature).

    As for your original post, the statement really isn't right in referring to "Microsoft" as "claiming" that the L950XL has liquid cooling. They made it. They assembled it. They designed it (whether in whole or in part). They know what's in it. What's left is for them to "declare" (not "claim") what's in it or what's not.

    Liquid cooling works essentially the same way how radiators work in cars, or why we use water (not cooking oil) to cook boiled egg. The vaporization temperature of the liquid (at a given pressure) is fixed, i.e. for water it's 100C at 1atm, while for oil it's around 250C (depending on the oil) - it regulates the temperature such that it is at a maximum nowhere near the flame/engine temperature (or in the case of the phone/PC the processor temperature). Using water keeps the egg at 100C, or the car radiator at relatively near 100C (since the pressure in the radiator increases, so does the max temperature though only slightly but still far from the combustion temperature of the fuel). In effect, by using a (proprietary) liquid with relatively similar thermodynamic characteristics, this chamber of liquid limits the temperature of the CPU by providing a cold sink for the heat to escape to, using the heat as energy to vaporize the liquid in the chamber instead of simply heating the CPU up. I guess the hype here was in choosing to title the video that way ("liquidless") to gain more views, the same way this thread has made it to the trending list.
    Last edited by gpobernardo; 02-10-2016 at 11:45 AM. Reason: Added last paragraph.
    02-10-2016 11:30 AM
  12. erzhik's Avatar
    Liquid cooling was a marketing gimmick for 950XL.
    02-10-2016 11:37 AM
  13. v535's Avatar
    There is no known substance (on earth) that can change from solid (powder), to liquid and then to gas within a temperature range of just 60 degrees Celsius (or Kelvin) - that from normal room temperature (25C) to the normal maximum temperature of mobile processors (85C) at normal pressure values. Phase changes require higher temperature differences (at constant pressure) and higher pressure differences (at constant temperature).

    As for your original post, the statement really isn't right in referring to "Microsoft" as "claiming" that the L950XL has liquid cooling. They made it. They assembled it. They designed it (whether in whole or in part). They know what's in it. What's left is for them to "declare" (not "claim") what's in it or what's not.

    Liquid cooling works essentially the same way how radiators work in cars, or why we use water (not cooking oil) to cook boiled egg. The vaporization temperature of the liquid (at a given pressure) is fixed, i.e. for water it's 100C at 1atm, while for oil it's around 250C (depending on the oil) - it regulates the temperature such that it is at a maximum nowhere near the flame/engine temperature (or in the case of the phone/PC the processor temperature). Using water keeps the egg at 100C, or the car radiator at relatively near 100C (since the pressure in the radiator increases, so does the max temperature though only slightly but still far from the combustion temperature of the fuel). In effect, by using a (proprietary) liquid with relatively similar thermodynamic characteristics, this chamber of liquid limits the temperature of the CPU by providing a cold sink for the heat to escape to, using the heat as energy to vaporize the liquid in the chamber instead of simply heating the CPU up.
    Could it be something like this? Here goes: As CPU load increase, heat generated are vented out(depends on phone design, though), in the same state, cold air gets pulled/sucked in, due to a lower pressure and lesser surface area and device gets cooled down quickly. A process similar to how liquid coolers whether AIO or using custom distilled water for cooling the cpu.
    telomoyo likes this.
    02-10-2016 12:15 PM
  14. Allen Rhodes's Avatar
    And then suddenly...... Everyone is a scientist!
    02-10-2016 12:44 PM
  15. Cosmyc's Avatar
    What's certain it's that it works.
    02-10-2016 01:06 PM
  16. Krystianpants's Avatar
    it's not real liquid cooling. It's a real vapor chamber though. And there's this paste and locked in vapor in it that helps with the cooling.

    If you look at this review you will see that 810 does not have severe throttling issues on 950xl like with all the others.

    Microsoft Lumia 950 XL Smartphone Review - NotebookCheck.net Reviews

    Microsoft talked about a liquid cooling during the presentation. Several teardowns actually showed that the smartphone is equipped with a real heat pipe. We checked if there is a positive effect on the performance under sustained load with the GFXBench Battery test, which repeats the T-Rex test 30 times and logs the frame rate as well as the battery charge. It turns out that Microsoft is the only manufacturer that can handle the Snapdragon 810. The Lumia 950 XL also loses some performance, but the drop is comparatively small at 14.5%. Other smartphones with the same SoC suffer from bigger performance drops, it does not matter if you look at the LG Flex 2 (-16.2%), OnePlus 2 (-33%), Sony Xperia Z5 (-29%), Nexus 6P (-31%) or HTC One M9 (-38%).
    The "real" heat pipe essentially is a vapor chamber. No other phone has one.
    telomoyo and aXross like this.
    02-10-2016 02:33 PM
  17. ElronTheElder's Avatar
    Think the way to dissipate heat from SD810 is:
    -Have an increased surface area
    -under-clock it.
    Think MS did the later.
    02-10-2016 02:35 PM
  18. Cosmyc's Avatar
    Think the way to dissipate heat from SD810 is:
    -Have an increased surface area
    -under-clock it.
    Think MS did the later.
    No need for underclocking when there's throttling.
    02-10-2016 03:18 PM
  19. anthonyng's Avatar
    Elaborating on your answer would be greatly appreciated
    Lol sorry, not scientist/engineering central here :D Just didn't want you to start thinking too hard ;) but thanks to @gpobernardo for his/her time :)
    gpobernardo likes this.
    02-10-2016 07:13 PM
  20. travis_valkyrie's Avatar
    A lot of people think it's 'liquidless' just because it doesn't have anything in it, when the fact is that the heat pipe has a wick structure which holds the liquid. This gives it the clay-like texture seen in the video.
    wick.jpg


    Now that you know there's a wick structure in the heat pipe, here's an overview.
    overview.jpg

    This is also why the phone chassis is not made of metal, otherwise it would hurt the user (HTC One M9 anyone?)
    02-10-2016 08:34 PM
  21. Jazmac's Avatar
    A lot of people think it's 'liquidless' just because it doesn't have anything in it, when the fact is that the heat pipe has a wick structure which holds the liquid. This gives it the clay-like texture seen in the video.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	wick.jpg 
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    Now that you know there's a wick structure in the heat pipe, here's an overview.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	overview.jpg 
Views:	134 
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ID:	122066

    This is also why the phone chassis is not made of metal, otherwise it would hurt the user (HTC One M9 anyone?)
    newmann.jpg

    Newman!!
    02-10-2016 10:43 PM
  22. Mesbah's Avatar
    Hey folks, thanks a lot for awesome surgical & autopsy information.
    02-10-2016 10:50 PM
  23. Visa Declined's Avatar
    The "real" heat pipe essentially is a vapor chamber. No other phone has one.
    Wrong. Sony was putting heat pipes in their phones before Microsoft even made the 950XL.

    Xperia Z5 using dual heat pipes to control thermal performance? [Update] | Xperia Blog
    02-11-2016 12:54 AM
  24. Giddora's Avatar
    Yes... They used regular heat pipes which didn't help the previous phones with their throttling problem... Microsoft uses a new form (for mobiles) to cool their phones which doesn't make them throttle since the temperature is kept cooler.
    telomoyo likes this.
    02-11-2016 03:03 AM
  25. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    I'd be more concerned that the 950XL bends like a stack of wet magazines. Try doing that with a 920 or 930.
    telomoyo, 920Walker and aXross like this.
    02-11-2016 03:46 AM
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