03-28-2016 02:32 PM
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  1. peashooter14's Avatar
    Sorry, just can't let it go when fanboys defend the MSFT insider program and blame the users for not knowing what is going on because it was "In a blog somewhere"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window...obile#Redstone

    On 2/10/16 the FAST Ring was Threshold 10.0.10586.107

    So I was on the fast ring trying to get fixes for my production version of the OS, and life was good.

    On 2/19/16 the FAST Ring jumps to Redstone which screws any previous fast ring people wanting stable software on the General Release code.

    So, how were we supposed to know to jump out of the Fast Ring between 2/10 and 2/19. Its horrible release management by MSFT plain and simple. They should have an Alpha Ring for Redstone or not mix the definition of the Rings.
    03-22-2016 01:34 PM
  2. anthonyng's Avatar
    I haven't followed any of the complaints but just saw this thread cause it was a catchy subject :)

    Um isn't the purpose of fast ring is for those that want the latest and greatest OS? Not to fix production problems.

    I kept my 950XL on production the whole time cause I wasn't willing to put up with insider builds as my daily driver.

    I put my old windows phones on insider cause it was for fun.

    I put my surface 3 on insider cause I only use it for tablet non critical activities.

    My surface pro 3 is still on 8.1 because I KNOW that works for what I need for my work and waiting to the last minute to upgrade to windows 10.

    The fact that you had 950XL problems is unfortunate but going insider isn't the "approved/official" solution. Also you could have gone to the build and then stopped insider if you wanted to make sure you personally vet each update. I did that to my mom's 640... put insider and then took her off the update ring cause I wanted to control when she would get the next builds.
    03-22-2016 02:15 PM
  3. Warren Leggatt's Avatar
    The whole insider thing has never been and will never be about stable software. If is where microsoft makes test builds available so people can see where things are going and report the bugs they find

    Fastring is most current and unstable. OP should have read what signed up for. Redstone in no secret
    03-22-2016 02:30 PM
  4. peashooter14's Avatar
    I haven't followed any of the complaints but just saw this thread cause it was a catchy subject :)

    Um isn't the purpose of fast ring is for those that want the latest and greatest OS? Not to fix production problems.

    I kept my 950XL on production the whole time cause I wasn't willing to put up with insider builds as my daily driver.

    I put my old windows phones on insider cause it was for fun.

    I put my surface 3 on insider cause I only use it for tablet non critical activities.

    My surface pro 3 is still on 8.1 because I KNOW that works for what I need for my work and waiting to the last minute to upgrade to windows 10.

    The fact that you had 950XL problems is unfortunate but going insider isn't the "approved/official" solution. Also you could have gone to the build and then stopped insider if you wanted to make sure you personally vet each update. I did that to my mom's 640... put insider and then took her off the update ring cause I wanted to control when she would get the next builds.
    Sure the fast ring is for that, but when the phone ships with so many issues, many users were just trying to get the stupid things to be reliable phones. Many people use a cell phone as their only phone, so jumping on the fast ring to try and get more than 4 hours of use out of the phone seems reasonable, since the GR code was so bad.

    In a normal world I agree about the fast ring, my issue is they knew they had production problems with the OS and mis managed the insider program. For Windows phone the insider program was more of a "lets try and get this thing working properly" versus, lets share cool features of what is coming down the road. Also, don't forget this is the first time that carriers are not supplying the update for the phone, so many jumped on insider to get the releases, and there were many issues with even the insider application even getting the downloads of new versions to work as well. Remember the waiting to download and the progress bar stuck at 2% all day?
    03-22-2016 02:36 PM
  5. halflifecrysis's Avatar
    Sorry, just can't let it go when fanboys defend the MSFT insider program and blame the users for not knowing what is going on because it was "In a blog somewhere"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window...obile#Redstone

    On 2/10/16 the FAST Ring was Threshold 10.0.10586.107

    So I was on the fast ring trying to get fixes for my production version of the OS, and life was good.

    On 2/19/16 the FAST Ring jumps to Redstone which screws any previous fast ring people wanting stable software on the General Release code.

    So, how were we supposed to know to jump out of the Fast Ring between 2/10 and 2/19. Its horrible release management by MSFT plain and simple. They should have an Alpha Ring for Redstone or not mix the definition of the Rings.

    Finally someone else who noticed. I had to switch to slow ring from fast ring to get .107 to .164.

    When everything I had been told before was slow was for Redstone. They switched it up alright.
    03-22-2016 02:40 PM
  6. signal-2-noise's Avatar
    "Proof"? I don't see any proof.

    Pro-tip: Wikipedia isn't exactly the be-all-and-end-all to accurate information.

    What a disappointing thread this turned out to be.
    03-22-2016 02:44 PM
  7. Rezelius's Avatar
    I don't think a Wikipedia page can be classified as "proof" of anything. If you joined the insider program you accepted all of the risks that were included with the pre-release software Microsoft releases to each ring. Even being in the Insider program, one would typically READ what the update involves to know what issues could arise from the new software. Sorry but that is on the user, not Microsoft.
    03-22-2016 02:56 PM
  8. anthonyng's Avatar
    Sure the fast ring is for that, but when the phone ships with so many issues, many users were just trying to get the stupid things to be reliable phones. Many people use a cell phone as their only phone, so jumping on the fast ring to try and get more than 4 hours of use out of the phone seems reasonable, since the GR code was so bad.

    In a normal world I agree about the fast ring, my issue is they knew they had production problems with the OS and mis managed the insider program. For Windows phone the insider program was more of a "lets try and get this thing working properly" versus, lets share cool features of what is coming down the road. Also, don't forget this is the first time that carriers are not supplying the update for the phone, so many jumped on insider to get the releases, and there were many issues with even the insider application even getting the downloads of new versions to work as well. Remember the waiting to download and the progress bar stuck at 2% all day?
    I was daily driver with my 950XL from day 1 in Canada. Near end of November. The next week, I had to travel for work and took it as my phone and I was able to rely on it. Email, phone calls, calendar.... it's all I really needed it to rely on... Wanted continuum dearly with remote desktop but they weren't ready in time for me. Work people asked about it and I told them I wouldn't recommend new windows users to that specific phone and that windows10 was a work in progress from what I could tell at the time.

    I'm glad it's gotten a lot better since day 1 and definitely feel better about the phone overall now.

    Insider, ok it's not perfect or smooth process but again, if it works, cool if not it is what it is. I don't mean to say too bad for you as problems really shouldn't happen but it's almost like you were misguided into getting this phone in the first place and you're mad at that. If I remember well, nobody was really raving much about the phone though...
    signal-2-noise likes this.
    03-22-2016 03:02 PM
  9. oufc_gav's Avatar
    So you are quoting an old edit of a Wikipedia page that has now been locked by admins because of persistent disruptive editing by two people - maybe one of them was even you, who knows.
    03-22-2016 03:23 PM
  10. TheBadGuy_88's Avatar
    I agree with the O.P. with this one but for different reasons.

    Insider preview fast ring is definitely to test the most current, least stable ring. And Microsoft knowing that it was getting to become viewed as the way to get the update when Microsoft released them added new tiers to insider preview to accommodate. Maybe little convoluted but overall straight forward.

    This current red stone work though is infuriating though.It's like Microsoft can't just add to the builds, They always have to destroy and rebuild. They were finally getting things pretty stable and they just went and broke the O.S. all over again. And truth be told this build shouldn't have lasted 1 day even on their campus let alone LEAVE the building. I know we are the new Quality Control but there has to be some standard. These red stone builds have broken my iris scanner, crippled the pin pad, broken emails, people hub, quick charge, terrorized the battery, and screwed with maps and locations. my phone literally doesn't charge fast enough to keep the phone on, my band 2 stays off Bluetooth because it won't sync, I can't save a backup because it will cause the phone to currupt. I'm All for testing new features and finding bugs but it's as if they're rebuilding everything AGAIN after they just rebuilt Windows 10 in the first place. It's the development techniques that **** me off. It's like they can't build anything that works but also allows for additions in the future, every time they want to add a feature it breaks everything so they have to re-code all over again. At this rate they'll never catch up to iOS. It's such a fragile core of code it's really tiring to keep seeing them go theough the cycle. At the moment I don't want to leave insider fast because I had to turn off backups because it would have been currupted so i have to wait until the next time it's stable to get out of it...

    Truth be told 8.1 just need a couple more features to be actually as good if not better than iOS. And a few more api's for developers to have acces too. But you know Microsoft "destroy and rebuild." But when it's close to being done let's destroy and rebuild it again"
    03-22-2016 03:45 PM
  11. ajj3085's Avatar
    This current red stone work though is infuriating though.It's like Microsoft can't just add to the builds, They always have to destroy and rebuild. They were finally getting things pretty stable and they just went and broke the O.S. all over again.
    Ya that how software works. You can't just add without touching what is already there. Sometimes you need to completely rewrite and existing component because there's mo other way to add the new feature to it.

    If you want stable stay out of insiders. And they went about the insiders changes just fine. They added an even slower ring just for bug fixes. Using fast ring for that is just silly, and has been from day one. Impatience of some customers doesn't mean MS did something wrong, it means those using fast ring for bug fixes did
    anthonyng likes this.
    03-22-2016 07:19 PM
  12. beman39's Avatar
    I agree with the O.P. with this one but for different reasons.

    Insider preview fast ring is definitely to test the most current, least stable ring. And Microsoft knowing that it was getting to become viewed as the way to get the update when Microsoft released them added new tiers to insider preview to accommodate. Maybe little convoluted but overall straight forward.

    This current red stone work though is infuriating though.It's like Microsoft can't just add to the builds, They always have to destroy and rebuild. They were finally getting things pretty stable and they just went and broke the O.S. all over again. And truth be told this build shouldn't have lasted 1 day even on their campus let alone LEAVE the building. I know we are the new Quality Control but there has to be some standard. These red stone builds have broken my iris scanner, crippled the pin pad, broken emails, people hub, quick charge, terrorized the battery, and screwed with maps and locations. my phone literally doesn't charge fast enough to keep the phone on, my band 2 stays off Bluetooth because it won't sync, I can't save a backup because it will cause the phone to currupt. I'm All for testing new features and finding bugs but it's as if they're rebuilding everything AGAIN after they just rebuilt Windows 10 in the first place. It's the development techniques that **** me off. It's like they can't build anything that works but also allows for additions in the future, every time they want to add a feature it breaks everything so they have to re-code all over again. At this rate they'll never catch up to iOS. It's such a fragile core of code it's really tiring to keep seeing them go theough the cycle. At the moment I don't want to leave insider fast because I had to turn off backups because it would have been currupted so i have to wait until the next time it's stable to get out of it...

    Truth be told 8.1 just need a couple more features to be actually as good if not better than iOS. And a few more api's for developers to have acces too. But you know Microsoft "destroy and rebuild." But when it's close to being done let's destroy and rebuild it again"
    hahaha I couldn't have said it better myself! I was just to lazy to type all this.... this is what I was trying to say in another post (band 2 not working) and all the fanboys (fanboy like myself BTW) were just parroting the same old 2 sentences which were "it was in the description" and "but its a beta release fast ring" blah blah blah, but what it comes down too is that everyone wasn't comprehending is that this build shouldn't have been released AT ALL! you don't release stuff and take everyone back 10 steps! wait till the fast ring beta is more "STABLE" to allow us to have "improvements" to win10 mobile... and if MFST keeps on breaking releases and releasing sh!tty beta stuff and everyone will run for the hills (or to android/ios) of course accept for the die hard fans and win10 mobile will fail a miserable death which isn't what I want to see! and you know what? I agree with thebadguy that they should have just built on win8 mobile and kept working with a great and STABLE OS release!... but of course the die hard fans here will make more excuses and chastise the rest of us who see what is really wrong here and is REALLY HONEST about win10 mobile! and the truth is windows 10 mobile is really really shoddy and too unstable! sorry of this upsets some of you but that's the reality of it... accept it and maybe push MFST to get off its a$$ and start to release properly working stuff!!
    03-22-2016 10:57 PM
  13. Mr Hyde's Avatar
    Seems to me that the people in this thread complaining about the insider fast ring were thinking they were part of some cool exclusive club who could then brag about getting new features before anyone else, and expected every build to be more stable than the last. When I signed up for the insider program I waited to enter any ring until I had read that a build was stable and worth installing. I never entered the fast ring. Why? Because I read what was on the insider web page and what is in the insider app. I read that stuff and believed it when MS said the builds could cause problems with the phone. I need my phone to work.. I have a 950XL and it has worked as a phone without any trouble since the day I got it. The only trouble I have ever had was when I entered the insider program. I needed to use the WDRT so my phone would see the .164 update. Did I complain and blame MS? No, I knew full well that if I entered the insider program there was a risk that it would mess up my phone. I was responsible for my decision to enter the insider program, not MS. MS didn't trick me or force me, or coerce me in any way.

    If you're not willing to take the risks involved in being in the insider program then perhaps you should not be in the insider program.

    If you want to say MS hosed you because of issues in the release builds then that would be a valid criticism. But to blame MS for your experience in the insider program when they posted all sorts of warnings and made the program voluntary, well that's just people not wanting to take responsibility for their own choices.
    03-23-2016 01:30 AM
  14. anon(9809330)'s Avatar
    Finally someone else who noticed. I had to switch to slow ring from fast ring to get .107 to .164.

    When everything I had been told before was slow was for Redstone. They switched it up alright.
    Release Preview ring gave .164 also.
    For PC Release Preview is a joke (never got anything what so ever).
    03-23-2016 02:17 AM
  15. anthonyng's Avatar
    Ya that how software works. You can't just add without touching what is already there. Sometimes you need to completely rewrite and existing component because there's mo other way to add the new feature to it.
    Lol me just updating a drupal site is all trial and error... oops, fixed that, borked that
    03-23-2016 02:43 AM
  16. Corwin_Amber1's Avatar
    peashooter, I feel sorry, but really, the information was there. If you are in the fast ring, you should be aware of possible issues and stay on top. They pushed the newest TH releases to slow and even preproduction for some builds. There was sufficient time to get out of fast ring. I am having several 640s in the family with non tech savy members, which I put into slow for that reason. They update overnight, nobody even notices and are humming along just fine.

    It may not have been perfect for people not on top, but that is life in the fast ring. The problem is not the ring. And, there are many people, who are happy to have it and who think it is just fine. Also, we feel an urge to defend it, not because we are blind fanboys, but because we ARE on top and feel that it is good the way it is. also, we do not want to haveit taken away because of people (not you) behaving bad and making noise for being unwilling or unable to read and reflect.

    Seriously, I appreciate how you communicate it, unlike some trolls, looking just plain stupid ;) But maybe, only maybe the insider program, or at least the fast ring is not the right place to be, if you are not on top of the game. No offense meant.
    BonzeUK likes this.
    03-23-2016 05:39 AM
  17. peashooter14's Avatar
    peashooter, I feel sorry, but really, the information was there. If you are in the fast ring, you should be aware of possible issues and stay on top. They pushed the newest TH releases to slow and even preproduction for some builds. There was sufficient time to get out of fast ring. I am having several 640s in the family with non tech savy members, which I put into slow for that reason. They update overnight, nobody even notices and are humming along just fine.

    It may not have been perfect for people not on top, but that is life in the fast ring. The problem is not the ring. And, there are many people, who are happy to have it and who think it is just fine. Also, we feel an urge to defend it, not because we are blind fanboys, but because we ARE on top and feel that it is good the way it is. also, we do not want to haveit taken away because of people (not you) behaving bad and making noise for being unwilling or unable to read and reflect.

    Seriously, I appreciate how you communicate it, unlike some trolls, looking just plain stupid ;) But maybe, only maybe the insider program, or at least the fast ring is not the right place to be, if you are not on top of the game. No offense meant.
    You guys are still missing the point. I get what the fast ring is supposed to be. It comes down to commercial software development. I have been there and run teams of developers. The guys at MSFT have no clue.

    1. We would give a dog food bowl to any developer who broke something in a build that went out the door. Clearly MSFT needs 10-15 dogfood bowls to put in developers cubes
    2. They are not cherrypicking code from Threshold up to Redstone in a professional or timely manner. You don't fix something in Threshold and NOT immediately cherry pick it into Redstone. Software development 101 here folks
    3. They MSFT, should have the best automated testing tools in the world, and crappy builds like the current should have never passed, let alone if anyone with MSFT phones in the development team actually unit tested the builds, they would have not shipped.
    4. You NEVER fork the code and don't tell the user base, you would have thought they learned this lesson when the took the OFFICE platform and implemented the new ribbon, and killed the UI for everyone on older versions (you were probably too young for this event). Posting something in a blog is bogus. They have my email, send me an email about the pending FORK of the Fast Ring to Redstone, and give me a grace period to move down to the slow RING. You can not defend this action by MSFT so please stop. It would have literally taken them a 10 minute code fix and 5 minute mass email to the members.
    5. They still have not even cherry picked the windows 8.1 features up to WP10 which is the biggest joke so far. What do they have like 5 developers working on this operating system?
    beman39 and TheBadGuy_88 like this.
    03-23-2016 09:06 AM
  18. Mr Hyde's Avatar
    You guys are still missing the point. I get what the fast ring is supposed to be. It comes down to commercial software development. I have been there and run teams of developers. The guys at MSFT have no clue.

    1. We would give a dog food bowl to any developer who broke something in a build that went out the door. Clearly MSFT needs 10-15 dogfood bowls to put in developers cubes
    2. They are not cherrypicking code from Threshold up to Redstone in a professional or timely manner. You don't fix something in Threshold and NOT immediately cherry pick it into Redstone. Software development 101 here folks
    3. They MSFT, should have the best automated testing tools in the world, and crappy builds like the current should have never passed, let alone if anyone with MSFT phones in the development team actually unit tested the builds, they would have not shipped.
    4. You NEVER fork the code and don't tell the user base, you would have thought they learned this lesson when the took the OFFICE platform and implemented the new ribbon, and killed the UI for everyone on older versions (you were probably too young for this event). Posting something in a blog is bogus. They have my email, send me an email about the pending FORK of the Fast Ring to Redstone, and give me a grace period to move down to the slow RING. You can not defend this action by MSFT so please stop. It would have literally taken them a 10 minute code fix and 5 minute mass email to the members.
    5. They still have not even cherry picked the windows 8.1 features up to WP10 which is the biggest joke so far. What do they have like 5 developers working on this operating system?
    I read your post and understand your point of view. But, here Is what I don't understand. Why would you (or anyone else) blindly stay in the fast ring if you need a stable phone experience?Wouldn't it be more prudent to jump into the fast ring to pick up a build only after you have read the pros and cons of the build and have determined that the new build fixes whats important to you and desnt break anything critical? This info is posted on the insiders blog and is almost always reposted here on WC. Blindly installing beta software seems foolish to me especially with all the warnings given for the insider program. This forum is full of people discussing issues with fast ring builds, but issues are to be expected. That's what keeps me out of the fast ring, but I'm not a programmer. I'm just a regular guy who did a little reading, some research, and used just a little bit of common sense.
    03-23-2016 11:22 AM
  19. Krystianpants's Avatar
    My 2 cents:

    If you join a program that gives you bleeding edge software that could potentially cause you issues, you need to keep up with any changes that occur and stay informed. Don't just blindly join and forget about it.

    The changes were definitely weird but it was the only way they could maintain the difference builds. And yes there was feedback notifications to the post. It was all over windows blogs/sites. I don't know how you could blame MS because of your ignorance. Nothing to do with being a fan boy, it's more about being aware of what you are doing. Do you walk into traffic without looking for cars? I read change logs and see what will change before I you know, make the change. It sounds crazy right? Being aware of things? I dunno crazy world I tell you.
    03-23-2016 12:08 PM
  20. anthonyng's Avatar
    You guys are still missing the point. I get what the fast ring is supposed to be. It comes down to commercial software development. I have been there and run teams of developers. The guys at MSFT have no clue.
    Understood where you're coming from. How things could get worse optically looks really off...

    But now you're onto a different topic, development management and probably also the decision what to show insiders. You could start a topic about Microsoft having really bad development management but then you'd probably be talking to yourself and anyone else that agrees because who on the inside will talk to us about how and why Microsoft does what they do in their development process and debate the merits?
    03-23-2016 02:12 PM
  21. KimRM's Avatar
    You guys are still missing the point. I get what the fast ring is supposed to be. It comes down to commercial software development. I have been there and run teams of developers. The guys at MSFT have no clue.

    1. We would give a dog food bowl to any developer who broke something in a build that went out the door. Clearly MSFT needs 10-15 dogfood bowls to put in developers cubes
    2. They are not cherrypicking code from Threshold up to Redstone in a professional or timely manner. You don't fix something in Threshold and NOT immediately cherry pick it into Redstone. Software development 101 here folks
    3. They MSFT, should have the best automated testing tools in the world, and crappy builds like the current should have never passed, let alone if anyone with MSFT phones in the development team actually unit tested the builds, they would have not shipped.
    4. You NEVER fork the code and don't tell the user base, you would have thought they learned this lesson when the took the OFFICE platform and implemented the new ribbon, and killed the UI for everyone on older versions (you were probably too young for this event). Posting something in a blog is bogus. They have my email, send me an email about the pending FORK of the Fast Ring to Redstone, and give me a grace period to move down to the slow RING. You can not defend this action by MSFT so please stop. It would have literally taken them a 10 minute code fix and 5 minute mass email to the members.
    5. They still have not even cherry picked the windows 8.1 features up to WP10 which is the biggest joke so far. What do they have like 5 developers working on this operating system?
    The insider program is all about trying out code and collecting telemetry. The fast ring builds doesn't necessarily have the same features existing in threshold builds. It has the code MS decides just to actually test it. The insider program is not meant to be a progam were you get the fixes and features before the non-insiders. It's just a test-group for telemetry purposes.
    You wouldn't join the fast ring to get better battery life.
    Mr Hyde and ajj3085 like this.
    03-23-2016 02:27 PM
  22. colinkiama's Avatar
    If you stayed on the release ring or quit being an insider. You would have been fine. Over time the apps will update, firmware will update and it'll get better and more stable over time. For example contact history in the people hib was initially only for redstone then it trickled down to public release after a week or 2.
    03-23-2016 02:47 PM
  23. mmcpher's Avatar
    MSFT was on a decent run there for awhile, with new TP's bringing mostly refinements and less bugs than its predecessor versions. But like peashooter and others in this thread, the current Fast Ring release is a step back, presumably prefatory to two steps forward. I got lazy and just plowed ahead and updated without checking it out, and I likely would have taken the chance even knowing the level of new bugs, because I ALWAYS think I'm lucky and special and the bugs won't bite me.

    Blackberry allowed users, at their own risk, to load beta OS's for years and years. Crackberry was and is great for running articles and long, detailed threads for each new release, and it was fairly easy to quickly assess the stability of new build and make an educated decision whether to gamble or not. It was easy to find where to look on Crackberry, and the latest betas bubbled to the top of the forums. Same thing here for us, but you have to look a little harder. We have a "Windows 10 Mobile Insider Preview" forum. And there it is, a thread on .14291,

    This is just one of those builds that can't be supplanted to quickly.
    03-23-2016 03:22 PM
  24. groady-ho baluzy's Avatar
    Yes everything is MS fault. That's 1/2 the problem with the world today, no personal responsibility for our own actions, it's always somebody else fault.
    I'm sorta old and not very tech savvy, just built my first computer ever and tried Android for the first time recently. I read and understood all the risks involved before joining insiders. After that it's all on me.
    The complaining that goes on here @ WC is ridiculous, there's no reasoning or rational for 1/2 of it.
    Maybe more people need to go to IOS where they are protected from themselves. Probably why Apple has such a following, people love to be told what and how to do things.
    03-23-2016 03:24 PM
  25. beman39's Avatar
    no one is saying EVERYTHING IS MS'S fault and your remark is ridiculous to say the least, BUT they dropped the ball on this release... you and others can't see that, then you're ALL in denial... sad to see you guys parroting the same nonsense just goes to show you have your heads in the sand! there has been some excellent examples in this thread and others of why they dropped the ball and some of you still don't get it or WON'T get it because you believe MS can do no wrong...it's sad really. It's like a parent who can't accept their child is flawed and has behavior problems and making excuses why this or why that for their child, but meanwhile the child is a wild brat bullying all the other kids on the playground LOL MS is NOT perfect and releasing beta crap is still crap no matter what label you wanna call it, and the programmers are NOT doing a good job! small MINOR problems I can see happening and does indeed happen of course, but the problems with this release just blows my mind and makes MS look like amateurs! that's the truth and you'all just got to deal with it!
    03-23-2016 07:38 PM
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