10-12-2015 10:27 PM
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  1. RumoredNow's Avatar
    It's been a long time coming. Everyone wants to see the spec. Many 1020 fans want another outrageously high MP count. And a lot of users don't want a 5.7" screen so Talkman at 5.2" will be their go to.

    Microsoft's Cityman and Talkman flagship Lumia phones and what you need to know | Windows Central

    Here's what we suspect (pretty much confirmed) about the camera.
    20MP PureView rear camera
    Do we hope for another phone around the corner with a higher resolution shooter?

    Do we want the same 20 MP camera module that is in 1520 and 930/Icon?

    Do you want something different out of the 20 MP such as a larger aperture for better light gathering?

    For reference, here is the spec on the 1520 camera:
    • Main camera: 20.0 MP
    • Main camera focus type: Auto focus with two-stage capture key
    • Camera optics: 6-lens optics
    • Stabilization: Optical image stabilization
    • Oversampling: Yes
    • Sensor size: 1/2.5 inch
    • Main camera f-number/aperture: f/2.4
    • Camera focal length: 26 mm
    • Flash type: Dual LED flash
    • Camera features: Backside-illuminated image sensor, High resolution zoom 2x, PureView
    • Camera minimum focus range: 10 cm
    What say you? Is the same camera module from late 2013 still relevant? Do we still love it? Or do we demand more?
    pankaj981, Guytronic and rhapdog like this.
    07-23-2015 11:25 PM
  2. hopmedic's Avatar
    Being an Icon user, that 20MP camera is still excellent. I see no problem with recommending it to anyone.
    07-24-2015 12:04 AM
  3. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    The number of megapixels aren't important. Phones like the LG G3 and iPhone 6+ prove you can have good cameras without a ridiculous amount of megapixels. Phones like the HTC One M9 prove that more megapixels isn't always a good thing.
    It's how you use those megapixels.
    20MP is the perfect amount in my opinion. All I want from the 950/XL is a larger sensor. Also an aperture of at least f1.8, with a shorter minimum range and a more advanced optical image stabilization. Basically, don't add more megapixels but upgrade everything else. A laser autofocus would be fantastic as well, to go alongside that tri-flash we're all expecting. And of course, the camera software has to be flawless. Great HDR, manual controls, fast processing, lots of customization.
    07-24-2015 12:06 AM
  4. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    To put it shortly, a 20MP camera with the latest camera hardware available to smartphones. It has to be at least on par with the Galaxy S6 and G4 if not better and you can't do that with two year old hardware.
    maverick786us, rhapdog and CernT like this.
    07-24-2015 12:08 AM
  5. hopmedic's Avatar
    There is definitely more than just pixels involved in the determination. That OIS makes a big difference for people who can't hold still. I've shot with an SLR for more than 25 years, and I've found that I can get clearer shots with the Icon at times. The hands just aren't as steady as they used to be. The flash would be better if it were the xenon flash that the 928 has. The glass is good, but could be better. Like Zachary said, an f/1.8 aperture would be nice. A bigger sensor, with the same number of pixels, would be awesome. Of course that would mean a shorter effective lens length, unless they put a bulge on the back of the phone like the 1020 and others have. There is always room for improvement, but I do think that 20 MP is plenty for anything that I'd do with a phone.

    Another great thing about the Icon is the directional nature of the microphones. I record church services from upstairs in the sound booth, and it sure does a nice job with the audio for a phone that doesn't have audio inputs for recording. I've never heard myself typing on the keyboard (when I look up a verse or a song) in a recording. Not saying it isn't there, but if it is, I haven't noticed it. So it does a nice job of muting those little sounds that come from behind the camera.
    a5cent, RaRa85, Guytronic and 3 others like this.
    07-24-2015 01:18 AM
  6. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    There is definitely more than just pixels involved in the determination. That OIS makes a big difference for people who can't hold still. I've shot with an SLR for more than 25 years, and I've found that I can get clearer shots with the Icon at times. The hands just aren't as steady as they used to be. The flash would be better if it were the xenon flash that the 928 has. The glass is good, but could be better. Like Zachary said, an f/1.8 aperture would be nice. A bigger sensor, with the same number of pixels, would be awesome. Of course that would mean a shorter effective lens length, unless they put a bulge on the back of the phone like the 1020 and others have. There is always room for improvement, but I do think that 20 MP is plenty for anything that I'd do with a phone.

    Another great thing about the Icon is the directional nature of the microphones. I record church services from upstairs in the sound booth, and it sure does a nice job with the audio for a phone that doesn't have audio inputs for recording. I've never heard myself typing on the keyboard (when I look up a verse or a song) in a recording. Not saying it isn't there, but if it is, I haven't noticed it. So it does a nice job of muting those little sounds that come from behind the camera.
    You make some good points. Better quality lens are important, and I'm willing to add a little bit of bulk to the back of the phone to increase effective range. I'll give up a tiny amount of aesthetics for a better camera, as I think most people would.
    Those Omni-directional mics are essential! I completely forgot about the fantastic audio setup on the 1020, 1520 and 930. HAAC I think they're called.
    A xenon flash would be nice but I don't think it's feasible for a commercially available phone. It'd be perfect for a camera oriented 940/50 (a 1020 successor) but it doesn't look like that'll happen anymore. I'm good with a tri LED flash. If Microsoft controls the tone and strength right then it'll be better then any flash set up on any other commercial phone.
    rhapdog and RumoredNow like this.
    07-24-2015 12:16 PM
  7. RumoredNow's Avatar
    The number of megapixels aren't important. Phones like the LG G3 and iPhone 6+ prove you can have good cameras without a ridiculous amount of megapixels. Phones like the HTC One M9 prove that more megapixels isn't always a good thing.
    I agree. And many Lumias prove that point as well.

    However, like any spec there are those who chase it and revere it. And in the case of Lumia cameras, many rabid fans are clamoring for the next gen and asking that the envelope get pushed.


    Being an Icon user, that 20MP camera is still excellent. I see no problem with recommending it to anyone.
    Again I agree with a qualifier.

    I have and love a 1520. In large part that is due to the camera and photo capabilities. I also recommend the camera on my phone.

    Recently though, I was in the fortunate position to compare the cameras on 928, 1520 and 830. I was pleasantly surprised to see how well 830 shoots. In many ways it may be superior to 1520/930/Icon as an all around shooter.

    The camera on 1520 has phenomenal depth of field and I love that. It also falls short of others in terms of low light ability. I think 830 strikes a better balance. If 830 had better flash (say a xenon unit) it would be undeniably outstanding.

    There is good enough, there is resting on your laurels and on the other side there is leading the way.

    I'd like to see something new, something leading the way forward.
    raycpl, phirefly, pjm1891 and 2 others like this.
    07-24-2015 12:33 PM
  8. RumoredNow's Avatar
    In all fairness to my above contributors, I'm editing the title of this thread.

    Old: Is 20 MP Enough?

    New: Is the Same 20 MP Enough?

    Subtle, but maybe a needed distinction?
    EMitchell likes this.
    07-24-2015 12:35 PM
  9. theefman's Avatar
    If this review from AAWP is anything to go by, the same components will definitely not be enough to be anything more than on par with the competition and probably a few steps behind by the time they are actually released. Camera head to head: Lumia 930/1020 vs LG G4

    Whether that's good enough for the people buying them I guess is up to them.
    kiloeightone and rhapdog like this.
    07-24-2015 12:47 PM
  10. rhapdog's Avatar
    I think that with the exact same old hardware, while nice, is not enough. 20MP is fine, but update the tech on the sensors and give a larger sensor area.

    If someone needs more than 20MP on a regular basis, then they are probably a professional photographer in need of a real, high-end SLR camera.

    As far as the 41MP on the 1020, it was great, but if you were to put the same size sensor but with the advancements made since then, then I think it would shoot better quality photos. The only time you'll tell the difference at that stage between 20MP and 41MP is when you go to enlarge, but 20MP is big enough to enlarge for anything you'll be hanging in your home. 41MP is better for the side of a bus. ;)
    RumoredNow and GMC262 like this.
    07-24-2015 02:35 PM
  11. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    I own an 830 and let me tell you guys...10MP goes a stupidly long way. This is a fantastic camera. I've used the 1520 and I love the detail and bokeh effect but this is a fantastic all around camera for basically anyone. I wish it had a few more megapixels for better macro shots and a stronger flash but then again I hardly ever use the flash because I rarely need it.
    Here's what I'm hoping from the 940/50 /XL (Jesus):
    20 megapixel PureView
    f1.8 aperture
    A more advanced optical image stabilization (the 830 is great but could be better)
    Tri-LED flash
    Laser autofocus
    Larger sensor
    Better quality lens
    HAAC mic setup
    Improved effective range
    Decreased minimum range
    Increased lossless zoom

    The 41MP camera on the 1020 had lots of detail but there comes a point where you're just shoving too many megapixels into too small a sensor. That's the biggest mistake phone manufacturers make with their cameras is they try to appeal to the masses with a lot of megapixels and shove it into a tiny sensor which causes a lot of noise and not a whole lot of light. It goes both ways as well. HTC is the only phone manufacturer I can think of that's gone the other way. They had too few megapixels in too large a sensor, sacrificing detail for light.
    I don't like iPhones, but Apple has found a great combination for 8MP. Microsoft just has to find that mix for 20MP.
    RumoredNow and bsbharath1987 like this.
    07-24-2015 03:42 PM
  12. RumoredNow's Avatar
    I like the above, but I think f/1.9 might give up too much depth of field...
    07-24-2015 05:15 PM
  13. psiu_glen's Avatar
    To answer this, I will tell the tale of what digital cameras we have gone through.

    We started off with a Fuji Finepix A205 in the early 00's - still have it. Fat, slow, 2mp, but solid glass. Good quality pictures.

    Then we added the Canon S2 IS - one of the early p&s telezooms, added the barrel protector/filter adapter, used it for years.

    That held up well until baby #1 started to MOVE. :P

    Got a Canon ELPH 100 HS, the BSI sensor and years of processing improvements made indoor shots feasible.

    However, that summer, I picked up my 928...and that was it. Maybe not *quite* as good, but the xenon is a huge equalizer for a smartphone, and dat lowlight.

    Got an Icon (nee 929) about a year later...and it's just disappointing. Sunup to sundown, outdoors, it is pretty amazing. But that leaves a lot out of the picture.

    I recently bought a new Nokia smartphone to add to my collection, and also serve as a camera.

    The 808 I picked up a few weeks ago is better. The 928 - I take that over the 929.

    Would it kill MS to put the xenon/LED module in? Show THOSE photo samples on some TV commercials - EVERYONE would immediately understand and have experienced it.

    Get it down to f/2 again. Leave some dang options in - heck, put out an "advanced" version of the camera app if that makes them happy (with over sampling, dual captures, audio options, etc).

    Make it FAST. I know they seem to want to show off "hey look, it runs Office!" Like iOS and Android? :D Gaaah, show off all that Nokia imaging expertise you bought!

    This is a bit of a lost cause now, but, no 20mp is not in itself a problem. The Icon HAS given me so many brilliant shots through reframing (which I wish the 808 could do, but it just means a 1020 is on my list). And remember, reframing isn't just cropping - it's doing over sampling again on a selected portion as best as possible.
    RumoredNow, libra89, Yazen and 1 others like this.
    07-25-2015 09:38 AM
  14. Iain_S's Avatar
    it may still be a 20MP camera, but I doubt that it is the same 20MP camera.
    07-25-2015 04:53 PM
  15. RumoredNow's Avatar
    it may still be a 20MP camera, but I doubt that it is the same 20MP camera.
    That's why I'm anxious to hear more details as they come available. It awful coincidental that the 20 MP figure keeps getting put out there.
    07-25-2015 10:45 PM
  16. Yazen's Avatar
    I own the Lumia 1520 and the Nokia 808.

    Its amazing just how much ZEISS has improved their plastic lenses. CAF, OIS, finely grained manual controls, and living images are all state of the art. The Lumia 1520 has many, many whistles. I find snapping photos with the 1520 enjoyable, and theoretically speaking, image quality can always improve with firmware updates. (assuming they will ever be developed)

    Despite all this I feel as though the Nokia 808 has all the bells in the "traditional" sense. Larger sensor, hardware oversampling, faster takes, higher quality microphone array, xenon flash, ND filter, and accurate images are present on the 808. The problem with the 808 is that manual controls are not as comprehensive, and I have really grown accustomed to OIS.

    Overall I think the L1520 will be a top performer for another few years, as I have noticed that the Microsoft/Qualcomm partnership has done nothing good for their imaging.

    I should probably make comparisons sometime.

    EDIT: I think 20MP is overkill for Lumia phones. Their implementation of software interpolation defeats the purpose of having more pixels. If anything, more pixels would cause worse performance. A larger 16MP sensor would be killer. Their lenses are already very sharp, even the midrange 830 has a significantly sharper lens than the 920.
    07-26-2015 12:15 AM
  17. Nogitsune Micah's Avatar
    Personally compared to some of these android flagships, m9 looking at you. Even my 640 xl camera is on point.


    sent from my iPhone...asking myself why I own one
    RumoredNow likes this.
    07-26-2015 12:32 AM
  18. RumoredNow's Avatar
    I should probably make comparisons sometime.
    Definitely a shootout between the venerated 808 and 1520 would be appreciated in the Photography forums.
    mary beth hale likes this.
    07-26-2015 11:58 AM
  19. ArtificiallyYours's Avatar
    Camera technology is like the development and prototyping of Super Sports Cars, their tech and engineering are improving at a bustling rate so Megapixels is just a chapter of performance but not the only core aspect.

    Safe to say if you have the latest flagship with the 'greatest camera', in months or even just weeks its already bested. Speaking phones, to be clear.
    Yazen likes this.
    07-26-2015 06:13 PM
  20. psiu_glen's Avatar
    I think Yazen's post nails it - and another way to see the same thing is check out smartcam.club and allaboutwindowsphone.com - the 808 still runs neck and neck, imaging wise, with the latest phones.

    Edit: the 1020 is usually off in colors, but the OIS and BSI sensor bail it out in some cases as well. But it is also slow as mud all the time.

    The interface on newer apps is improved (oh, I would love some manual focus), but one thing I do appreciate is the accurate colors (no yellow cast here!) and the ability to tweak imaging settings - contrast, saturation, sharpness. If you want some more sharpening, have at it...if not, "apply in post".

    Will have to wait and see what they trot out...I think they missed many opportunities to make WP and now Lumia *the* mobile imaging platform. Will see if they bother with any effort or slap a me-too sensor in it and a "ooh triple-LED" flash and call it a day.
    RumoredNow and Yazen like this.
    07-27-2015 07:56 AM
  21. Yazen's Avatar
    I think Yazen's post nails it - and another way to see the same thing is check out smartcam.club and allaboutwindowsphone.com - the 808 still runs neck and neck, imaging wise, with the latest phones.

    Edit: the 1020 is usually off in colors, but the OIS and BSI sensor bail it out in some cases as well. But it is also slow as mud all the time.

    The interface on newer apps is improved (oh, I would love some manual focus), but one thing I do appreciate is the accurate colors (no yellow cast here!) and the ability to tweak imaging settings - contrast, saturation, sharpness. If you want some more sharpening, have at it...if not, "apply in post".

    Will have to wait and see what they trot out...I think they missed many opportunities to make WP and now Lumia *the* mobile imaging platform. Will see if they bother with any effort or slap a me-too sensor in it and a "ooh triple-LED" flash and call it a day.
    If they leverage their partnership with Qualcomm they could work to develop a discrete imaging processor.

    I once took over a hundred photos and still had plenty of battery to last me the day. Couldn't possibly do that on the L1020, even with the camera grip. Processing takes years!

    The software interpolation techniques they use are inferior. Nokia 808 has the imaging prowess to downsample photos. Very resource intensive on a CPU, need an imaging processor.

    Having a 41MP sensor on the 1020 is purely a waste of time. It's like taking all of your photos and scaling then down in Photoshop. The details aren't going to be as fine, so they sharpen their photos. End result looks worse than the original!

    Idea behind PureView was to take a large resolution image to make an amazing smaller resolution photo... 1520 fails to do this. 5MP image is grainy and looks awful.

    P.S: Hate how after the portico update phones like the 920 had yellow casting and Nokia/Microsoft never fixed it
    07-28-2015 09:06 AM
  22. psiu_glen's Avatar
    P.S: Hate how after the portico update phones like the 920 had yellow casting and Nokia/Microsoft never fixed it
    This times eleventy billion.

    The 808 might struggle sometimes in low light without a flash, but dang it gets them colors right ALWAYS. My 928 and 929 are pretty good, but turn the flash on and it can be a roll of the dice. Great shot. YELLOW SARAN WRAP! Kids frozen (928). BLURRY GREEN PEOPLE (929).

    :P
    Yazen likes this.
    07-28-2015 11:15 AM
  23. hopmedic's Avatar
    This times eleventy billion.

    The 808 might struggle sometimes in low light without a flash, but dang it gets them colors right ALWAYS. My 928 and 929 are pretty good, but turn the flash on and it can be a roll of the dice. Great shot. YELLOW SARAN WRAP! Kids frozen (928). BLURRY GREEN PEOPLE (929).

    :P
    Yes, I do hate to use the flash on my Icon. I almost NEVER use it, regardless of lighting conditions. I hold the camera as steady as I can, against something solid if possible, and go for it with the slower shutter speed, unless it is absolutely impossible with the conditions.
    RumoredNow and Yazen like this.
    07-28-2015 02:23 PM
  24. psiu_glen's Avatar
    By the way, NEW 808's are on eBay for $120 right now. Got mine about a month ago at $130. Big stash of Telcel units evidently - the boxes appear to be opened so they can be unlocked, but otherwise, mint.

    As a camera it's still impressive, as a portable vacation media unit I'm looking forward to this fall. Micro-HDMI out, 3.5 headphone jack with TV-out, DLNA wireless video out, micro-SD, USB-OTG, FM receive AND transmit. Giggity.

    Just an FYI if anyone wants a toy!
    RumoredNow and Yazen like this.
    07-28-2015 07:05 PM
  25. maverick786us's Avatar
    20.1 MP is sufficient. I own Cannon 70D which is a semi-professional DSLR. What we want is better image quality, with as much details as possible, without super-sampling it to mere 5MP. We can't leave low light images at the same time.

    Optimus G4 has 16MP camera, and I believe it has the best smartphone camera (if we leave Nokia 808 and Lumia 1020 aside). When you compare the image quality, the amount of details, it is much better than Lumia 930. Off course 930 uses 2.5 year imaging technology that is used in Lumia 1520.

    But imagine a 20.1 MP camera with details, clarity as good as that of Optimus G4, without super-sampling it to 5MP, for that we need bigger sensors, bigger lens and a power CPU. If you have bigger sensor, the image quality is always better, sharper, with more details, but the downside is, it takes time to capture and post-processing. For that you need a powerful CPU.

    1520 and 930 were just the entry points. There is much more, that a 20.1 MP camera can deliver.
    NokiaBeast likes this.
    07-29-2015 01:48 AM
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