11-30-2015 03:25 PM
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  1. taymur's Avatar
    Ok, first of all, let me get this out there, I think Microsoft told reviewers not to say the word windows 10 mobile, because its weird that all of them are saying that the 950 is running windows 10.

    That said, is the 950 and the 950 XL really running something different from the old generation, like the 930 and the 1520?

    Finally, how come 950 has USB OTG, and the 930 does not? i really do not think its a hardware thing, because my old Nokia n8 had USB OTG, with mouse and keyboard support.
    11-22-2015 01:00 AM
  2. tangledW's Avatar
    Whaaaaaaat?
    11-22-2015 01:04 AM
  3. ashram's Avatar
    Ok, first of all, let me get this out there, I think Microsoft told reviewers not to say the word windows 10 mobile, because its weird that all of them are saying that the 950 is running windows 10.
    Well, it is Windows 10, the same way the xbox, PC and iot all have Windows 10. It would feel weird to have to say Windows 10 mobile over and over again. we all know what it is, so it's not that big of a deal.

    That said, is the 950 and the 950 XL really running something different from the old generation, like the 930 and the 1520?
    The build the 950's are running are just tweaked for their specific hardware. Not really that different with the exception of the divers and new features supported (Windows Hello, Continuum, etc)

    Finally, how come 950 has USB OTG, and the 930 does not? i really do not think its a hardware thing, because my old Nokia n8 had USB OTG, with mouse and keyboard support.
    OTG has to be enabled in hardware AND software. doesn't matter if another phone had it or not.Does the 930 have everything that is needed? who knows! We can speculate all day and still, no clue.

    Granted, this topic seems more specific to Windows 10 MOBILE over the 950 specifically....
    11-22-2015 01:27 AM
  4. taymur's Avatar
    I mean, the reviews got me confused, if its windows 10 mobile, then they have to say that, and not say windows 10.

    when i read windows 10, and the reviewer starts showing continuum, as an average customer i will start thinking that this will work as a PC.


    setting people to the same disappointment that happened with RT.
    Last edited by taymur; 11-23-2015 at 12:39 AM. Reason: extra word
    11-22-2015 01:43 AM
  5. a5cent's Avatar
    The build the 950's are running are just tweaked for their specific hardware. Not really that different with the exception of the divers and new features supported (Windows Hello, Continuum, etc)....
    The question here is: "different from what?"

    If you are just comparing between WM/WP devices, that statement is correct. If you are comparing W10M to W10, which is what the OP is asking, then that statement is incorrect. They are definitely not the same.

    W10 and W10M share some common components, so certain parts are identical. But they are no more "the same" than a truck and a car are the same. Such vehicles may share some components, like the seat and the steering wheel, but that doesn't make them the same either.

    That MS asked sites to refer to W10M as Windows 10 (omitting Mobile), is not that far fetched. I do think MS would prefer the average consumer to think of it that way, as it's the easiest way to drive home their marketing messages, despite it being technically false.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-22-2015 at 02:23 PM. Reason: formatting only
    11-22-2015 01:57 AM
  6. wplust's Avatar
    It is extremely misleading to call the phone operating stem Windows 10 as the phone software does not have the desktop capability, and cannot run any desktop programs. Maybe someday everything will be an app, but that day is not here.
    Ed Boland likes this.
    11-22-2015 09:23 PM
  7. Skyway's Avatar
    Why would you expect a phone to run the full desktop version of an os? I though it was fairly obvious it won't since they use different architecture for the processors and it's a phone, not a computer. However, this is essentially what MS wants to do in the future. One OS across all devices, but we are pretty far from that yet.

    That would be like buying a truck with a v8 engine and then expecting it to perform the same as the sports car with a v8 from the same manufacture. They may both use the same engine block, but the rest of the components and the body are different, resulting in different performances.
    libra89 likes this.
    11-22-2015 09:51 PM
  8. Allen Rhodes's Avatar
    It's. Just. Windows. 10. Not that difficult. People can call it "mobile", but it's W10.
    11-22-2015 11:49 PM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    It's. Just. Windows. 10. Not that difficult. People can call it "mobile", but it's W10.
    No, it's really not. It's missing almost all Win32 related dlls for example.
    jmshub, Kram Sacul, taymur and 1 others like this.
    11-23-2015 12:28 AM
  10. taymur's Avatar
    Why would you expect a phone to run the full desktop version of an os? I though it was fairly obvious it won't since they use different architecture for the processors and it's a phone, not a computer. However, this is essentially what MS wants to do in the future. One OS across all devices, but we are pretty far from that yet.

    That would be like buying a truck with a v8 engine and then expecting it to perform the same as the sports car with a v8 from the same manufacture. They may both use the same engine block, but the rest of the components and the body are different, resulting in different performances.
    I know that most of the people on this website wont expect it to run desktop version programs.

    but when The Verge says that the 950 runs windows 10, and goes around showing how it works as a computer with the dock, screen, keyboard and mouse.... the average person would think its a computer with windows 10 with a phone form factor.

    Windows Central said that the 950 runs windows 10 in their USB OTG video.

    I think this play on words is confusing for people who are not used to this platform.

    Microsoft just recreated the Windows and windows RT dilemma again.
    11-23-2015 12:42 AM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    Why would you expect a phone to run the full desktop version of an os? I though it was fairly obvious it won't since they use different architecture for the processors and it's a phone, not a computer. However, this is essentially what MS wants to do in the future.
    That's naturally what people expect, when you give something the same name. They expect things with the same name to be the same thing. Windows RT was already too similar, so that name also raised false expectations. Many assumed RT to be some new edition of Windows, analog to Home or Pro, both of which have always run desktop software... RT couldn't.

    The different CPU architectures aren't an obvious indicator either, because universal apps (or any other pure .net application) DO run on both ARM and x86. If a lot of software runs on any CPU (even MS Office ran on ARM), it will confound many why a lot of other desktop software would not.

    My point is that while it's technically ridiculous to expect desktop software to run on W10M, people need quite a bit of information to understand why. Without that information, that false expectation doesn't seem so unreasonable. Just calling it W10 then enforces such false notions.

    I'd also argue that MS does NOT (ever) intend to completely converge both OSes and end up with only one! As long as Windows must compete with low-end Android phones and tablets, MS needs a stripped down version of Windows that doesn't have the same hardware requirements as full blown Windows. Compared to W10, W10M runs on devices with half the RAM, 1/10th the storage, and far less power. It's not that you can't run full Windows on a smartphone sized device. It's that you can't do it at a price that competes with Android.

    As long as MS must compete with lowest-end Android, W10 and W10M will remain separate and different products that share some identical components.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-23-2015 at 04:14 AM. Reason: formatting only
    Ed Boland and taymur like this.
    11-23-2015 12:56 AM
  12. taymur's Avatar
    Agreed, what is happening is setting up people for disappointment. just like what happened with RT.

    Even Apple is facing the same thing now with their iPad "Pro".
    11-23-2015 04:05 AM
  13. Pete's Avatar
    RT was killed by uninformed journalists who just kept repeating the fact that it was a "crippled" version of windows that couldn't run .exe applications. The fact that it was actually a really good tablet OS just didn't occur to anyone.

    Windows 10 Mobile is very different. The main technology journalists know what the situation is and no one has complained that it doesn't run native Windows programs so I don't know where your confusion is coming from here.
    realwarder and Argaron like this.
    11-23-2015 04:30 AM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    RT was killed by uninformed journalists who just kept repeating the fact that it was a "crippled" version of windows that couldn't run .exe applications. The fact that it was actually a really good tablet OS just didn't occur to anyone.

    Windows 10 Mobile is very different. The main technology journalists know what the situation is and no one has complained that it doesn't run native Windows programs so I don't know where your confusion is coming from here.
    The confusion comes from many journalists just calling it Windows 10. With that name comes expectations... false expectations... just as with Windows RT.

    MS also once insisted on calling it just Windows 10. During that time we also had a lot of people here asking if, or how well, it would run desktop software on phones.

    This thread shows that even some people on WCentral are still confused about what W10M is and is not.
    11-23-2015 05:52 AM
  15. Pete's Avatar
    The confusion comes from many journalists just calling it Windows 10. With that name comes expectations... false expectations... just as with Windows RT.
    Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but I've not read any tech blog/review express confusion as to why the phone can't run traditional windows programs.
    realwarder likes this.
    11-23-2015 05:54 AM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but I've not read any tech blog/review express confusion as to why the phone can't run traditional windows programs.
    True. But it will raise false expectations regardless. Expectations that won't be met.

    Why not just insist on reviewers naming the OS as it should be, and make it more clear this is not and never will be just W10?
    taymur likes this.
    11-23-2015 05:59 AM
  17. tgp's Avatar
    RT was killed by uninformed journalists who just kept repeating the fact that it was a "crippled" version of windows that couldn't run .exe applications. The fact that it was actually a really good tablet OS just didn't occur to anyone.
    Why are things like this always "someone else's" fault? RT was killed by its own shortcomings. Sure, it was a good tablet OS. It also relied on apps, which were virtually nonexistent. Because of this, its usefulness had a quite narrow scope.
    theefman and taymur like this.
    11-23-2015 06:00 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    Why are things like this always "someone else's" fault? RT was killed by its own shortcomings. Sure, it was a good tablet OS. It also relied on apps, which were virtually nonexistent. Because of this, its usefulness had a quite narrow scope.

    Pete is surely correct in noting the "tech" press significantly contributed to RT's demise. Some reviewers viewed it as a tablet, while others viewed it as a laptop, while each critiqued it for how it didn't live up to what they thought it was.

    Few understood it was simultaneously both and neither.

    Who's at fault is debatable. We could argue MS was at fault for failing to communicate what it was, raising false expectations, or for neglecting to explain who it was for. The tech press could also be faulted for being technically incompetent and just not understanding it, but that's nothing new.

    Either way it doesn't really matter. That chapter is over.
    Kevin Rush and tgp like this.
    11-23-2015 06:27 AM
  19. tgp's Avatar
    Who's at fault is debatable. We could argue MS was at fault for failing to communicate what it was, raising false expectations, or for neglecting to explain who it was for. The tech press could also be faulted for being technically incompetent and just not understanding it, but that's nothing new.
    If Microsoft would have accurately communicated what it really was, few would have bought it anyway. It would have failed anyway. In the end, it was Microsoft's fault for producing a tablet that was suitable for a few users who needed something for a limited productivity scenario, and little else.

    Sure, if you and a bunch of friends want to fly around a table clicking the kickstands, or if you're a baseball scout who needs to video conference with your superior while browsing the web, get a Surface RT. Other than that, look for something else like a tablet with full Windows.
    11-23-2015 06:53 AM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    If Microsoft would have accurately communicated what it really was, few would have bought it anyway. It would have failed anyway. In the end, it was Microsoft's fault for producing a tablet that was suitable for a few users who needed something for a limited productivity scenario, and little else.

    Sure, if you and a bunch of friends want to fly around a table clicking the kickstands, or if you're a baseball scout who needs to video conference with your superior while browsing the web, get a Surface RT. Other than that, look for something else like a tablet with full Windows.

    Maybe. It's hard to say what would have been.

    I think most consumers are generally swayed more by hype than anything else, and the media does notably contribute to that. I think that's far more important than how good a product actually is, or isn't.

    If that affects consumers, it also affects developers, and so is set in motion a positive cycle...

    I agree RT was far from perfect, and definitely had its faults, but so does every other fledgling product. I don't agree that it was doomed to fail from the outset.

    Anyway, the point being made here is that MS should avoid the errors made in the past and avoid suggesting, in every possible way, that a product is something it isn't.
    Ed Boland, tgp and Kevin Rush like this.
    11-23-2015 07:49 AM
  21. Ed Boland's Avatar
    AT&T is doing the same thing; advertising the Lumia 950 as running "Windows 10"

    t_win10.jpg

    While I understand the differences myself, as most of us here on the site do, I do get a kick out of showing people at work my 1520 and telling them that it's running "Windows 10". Of course I'm the only one at work with a Windows Phone; everyone else has iPhones or Android phones. If I somehow convinced someone to switch and get a Windows phone, I'd then be obligated to explain "oh, this is Windows 10 Mobile... it's a little different", but I hardly see that happening. I feel that maybe Microsoft is employing this same sort of "tactic" to intrigue or lure people to the platform, which currently may be a sort of "bait and switch" scenario, but perhaps in a not so distant future, when the x86 Intel phones become a reality, Windows 10 Mobile, and Windows 10 may become more one and the same.

    In other words, a year or two from now, when we pull our phones out of our pockets, I don't think we'll be lying when we say "this is Windows 10".
    920Walker and Skyway like this.
    11-23-2015 10:32 AM
  22. a5cent's Avatar
    ...but perhaps in a not so distant future, when the x86 Intel phones become a reality, Windows 10 Mobile, and Windows 10 may become more one and the same.

    In other words, a year or two from now, when we pull our phones out of our pockets, I don't think we'll be lying when we say "this is Windows 10".
    I can't say what MS is thinking (or even directly responsible for) in terms of their W10 vs W10M communication strategy, but I can comment on the above:

    not happening

    If (or more likely when) an x86 based WM phone is released, it will actually run W10, not W10M. So, you're right that we'll then be able to say, without lying, that such a device is running W10. However, that doesn't mean W10M will have served its purpose and just fade away.

    Both W10 and W10M have their place and their role to play. Neither can fully replace the other without MS loosing many strategically important capabilities. W10M will stick around for as long as MS decides to compete with Android in the affordable smartphone and tablet market.

    The day MS terminates W10M, and leaves us only with full W10, is likely the day MS exits the smartphone market altogether.
    taymur likes this.
    11-23-2015 11:10 AM
  23. Krystianpants's Avatar
    I think people understand the limitations of a phone versus a full powerful desktop. MS's true vision of windows 10 is actually to phase out the w32 api. It's part of why they are pushing everyone to upgrade and are pushing their developer tools to convert w32 apps. When that day happens they don't want to re-brand their products, it will still just be windows 10. So really their marketing is not incorrect for their vision of what windows 10 is. We all know windows 10 isn't really complete yet. Their updates will slowly come and help people adjust to the full blown change rather than throwing the change at them all at once.

    While the ads may be a bit misleading. They are no different from what any other marketing team may be doing. When a customer plugs in their phone into a pc the expectation is that they will only be running the apps that are on their phone. Their phone can't run w32 apps to begin with so why would they expect it to do so all of a sudden? Nobody will expect anything different. And so once more apps are converted to UWP they will be able to run all their apps from their phone on the big screen. So technically they are just running windows 10 the way windows 10 is meant to run. Currently windows 10 for desktop is a mix match of windows 10 and previous versions.

    MS just has to be careful with how they phase out the w32 api and in what time frame. Right now the push is to get developers to jump on their own by giving incentives. And they really need to give api's that are very close to what w32 offers. My guess is that with centennial it seems it can support the vast majority of w32 apps.
    Aaron Graves likes this.
    11-23-2015 11:23 AM
  24. realwarder's Avatar
    I can't say what MS is thinking (or even directly responsible for) in terms of their W10 vs W10M communication strategy, but I can comment on the above:

    not happening

    If (or more likely when) an x86 based WM phone is released, it will actually run W10, not W10M. So, you're right that we'll then be able to say, without lying, that such a device is running W10. However, that doesn't mean W10M will have served its purpose and just fade away.

    Both W10 and W10M have their place and their role to play. Neither can fully replace the other without MS loosing many strategically important capabilities. W10M will stick around for as long as MS decides to compete with Android in the affordable smartphone and tablet market.

    The day MS terminates W10M, and leaves us only with full W10, is likely the day MS exits the smartphone market altogether.
    I think you're interpretation of what is Windows 10 may be different from Microsoft's. You are looking from a user perspective, saying that the desktop UI and having Win32 compatibility is required. Microsoft is looking at it from the kernel, drivers and focusing on UWP which is supported on IoT, phone, desktop, Xbox. For them, Win32 is a compatibility layer, more so when you start looking at the vision of Centennial which starts pulling old Win32 apps into a more managed UWP VM.

    I don't deny that the average user thinks Windows is a PC with desktop that runs any Win32 legacy app, but I'm not sure that's what Microsoft sees for the future. And for that reason, the phone really is running Windows 10.
    11-23-2015 02:26 PM
  25. Giddora's Avatar
    Lumia 950 and all other W10 phones are running Windows 10 with the new runtime... The same runtime as you can find n PC's. The only difference is that on PC's you have the old win32 runtimes still laying around for now.

    In short: W10 phones are running Windows 10. It has the same driverstack, kernel... Everything. The only thing it does not have is the old x86/amd64 (win32) runtime environment. Simple as that.
    11-23-2015 03:27 PM
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