03-29-2013 11:33 AM
46 12
tools
  1. Mystictrust's Avatar
    About CalDAV, I understand that now, developers using CalDAV Google Sync will have to apply for whitelisting; and Matt Cutts posted that it will be a fast, free, painless process. All the major players (iOS, BB, and yes, Microsoft) will be able to transparently use CalDAV without any problems. This handles like 99% of the use case. What's the problem?
    So great, keep CalDAV around for everyone else to be able to use... that'll work fine. My fear in this case is that if (when?) iOS jumps on board with Google's silly little proprietary thing, Google decides to cut support for the "aging/old/horrible" CalDAV system and cuts everyone else out. I suppose they could get cocky though and cut out iOS once enough Android users are off old devices that don't support their new proprietary thing... that could force any Google account holder to choose between another OS or using their contacts/calendars with an Android device.

    Chances are high though that Google will want to stick with iPhone and give them access simply because of marketshare (they wouldn't want a huge negative PR nightmare), but Windows Phone is out no matter what.
    03-15-2013 05:13 PM
  2. kishorekumar_a's Avatar
    Point taken. I will however point out that the one statement supporting Google (rational, without vulgar language) was immediately jumped upon while other posts which were neither, were ignored.

    About CalDAV, I understand that now, developers using CalDAV Google Sync will have to apply for whitelisting; and Matt Cutts posted that it will be a fast, free, painless process. All the major players (iOS, BB, and yes, Microsoft) will be able to transparently use CalDAV without any problems. This handles like 99% of the use case. What's the problem?
    Sorry for making you feel like I singled you out. I just came online then and yours was the first comment I saw. Though I replied to your post, it was supposed to be for everyone posting. It didn't work it seems, as it immediately deteriorated in to politics. Sorry once again.

    About white listing of developers, it does not make sense for the developers to apply for white list for as simple a matter as calender sync. They would rather simply go over to the Google Calendar API and slowly the CalDAV will become forgotten. That is what I am afraid of, Google using large market share in its mail and services to push every thing towards google products and open standards being nothing more than tools used for this purpose. It becomes more worrying if corporations like Microsoft catches up to this plot, and decides to use it themselves. Ultimately, this is a loss for the open standards only.
    dukrem likes this.
    03-15-2013 08:02 PM
  3. kishorekumar_a's Avatar
    Just read a news from WMPoweruser. Microsoft themselves removed the support for the calendar and contact sync in the recent update for WP7 temporarily until support for CalDAV and CardDAV arrives. This will push the existing users toward Outlook, at least that's what Microsoft most likely wants to achieve. This is what I am afraid of, major corporations playing like this instead of honestly supporting open standards. The result is loss for the end user.
    03-15-2013 08:21 PM
  4. ag1986's Avatar
    Sorry for making you feel like I singled you out. I just came online then and yours was the first comment I saw. Though I replied to your post, it was supposed to be for everyone posting. It didn't work it seems, as it immediately deteriorated in to politics. Sorry once again.

    About white listing of developers, it does not make sense for the developers to apply for white list for as simple a matter as calender sync. They would rather simply go over to the Google Calendar API and slowly the CalDAV will become forgotten. That is what I am afraid of, Google using large market share in its mail and services to push every thing towards google products and open standards being nothing more than tools used for this purpose. It becomes more worrying if corporations like Microsoft catches up to this plot, and decides to use it themselves. Ultimately, this is a loss for the open standards only.
    Catching up to the plot? EAS was proprietary and worse, paid!

    Perhaps I'm ignorant, but in my six years of using smartphones (T-Mobile/HTC G1, Nexus One, iPhone 4, Lumia 610, Galaxy Nexus, L920 & Nexus 4) I've never used anything but the built-in calendar/contacts apps. I've come across apps that are basically a front-end to the existing databases, but the actual sync mechanism has been baked into the OS. Now, iOS has support for calDAV, WP will soon have it as well. Likewise BB et al. Android is the only OS that includes both the Google calendar API, but DAV works just as well (on iOS at least). My perspective is that as long as the OS sync mechanisms work, there's nothing to worry about. Of course, if there are widely used third-party calendar apps, please let me know.

    Remember that apps can still read/write to the phone calendar and this syncs using whatever the protocol is. For example, TripIT. I enter a flight number and date; TripIT then creates appropriate calendar entries for me. This will still be possible because TripIT doesn't care if my phone is using EAS, DAV or gCal.
    03-16-2013 04:09 AM
  5. ag1986's Avatar
    So great, keep CalDAV around for everyone else to be able to use... that'll work fine. My fear in this case is that if (when?) iOS jumps on board with Google's silly little proprietary thing, Google decides to cut support for the "aging/old/horrible" CalDAV system and cuts everyone else out. I suppose they could get cocky though and cut out iOS once enough Android users are off old devices that don't support their new proprietary thing... that could force any Google account holder to choose between another OS or using their contacts/calendars with an Android device.

    Chances are high though that Google will want to stick with iPhone and give them access simply because of marketshare (they wouldn't want a huge negative PR nightmare), but Windows Phone is out no matter what.
    Apple doesn't have a horse in this race. They don't have ulterior motives of wanting their phone customers to use Gmail or Outlook. So it is in their best interest to support as many platforms as possible.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    03-16-2013 04:10 AM
  6. kishorekumar_a's Avatar
    Catching up to the plot? EAS was proprietary and worse, paid!

    Perhaps I'm ignorant, but in my six years of using smartphones (T-Mobile/HTC G1, Nexus One, iPhone 4, Lumia 610, Galaxy Nexus, L920 & Nexus 4) I've never used anything but the built-in calendar/contacts apps. I've come across apps that are basically a front-end to the existing databases, but the actual sync mechanism has been baked into the OS. Now, iOS has support for calDAV, WP will soon have it as well. Likewise BB et al. Android is the only OS that includes both the Google calendar API, but DAV works just as well (on iOS at least). My perspective is that as long as the OS sync mechanisms work, there's nothing to worry about. Of course, if there are widely used third-party calendar apps, please let me know.

    Remember that apps can still read/write to the phone calendar and this syncs using whatever the protocol is. For example, TripIT. I enter a flight number and date; TripIT then creates appropriate calendar entries for me. This will still be possible because TripIT doesn't care if my phone is using EAS, DAV or gCal.
    That's the problem, isn't it? that they are cutting of CalDAV. I'm not just talking about major players, what about the small app developers who develop well designed calendars with CalDAV protocal. How about future developers of calendars? Will they have to resort to Google Calender API for sync with google account? What happened to going open standards?

    Example if widely used calendars:

    Business calendar - Play store
    Vsys Calendar - WP Store
    My daily planner - WP store
    03-16-2013 04:27 AM
  7. EauRouge's Avatar
    yeah google is really irritating me lately. they are trying to bully everyone a little too hard and the consumer gets shafted
    03-16-2013 10:30 AM
  8. kishorekumar_a's Avatar
    yeah google is really irritating me lately. they are trying to bully everyone a little too hard and the consumer gets shafted
    Exactly. The one's most affected are the developers and end users.
    03-16-2013 12:07 PM
  9. jhoff80's Avatar
    Catching up to the plot? EAS was proprietary and worse, paid!
    Except everything has support for EAS, because it continues to be the best solution for the end-user. Google pulled EAS support under the guise of making things more free and open (getting a lot of support from the open-source zealots) with a 'superior' standard that isn't really, and a few months later closed down this access to go to something else proprietary that nobody has support for. As mentioned already, it's hostile to the users, and it's hostile to the developers.

    Yes, they're saying for now Microsoft has access to CalDAV, but Google has now shown that if they feel like it, they'll drop everything with no regard for the people dependent on something, like they're doing with Google Reader and like they did with EAS (until Microsoft begged for an extension). Maybe you're fine with that, but I'm not.
    03-16-2013 06:05 PM
  10. trwrt's Avatar
    I would guess Google probably decided they could no longer justify paying a licensing fee for EAS and then giving it away for free. Maybe if that cuddly champion of the users Microsoft would offer them a no-cost EAS license ("think of the children!") they would be able to keep doing it?
    03-17-2013 01:16 AM
  11. kishorekumar_a's Avatar
    I would guess Google probably decided they could no longer justify paying a licensing fee for EAS and then giving it away for free. Maybe if that cuddly champion of the users Microsoft would offer them a no-cost EAS license ("think of the children!") they would be able to keep doing it?
    The EAS is not a pay per user license, it's a collective license. Meaning that they pay the same amount even now to provide the service for existing users and will pay the same amount even if a million new users joined Gmail tomorrow and used EAS. The total payment amount does not depend on the total number of users. That in itself makes your point moot, as they are already paying the license fee for their paid users. First get a good knowledge on how this particular licensing works before accusing Microsoft for everything.

    Oh they are not giving it away for free. They are providing the service in exchange for the information collected about you and the opportunity to advertise to you. Look at it neutrally, or better yet from a consumer point of view, we are the ones who are affect because of this and the developers.

    Regardless, this topic is not about dropping EAS support but about dropping CalDAV support. That did not cost them anything did it? So why did they drop support for it? Why switch over to proprietary Google Calendar API after saying they are going for open standards? Why mislead the users and developers deliberately? I can go on... But answer these questions if you can...
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    03-17-2013 01:44 AM
  12. rhodri22's Avatar
    Oh they are not giving it away for free. They are providing the service in exchange for the information collected about you and the opportunity to advertise to you. Look at it neutrally, or better yet from a consumer point of view, we are the ones who are affect because of this and the developers.

    Agreed. If this was a completely free, and ad-free, service then I wouldn't care about what they were doing because you're getting something for free. But because they're targeting you to use their service with their ads you deserve to get the best service that can be offered. That means open standards that can be used by everyone, regardless of OS.

    IMO this is just Google stepping slightly closer to a massive fine from either the FTC or the EU for monopolistic / anti competitive practices.
    03-17-2013 04:14 AM
  13. rdubmu's Avatar
    What are you talking about?

    I have my outlook.com set up on my iPhone, work iPad, WP8, and my W8 machine. It syncs everything, email, contacts, and calendar on all devices.
    outlook doesn't work on a MAC. You only get pop3 access. Even with outlook 2011 for the MAC. It only gets pop3.

    The other issue is Google Calendar is far superior to most things out there. I personally believe it is one of their best products.
    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Board Express
    03-17-2013 04:24 AM
  14. ag1986's Avatar
    The EAS is not a pay per user license, it's a collective license. Meaning that they pay the same amount even now to provide the service for existing users and will pay the same amount even if a million new users joined Gmail tomorrow and used EAS. The total payment amount does not depend on the total number of users. That in itself makes your point moot, as they are already paying the license fee for their paid users. First get a good knowledge on how this particular licensing works before accusing Microsoft for everything.

    Oh they are not giving it away for free. They are providing the service in exchange for the information collected about you and the opportunity to advertise to you. Look at it neutrally, or better yet from a consumer point of view, we are the ones who are affect because of this and the developers.

    Regardless, this topic is not about dropping EAS support but about dropping CalDAV support. That did not cost them anything did it? So why did they drop support for it? Why switch over to proprietary Google Calendar API after saying they are going for open standards? Why mislead the users and developers deliberately? I can go on... But answer these questions if you can...
    EAS licensing works on a slab basis, i.e. if you have say from 100 -1000 users you pay X and if you have from 1000 - 100K you pay Y etc. I'm assuming that since consumer Gmail accounts probably account for like 90% of all Gmail, Google is saving a lot of money this way. I can't find fault with that.

    Stop saying DAV support is DISABLED. It's still very much there and for a given developer to get whitelisted, it's a matter of filling out a form, and the process will be as simple as applying to publish an app for the Play Store, which is easy enough (source: friends who develop for Android heard from Google developer relations).
    03-17-2013 04:37 AM
  15. kishorekumar_a's Avatar
    outlook doesn't work on a MAC. You only get pop3 access. Even with outlook 2011 for the MAC. It only gets pop3.

    The other issue is Google Calendar is far superior to most things out there. I personally believe it is one of their best products.
    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Board Express
    Isn't EAS or IMAP possible on Mac?

    I agree Google calendar is good. But they are being so frustrating, that they are making some leave. I don't even know any device that supports Google Calendar API. Does even Android support it? They should make it accessible through as many protocols to ease the customer, but they are cutting off other protocols for pushing their own standard. That's what makes me mad.

    By the way, Outlook's calendar is good too.
    03-17-2013 04:38 AM
  16. ag1986's Avatar
    I would guess Google probably decided they could no longer justify paying a licensing fee for EAS and then giving it away for free. Maybe if that cuddly champion of the users Microsoft would offer them a no-cost EAS license ("think of the children!") they would be able to keep doing it?
    Exactly. If MS stepped up and said 'hey Google, here's a free EAS license' I'd applaud them for it (and diss Goog).
    03-17-2013 04:38 AM
  17. kishorekumar_a's Avatar
    EAS licensing works on a slab basis, i.e. if you have say from 100 -1000 users you pay X and if you have from 1000 - 100K you pay Y etc. I'm assuming that since consumer Gmail accounts probably account for like 90% of all Gmail, Google is saving a lot of money this way. I can't find fault with that.

    Stop saying DAV support is DISABLED. It's still very much there and for a given developer to get whitelisted, it's a matter of filling out a form, and the process will be as simple as applying to publish an app for the Play Store, which is easy enough (source: friends who develop for Android heard from Google developer relations).
    Why is whitelisting needed?
    03-17-2013 04:40 AM
  18. ag1986's Avatar
    Why is whitelisting needed?
    Taking a wild guess, security?

    An app that needs to access your Google account DIRECTLY (as opposed to via built-in OS account authentication) will need your Google username and password, instead of just needing the Read/Write Calendar permission (this is how it is on Android. I don't know if WP/iOS have similar permission models). This means that such an app will be able to access your entire Google account, including Mail, Drive, etc. So this way, Google can keep track of who has permission to access such data and prevent app developers with known violations from hurting users.
    03-17-2013 04:53 AM
  19. kishorekumar_a's Avatar
    Taking a wild guess, security?

    An app that needs to access your Google account DIRECTLY (as opposed to via built-in OS account authentication) will need your Google username and password, instead of just needing the Read/Write Calendar permission (this is how it is on Android. I don't know if WP/iOS have similar permission models). This means that such an app will be able to access your entire Google account, including Mail, Drive, etc. So this way, Google can keep track of who has permission to access such data and prevent app developers with known violations from hurting users.
    So why is it not needed for Google Calendar API or CardDAV or IMAP or even EAS? After all, all of them work in the same way (the application stores your password) on Android as well as WP.

    And is not app authentication by you there for that tracking? You know that page asking your permission to allow the app access the first time you login from that particular app (Sorry, I don't know the name for that page. So I had to describe it.)
    03-17-2013 05:09 AM
  20. hyderaly's Avatar
    I don't like Google either. I feel being watched over by BigB when using Google Services... But when it comes to standards... I would say MS is no better.
    Try setting up a hotmail account on a mac. At best you will get POP access. Does MS have CalDav, CardDav support? No. At the end of the day, it is about walled gardens... And none is better than the others.
    03-29-2013 11:24 AM
  21. MinnesotaSteve's Avatar
    Embrace, Extend, Extinguish
    03-29-2013 11:33 AM
46 12

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