05-21-2013 09:59 PM
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  1. WinFan1's Avatar
    And they still have a stock price and market cap far higher than MS. Truth be told, it was a sad day when Ballmer took over MS. Gates was a visionary, MS did scummy things under him but those were different days and times. He got things done - nowadays all MS does seem to be tantrum ad campaigns. I do respect the non-tiled parts of Win8 and the nice things they do with Office, though.
    i dont agree with that at all. i believe currently ms is moving forward in the correct direction. the tiles are a refreshing look, whether you like it or not is completely up to you. Bill Gates was a hard worker, and your right he got things done, but the only reason ms isnt doing hot right now is because of negatively perpetuated points of view about the company, specifically speaking in terms of product reviews, constant scrutiny over change which i for one am a huge fan of, and the name which for some reason doesnt resonate well in the tech world regardless of the amount of work and innovation they are trying to bring to their products. I see it, why cant anyone else.
    LYZ1999 likes this.
    03-27-2013 02:10 PM
  2. EasilyTheBest's Avatar
    Again i cannot find the link but an absolute brilliant read is on seeking alpha its about Google and Android and its competition Microsoft.
    The link was posted earlier in this thread. Give it a read.
    03-27-2013 06:01 PM
  3. JMBasquiat's Avatar
    The loss is yours.
    No it isn't. Every single Google service I used (GMail, YouTube) has a competitor that offers equivalent - if not better - services/software. GMail? Outlook. YouTube? Vimeo.

    So no, it isn't my loss at all and drop the patronizing tone; I didn't say Google "owed" me anything, merely that what they're doing is not simply business, but also personal. And for that, they lost me as a customer. They might not care - I don't either.
    03-27-2013 06:21 PM
  4. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    No it isn't. Every single Google service I used (GMail, YouTube) has a competitor that offers equivalent - if not better - services/software. GMail? Outlook. YouTube? Vimeo.

    So no, it isn't my loss at all and drop the patronizing tone; I didn't say Google "owed" me anything, merely that what they're doing is not simply business, but also personal. And for that, they lost me as a customer. They might not care - I don't either.
    In all fairness, his tone wasn't patronising. Also, I'll admit, I do use YouTube and my developer and radio email accounts are GMail, but my Perso-Professional account is with Outlook. Search? I sway between both Bing and Google (haven't been able to completely bingify myself yet). So yeah, I work them without apps, I'll be honest. But on my phone, I near enough exclusively use Bing.
    03-27-2013 07:15 PM
  5. omniusovermind's Avatar
    Actually it wouldn't support ur point at all. Sorry. But that was slick trying to play both hands. Can't have ur cake and eat it too.
    Actually it would and I can

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    03-27-2013 08:24 PM
  6. OzRob's Avatar
    I think it's an outrage that a company would use it's near-monopoly power to force customers to use it's products and services over others. It's anti-competitive! A web browser simply should not be so deeply embedded into the operating system that users can't easily install a browser of their choice, or have to go to enormous trouble to....oh wait. That wasn't Google, was it?
    03-27-2013 10:41 PM
  7. WinFan1's Avatar
    Actually it would and I can

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    Lol i was gonna reply to him with that same answer cuz physically you can lol but i decided nah i get what he was trying to say lol :p
    03-28-2013 07:14 AM
  8. ag1986's Avatar
    i dont agree with that at all. i believe currently ms is moving forward in the correct direction. the tiles are a refreshing look, whether you like it or not is completely up to you. Bill Gates was a hard worker, and your right he got things done, but the only reason ms isnt doing hot right now is because of negatively perpetuated points of view about the company, specifically speaking in terms of product reviews, constant scrutiny over change which i for one am a huge fan of, and the name which for some reason doesnt resonate well in the tech world regardless of the amount of work and innovation they are trying to bring to their products. I see it, why cant anyone else.
    Because they're playing catch-up. The way I perceive it is like Ballmer is the jealous kid, looking at what the cool kids have and going like "i want that too", things like Apple's dominance of the mobile and tablet market and Google's dominance over search and web services. He does not realise that MS has its own core strengths, things like Windows and the Office ecosystem and it is these things that they should be focusing on.

    If at all it is needed for MS to become a player in search/mobile, they need to have something that will take the average consumer (NOT the wpcentral denizen) and absolutely wow him. Getting Instagram or Vine or whatever doesn't do it, that's playing catchup. MS is in a race where the top players are literally several laps ahead and trying to just match will not help. They need to show the users something that will make them come to WP and that's not been seen yet. Pureview is nice, but not worth the lack of WhatsApp, Swiftkey (bigram prediction), Google Maps, YouTube and file system access for me. For my sister, no Instagram, bad WhatsApp and bad Facebook. For my mom, lack of banking apps and no Swype-type keyboard killed it. These come from 1-3 weeks I made them use my L920. They went back to Android. However, both of them had great things to say about the camera and my mother especially liked the UI (sister didn't care for it).

    So bright-coloured phones and a good camera are just not sufficient to attract consumers. My Nexus 4 doesn't have a great camera, nor does my sister's S3 Mini or my mom's One V. But these phones do what they want, and clearly what a **** of a lot of other consumers want.

    And apologistic attitudes don't help; yes, WP is great for just a 2-year old OS, but who cares? If they want to play in the same arena as Apple and Android, they need to get their A game on. And do it right now. The market doesn't care if WP is 2 years or 20 years old.
    03-28-2013 09:48 AM
  9. WinFan1's Avatar
    Because they're playing catch-up. The way I perceive it is like Ballmer is the jealous kid, looking at what the cool kids have and going like "i want that too", things like Apple's dominance of the mobile and tablet market and Google's dominance over search and web services. He does not realise that MS has its own core strengths, things like Windows and the Office ecosystem and it is these things that they should be focusing on.

    If at all it is needed for MS to become a player in search/mobile, they need to have something that will take the average consumer (NOT the wpcentral denizen) and absolutely wow him. Getting Instagram or Vine or whatever doesn't do it, that's playing catchup. MS is in a race where the top players are literally several laps ahead and trying to just match will not help. They need to show the users something that will make them come to WP and that's not been seen yet. Pureview is nice, but not worth the lack of WhatsApp, Swiftkey (bigram prediction), Google Maps, YouTube and file system access for me. For my sister, no Instagram, bad WhatsApp and bad Facebook. For my mom, lack of banking apps and no Swype-type keyboard killed it. These come from 1-3 weeks I made them use my L920. They went back to Android. However, both of them had great things to say about the camera and my mother especially liked the UI (sister didn't care for it).

    So bright-coloured phones and a good camera are just not sufficient to attract consumers. My Nexus 4 doesn't have a great camera, nor does my sister's S3 Mini or my mom's One V. But these phones do what they want, and clearly what a **** of a lot of other consumers want.

    And apologistic attitudes don't help; yes, WP is great for just a 2-year old OS, but who cares? If they want to play in the same arena as Apple and Android, they need to get their A game on. And do it right now. The market doesn't care if WP is 2 years or 20 years old.
    ill agree with you to this point
    "Because they're playing catch-up. The way I perceive it is like Ballmer is the jealous kid, looking at what the cool kids have and going like "i want that too", things like Apple's dominance of the mobile and tablet market and Google's dominance over search and web services. He does not realise that MS has its own core strengths, things like Windows and the Office ecosystem and it is these things that they should be focusing on." reason being is that your right, microsoft is playing a game of catch that it is behind about 3 years on, ms could flash money or give awesome incentive to have dev support but they shouldnt have to. developers should be looking to make it a three legged race in the mobile division. Look at the big picture is all im saying.
    03-28-2013 10:30 AM
  10. ag1986's Avatar
    ill agree with you to this point
    "Because they're playing catch-up. The way I perceive it is like Ballmer is the jealous kid, looking at what the cool kids have and going like "i want that too", things like Apple's dominance of the mobile and tablet market and Google's dominance over search and web services. He does not realise that MS has its own core strengths, things like Windows and the Office ecosystem and it is these things that they should be focusing on." reason being is that your right, microsoft is playing a game of catch that it is behind about 3 years on, ms could flash money or give awesome incentive to have dev support but they shouldnt have to. developers should be looking to make it a three legged race in the mobile division. Look at the big picture is all im saying.
    Ah come on, that doesn't make sense. It's a fact that apps are even considered to be a make-or-break things for phones - MS's own history with the Windows PC should make that abundantly clear to them. They really need to get out there and woo the developers, pay them whatever they need. WP & Bing are already generating huge losses, but like Xbox, MS needs to push it with the developers regardless of the cost. This is absolutely a necessity, not an option. Developers' one incentive is money, and they see that there is going to be little to no return (whether via app purchases or advertising revenue) from the costs associated with developing an app for WP. Even if 1% of iOS/Android users pay $1 for a given app, that's big money. And this is not the case with WP. MS needs to incentivise the **** out of the dev world, fly them to Seattle, put them up in hotels, teach them to code for WP and send them back out.

    Furthermore, one area where they can capitalise on is the developing countries. In India for example, the Google Play Store just launched books, movies and devices. The Nexus 7 16GB is available from Google Play for 15,000 INR, which is a reasonable price (still higher than the US price due to taxes etc).
    03-28-2013 11:16 AM
  11. ChMar's Avatar
    Ah come on, that doesn't make sense. It's a fact that apps are even considered to be a make-or-break things for phones - MS's own history with the Windows PC should make that abundantly clear to them. They really need to get out there and woo the developers, pay them whatever they need. WP & Bing are already generating huge losses, but like Xbox, MS needs to push it with the developers regardless of the cost. This is absolutely a necessity, not an option. Developers' one incentive is money, and they see that there is going to be little to no return (whether via app purchases or advertising revenue) from the costs associated with developing an app for WP. Even if 1% of iOS/Android users pay $1 for a given app, that's big money. And this is not the case with WP. MS needs to incentivise the **** out of the dev world, fly them to Seattle, put them up in hotels, teach them to code for WP and send them back out.
    .
    Microsoft should stop paying devs altogether. It's a dead end to pay dev. You must understand that dev only means programmers. When people complain about the lack of apps they don't complain for the lack of apps like flash apps or toss coins apps. They complaint about the lack of apps for the service they use. This means they complain there is no youtube app, no facebook app for their liking no instagram app. Those apps exist only to allow easier access to online services(youtube, facebook, instagram, banks). So MS is not paying devs it's paying the companies owning those services to make apps for wp8. And here lies the mistake and the misconception. Let's take a bank as example. The bank does not hires programmers to work on apps. They hire a 3rd party company to do this. Now this company comes with an offer. And guess what they charge $20,000 for ios $30,000 for android because is more fragmented and $40,000 for wp8 because it's newer. And they throw numbers in those offers to entice the bank to buy their services. It's not MS fault at all that the bank will not choose to pay so much money for a app with so few users. Beside the big companies who also make software(facebook, google maybe instagram) the rest of those online services buy the apps from 3rd party software companies. Microsoft can't do **** as this is not a case where developers do not understand how to code for the wp8 platform. It's only a case of how to make my app and drive users to my online service with least amount of cost.

    So stop considering that there is a dev world out there that only lacks Microsoft money to do wonders because this is not the case
    a5cent likes this.
    03-28-2013 11:32 AM
  12. ag1986's Avatar
    Microsoft should stop paying devs altogether. It's a dead end to pay dev. You must understand that dev only means programmers. When people complain about the lack of apps they don't complain for the lack of apps like flash apps or toss coins apps. They complaint about the lack of apps for the service they use. This means they complain there is no youtube app, no facebook app for their liking no instagram app. Those apps exist only to allow easier access to online services(youtube, facebook, instagram, banks). So MS is not paying devs it's paying the companies owning those services to make apps for wp8. And here lies the mistake and the misconception. Let's take a bank as example. The bank does not hires programmers to work on apps. They hire a 3rd party company to do this. Now this company comes with an offer. And guess what they charge $20,000 for ios $30,000 for android because is more fragmented and $40,000 for wp8 because it's newer. And they throw numbers in those offers to entice the bank to buy their services. It's not MS fault at all that the bank will not choose to pay so much money for a app with so few users. Beside the big companies who also make software(facebook, google maybe instagram) the rest of those online services buy the apps from 3rd party software companies. Microsoft can't do **** as this is not a case where developers do not understand how to code for the wp8 platform. It's only a case of how to make my app and drive users to my online service with least amount of cost.

    So stop considering that there is a dev world out there that only lacks Microsoft money to do wonders because this is not the case
    Then, how would you expect WP8 to go mainstream? Sure, many apps are service-oriented, but not all. For example, Temple Run. WP just got it, and Android/iOS users have the new TR2 already. Then the Oz version of it, same story. I don't think the devs would have turned down $50-$80K from MS to develop a WP8 version. Bank doesn't have WP app? MS should approach the bank and offer to pay for it. ****, the bank is probably an MS customer, they must have something, MS Office at the very least. Offer a 50K discount on their licenses.
    03-28-2013 12:57 PM
  13. ChMar's Avatar
    Then, how would you expect WP8 to go mainstream? Sure, many apps are service-oriented, but not all. For example, Temple Run. WP just got it, and Android/iOS users have the new TR2 already. Then the Oz version of it, same story. I don't think the devs would have turned down $50-$80K from MS to develop a WP8 version. Bank doesn't have WP app? MS should approach the bank and offer to pay for it. ****, the bank is probably an MS customer, they must have something, MS Office at the very least. Offer a 50K discount on their licenses.
    Successful apps they are all service oriented. And we are talking about games when we discuss temple run. games will always sell. But games are not the deal breaker of the platforms apps are. In the future more games will try to be xbox brand and will appear for wp8 as well. Please remind yourself that it takes time to make a piece of software be it game or app. So don't expect to see games pouring from the same company once a month as it is impossible. MS should not approach because if it does so everyone will want money to have their services to wp8. They make them and never support them. Can't bargain with your product to force a bank pay and support an app on your new ecosystem. And what should MS pay? Give them money for them so they could pay the 3rd party developer? Give them money to hire people to do the app and them fire them?

    The situation here has never been seen in the history so far. Cross platform code has always been an issue. Problem is on ios you are the most limited in the choice of compilers and libraries. Then you have the dalvik machine on android which can only truly support java and you also have the NDK. So unless you want to spend $10,000 on monotouch to code in c# for all platforms(again only for big companies who have money not for small developers) there is no way to target so many platforms. There simple are 2 many different platforms: iOS(objective c, some c++) Android(some C++, java), wp8(some c++, .net: c#, vb#, f#, c++ cli), BB10(some C++, some android java code). The only common factor is html5. But you still need to code for specifics of the platform(Widgets and search, contact integration for android) push notifications ios, live tile + push notifications wp8 plus the background functionality. And do you think the 3rd party software companies will advertise the html5 solution for their costumers? Or they will approach with unique price and features for all platforms.

    The only way wp8 can go mainstream is by phone quality, os simplicity and usability and a more devote user base. The kind of user base that pays for it's software and its not just looking for free apps. In my country I know no people who bought android apps. None. My iphone friends did bought some apps at some point in time. And this is the only reason in case of iOS/Android comparison for which the iphone is still the favorite ecosystem to develop from. Just because it's more likely to sell on app store than it is on google play. And let's not talk about add supporting your app. It's total crap. I don't care about adds on web pages when I navigate from my desktop but they are out of place in handheld personal device.

    So MS can't force app situation here. They can only hope that individuals can come with innovative apps and choose their platform because of better development tools. But it may be too late in this era of service-oriented apps.
    03-28-2013 01:20 PM
  14. ag1986's Avatar
    Successful apps they are all service oriented. And we are talking about games when we discuss temple run. games will always sell. But games are not the deal breaker of the platforms apps are. In the future more games will try to be xbox brand and will appear for wp8 as well. Please remind yourself that it takes time to make a piece of software be it game or app. So don't expect to see games pouring from the same company once a month as it is impossible. MS should not approach because if it does so everyone will want money to have their services to wp8. They make them and never support them. Can't bargain with your product to force a bank pay and support an app on your new ecosystem. And what should MS pay? Give them money for them so they could pay the 3rd party developer? Give them money to hire people to do the app and them fire them?

    So MS can't force app situation here. They can only hope that individuals can come with innovative apps and choose their platform because of better development tools. But it may be too late in this era of service-oriented apps.

    Sorry, but I can't agree with you there. Viability of cross-platform coding as well as the throw-money-at-developers model has been adequately demonstrated by RIM with BB10. If they can develop a bleeding compile and/or runtime layer to port android apps, MS can well provide a tool to compile Java into WP8-compatible code. It doesn't have to work well, it just has to work. Especially since most service apps (banks, FB, social media clients) aren't exactly resource hogs. And even more so when MS wrote the book on IDEs (I hate VB and VS in general, but god is it easy to use...) and has great institutional knowledge in compiler design, courtesy of the VS teams.
    03-28-2013 01:39 PM
  15. Ridemyscooter86's Avatar
    about the app quality/ecosystem topic:

    One thing MS is bringing to the table is their unified code base. The idea that you can code one app on windows 8 and translate it to WP, xbox, etc. I don't think MS has completely made this seamless but they are definitely working on it as they stated they are trying to make it even easier to move from modern ui windows 8/rt to windows phone. Once they get this together, then you can essentially make apps for 3 or more separate MS platforms all at once. The good with the ecosystem argument is that windows 8 is growing rapidly so I wouldn't worry too much about it, its a new OS, it will take some time for its library aside from the legacy x86 code, to catch up.

    WP8 will go mainstream by MS sticking with it, putting more money into it and being consistent, the same things they did to make bing and especially xbox grow. If they do this and don't do a half-a**ed job keeping up with it I think it will grow. Microsoft really needs better marketing though...the only windows phone adds I've really seen are for the lumia 920, but not for WP as a whole. Microsoft really needs a better marketing dept which is something they've always been weak at. The surface ads are refreshing but windows 8 is a great example: most people, at least when I sold them tablets, didn't know the difference between windows RT and windows 8. They should have done a better job clarifying it. Theres nothing wrong with windows RT except the price being too high, the problem is a lot of people didn't know their older programs wont run on it.
    03-28-2013 01:42 PM
  16. ChMar's Avatar
    Sorry, but I can't agree with you there. Viability of cross-platform coding as well as the throw-money-at-developers model has been adequately demonstrated by RIM with BB10. If they can develop a bleeding compile and/or runtime layer to port android apps, MS can well provide a tool to compile Java into WP8-compatible code. It doesn't have to work well, it just has to work. Especially since most service apps (banks, FB, social media clients) aren't exactly resource hogs. And even more so when MS wrote the book on IDEs (I hate VB and VS in general, but god is it easy to use...) and has great institutional knowledge in compiler design, courtesy of the VS teams.
    BB10 is not showing viable cross-platform. All their unique os features will not get targeted with this cross-platform. And theor support for android apps is somehow limited. As for throwing money at developer I already explained why this is only a marketing catchphrase. Developers are the programmers. BB is not throwing money at them they pay for those service-oriented companies to make apps for bb. And they don't they just use their android version and not making a push for bb. A tool to convert java to .net means nothing. The UI library is so different that no conversion can be done.

    When marketing and profit in the app-ecosystem will reach a saturation point then we will see wp8 shinning because of the IDE and the libraries available. The big secret of MS here is their azure platform. The possibility to have your web site, back-end services, background workers, push notifications and provide from there support for front end on all mobile and desktop solutions is great. As soon as people realize that this cloud solution saves them money those service-oriented business will start using more of MS tools and target the wp8 in their products.

    Marketing wise MS is in a difficult spot to market WP. They don't make the devices and they can't sell you a dvd or let you download their os on your phone. So they cant advertise their os. Imagine the confusion if you advertise an os that can't be bought and people have to choose from nokia or htc. You have not seen google doing adds for android for the same reason(coupled with the fact that not all android devices support google products).
    a5cent likes this.
    03-28-2013 02:32 PM
  17. AngryNil's Avatar
    Call me when Google gets so bad the USA DoJ actually steps in and forces the company to restructure its infrastructure due to antitrust like MS :rolleyes:
    Call me when the USA DoJ is the shining standard of justice :rolleyes:
    03-30-2013 08:17 AM
  18. omniusovermind's Avatar
    Call me when the USA DoJ is the shining standard of justice :rolleyes:
    That we live in a corrupt world is new to you? I wish i could walk around with those starry eyed lofty ideals too. The premise behind this thread is a joke. I'm actually disappointed in myself for participating in a debate about which corrupt giant corporation is less corrupt.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    03-30-2013 08:34 PM
  19. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Call me when the USA DoJ is the shining standard of justice :rolleyes:
    Call me when we have another agency. Like it or not, Eric Holder is the #1 bad-*** and there ain't no other game in town.
    03-30-2013 08:55 PM
  20. AaHaa's Avatar
    The premise behind this thread is a joke. I'm actually disappointed in myself for participating in a debate about which corrupt giant corporation is less corrupt.
    Well, I meant for the premise of this thread to be about ways Microsoft can top Google, but I like this discussion as well :P Carry on.
    03-31-2013 08:32 AM
  21. squire777's Avatar
    My Nexus 4 doesn't have a great camera, nor does my sister's S3 Mini or my mom's One V. But these phones do what they want, and clearly what a **** of a lot of other consumers want.

    Suddenly your schtick on this board make sense.
    Ordeith likes this.
    03-31-2013 11:47 AM
  22. Oliver Newell's Avatar
    Apple and Microsoft are closer than people think. That doesn't mean to say I like Apple, well I like some of their products, I just don't like them as company and had a passionate hatred for Steve Jobs, but Apple and Microsoft share the same unease, or wariness for google. Microsoft and Apple have shares in each other so I could imagine that if push came to shove Apple and MS would side with each other (which they have done already). Succeeding in a business is great but google are growing too big too fast and are abusing their market share and power. They will collapse, they wont rule the world like people think they will because at the end of the day google are not forcing anyone to buy their products or use their services. Microsoft are now on the up and are becoming very competitive while maintaining their trusty old values and ways of doing things. Im only just turning 17 and I have been using MS products and services growing up and still are and its like an old friend using a windows computer or sending an email via outlook (despite the fact both are now very different from what they used to be). Much love for MS, thy wont let google take over completely without a fight.
    04-01-2013 06:03 PM
  23. OzRob's Avatar
    Im only just turning 17 and I have been using MS products and services growing up and still are and its like an old friend using a windows computer or sending an email via outlook (despite the fact both are now very different from what they used to be). Much love for MS, thy wont let google take over completely without a fight.
    That's so sweet...and naive. I'm 53 and remember when Microsoft was the evil Satan with its fingers in everyone's pockets and governments around the world seeking to limit its seemingly boundless powers. I remember when Google was the white knight that saved us from the tyranny of having to pay for an email account and was considered really 'cool' because it gave us all this great tech for free.

    Microsoft, Google, Apple - they are all for-profit companies beholden to their shareholders. They are not beloved members of our family nor generous benefactors with our best interests at heart. Nor are they inherently evil. They all exist in a capitalist economy and their main aim is to separate us from as much of our money as possible. If that requires them to be nice, they will be nice. If it requires them to screw us, they will screw us. Essentially they are as good and as bad as each other, but they are in different market positions and phases of growth and expansion. Therefore they are each using different tactics at the moment to get the upper hand. But as the market and there positions change, so will their tactics. So best not to get too attached.
    tgp and AngryNil like this.
    04-02-2013 12:35 AM
  24. ChMar's Avatar
    That's so sweet...and naive. I'm 53 and remember when Microsoft was the evil Satan with its fingers in everyone's pockets and governments around the world seeking to limit its seemingly boundless powers. I remember when Google was the white knight that saved us from the tyranny of having to pay for an email account and was considered really 'cool' because it gave us all this great tech for free.
    I agree with your stance on the old days :). But google was not the first one to give email for free. Hotmail and yahoo were free long before google made gmail
    04-02-2013 12:53 AM
  25. dba415's Avatar
    I agree with your stance on the old days :). But google was not the first one to give email for free. Hotmail and yahoo were free long before google made gmail
    GMail was the first one to actually give people legitimate storage space. I remember when Yahoo had ridiculously small storage space for free accounts (don't remember the amount) but Gmail owned Yahoo and Hotmail in that department. It was the sole reason people moved to Gmail, including myself.
    inferno434 likes this.
    04-02-2013 12:56 AM
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