09-28-2013 08:14 PM
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  1. Reflexx's Avatar
    Oh, another person claiming I was lying! Although you also call me a friend so maybe there is hope yet.

    As you may have read, I have used Microsoft computers as a user and a developer for a very long time. I even wrote drivers for
    Windows (maybe you used one of them). I suspect I know more about the internal workings of operating systems including Windows than the average person in this forum. Operating systems are quite interesting. What's your view of the Windows NT micro kernel architecture (as used in Windows Phone 8)? Superior to the monolithic approach of Linux (as used in Android)? Has the micro kernel architecture contributed to the slow take up of Windows Phone?

    I do not hang around Android or Apple forums. I doubt I have viruses on my work PC as it has full and up to date anti virus software courtesy of the IT department.
    What did any of that have to do with the Windows name being a negative?
    09-27-2013 03:02 PM
  2. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    If your PC is taking that long to boot up, then your IT department needs to look at how they are loading images when setting up computers. Or just how they are connecting to the domain. Or what is the hardware of the computer. That is not a normal or acceptable time. I've been supporting enterprises, networks and domains for almost 20 years and that is not an experience of windows unless they have pooched the install or have specialized scripts running. One company I contract to has every OS from Win2k (due to some ancient testing equipment) through XP, Vista, Windows 7 and a couple of Windows 8 computers. Even the 2K computers take no longer than 2-3 minutes. I'd say it's more an objective experience of who's running your network.
    You should contract your services to my company. I have the worst W7 image ever. I'm pretty sure it's stuffed. They're unfortunately using Dells and IBM security systems. My computer is slow and unstable, something a W7 machine shouldn't be. I think think their IT systems are antiquated.
    09-27-2013 04:03 PM
  3. anony_mouse's Avatar
    What did any of that have to do with the Windows name being a negative?
    I think we've moved on from that, unless you have something to add. I agreed that everyone in the world thinks Windows is great. Once we actually got round to discussing it, no one liked my idea of changing the name of Windows Phone, despite my literary efforts. So I'm thinking of other factors that might help Windows Phone to gain market share (as per the title of the thread). Perhaps you have some ideas?

    Back to the operating systems theory perspective... Does anyone have a view on the kernel architecture of Windows NT and it's relevance to Windows market share? Personally I think it is relevant, as NT is a hugely more solid basis to build on than WinCE as used in WP7. I don't have to tell you, I'm sure, that WP8 uses NT. The increased reliability alone is a major improvement and more than makes up for any possible reduction in performance relative to WinCE (which is anyway a debatable point on a modern processor). In fact, I would suggest Microsoft should push this to its logical conclusion and go for a single, modular code base for all the Windows platforms. Now, you might ask why a user should care about this. Well, it will reduce costs in the long run, which should make Windows Phone cheaper. It will enable all kinds of variants to be created to fill whatever new device types we see in the future, while retaining deep compatibility with applications. And it will allow
    Microsoft to really have a unified platform across all device types. The possibilities are endless.
    It's interesting to compare this to other platforms. Both Android and iOS are also based in 'PC' operating systems but their runtime environments are perhaps less suited to platforms larger than a tablet - do you think?
    (I realise this is not compatible with my suggestion to build Windows Phone on top of the Android, as a skin, but I already dropped that idea as no one liked it and whatever its advantages, it's not going to happen.)
    09-27-2013 04:18 PM
  4. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Here's a point that must cause a lot of problems for Windows Phone in the market... people who like windows are often disappointed by Windows Phone because it doesn't really have a anything to do with windows. A totally different experience. Microsoft should make Windows Phone more like windows. Windows fans will then love it and tell all their friends.
    Don't underestimate the number of people who like windows. The market penetration of windows is huge, far larger than even Android. I don't have any statistics to hand, so you will have to judge this one for yourself, but I would guess that over 90% of people have access to at least one window.
    09-28-2013 01:51 AM
  5. teckris's Avatar
    Here's a point that must cause a lot of problems for Windows Phone in the market... people who like windows are often disappointed by Windows Phone because it doesn't really have a anything to do with windows. A totally different experience. Microsoft should make Windows Phone more like windows. Windows fans will then love it and tell all their friends.
    Don't underestimate the number of people who like windows. The market penetration of windows is huge, far larger than even Android. I don't have any statistics to hand, so you will have to judge this one for yourself, but I would guess that over 90% of people have access to at least one window.
    MS please listen to this One... bring the Windows to WP...!! close buttons and a top bar with name of application.. start menu... what else??
    09-28-2013 02:45 AM
  6. Reflexx's Avatar
    Here's a point that must cause a lot of problems for Windows Phone in the market... people who like windows are often disappointed by Windows Phone because it doesn't really have a anything to do with windows. A totally different experience. Microsoft should make Windows Phone more like windows. Windows fans will then love it and tell all their friends.
    Don't underestimate the number of people who like windows. The market penetration of windows is huge, far larger than even Android. I don't have any statistics to hand, so you will have to judge this one for yourself, but I would guess that over 90% of people have access to at least one window.
    Keep in mind that there is a new paradigm in interaction with computers.

    With touch gaining popularity, the old way of interacting with PCs will be going away for consumers. It's like the command line. Consumers dont use it.

    Windows itself is changing. Windows is meeting Windows Phone halfway. The UI is going to stay tile based.

    For developers, the unification of the trunk will make it much easier to create applications that run on a variety of devices.

    Eventually Windows RT and Windows Phone wwillbe the same thing, just with a different skin.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    09-28-2013 12:11 PM
  7. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Here's a point that must cause a lot of problems for Windows Phone in the market... people who like windows are often disappointed by Windows Phone because it doesn't really have a anything to do with windows. A totally different experience. Microsoft should make Windows Phone more like windows. Windows fans will then love it and tell all their friends.
    Don't underestimate the number of people who like windows. The market penetration of windows is huge, far larger than even Android. I don't have any statistics to hand, so you will have to judge this one for yourself, but I would guess that over 90% of people have access to at least one window.
    You're looking at it the wrong way.

    If you saw a picture of WP8 WRT and W8 (on the metro interface) you'll notice one thing that's very common about them.... they all look the same.

    Now I'm not going to disagree with the fact that WP8 needs to have more functionality and this will hopefully come in WP8.1. However it won't become Windows because Windows is becoming more like WP.

    I'm taking a stab at this as there's no evidence to my thoughts here but this what I think is going to happen.

    I believe eventually there won't be a desktop on a Windows PC or I should say there will be one but it won't be necessary to access it as everything you need to do will be in the Metro interface.

    I also see this as advantageous for IT administration as it would make it easier to limit people's functions. At least this is how I see it.

    Why didn't MS do this with W8? Simple, they were trying to make it a transition from one state to the other. However it hasn't worked and we've seen with the hysterics with the simple removal of the Start button that people simply aren't ready for it and change is hard for a lot of people. I personally hated the Start button.

    So this is how I see things. WP will continue to improve. Windows RT will become more tablet based and will probably drop the desktop completely. Windows PC will become a Metro interface system only but still have access to a desktop when necessary (rarely). So in essence you'll have three systems acting very similar.

    I believe this is the direction their heading. I'm looking forward to it. I think they have some bugs to iron out and I think they have some other bits to straighten out but I think this is what we're going to see in the future. The days of Windows used in desktop environment I think will be over.

    On another note I personally think they should have just jumped right into this system. The howls would have been very loud but I think people would have been more accepting and all the noise surrounding the 'jarring' experience of W8 and W8.1 with regards to desktop/metro transition wouldn't be mentioned as it wouldn't exist.
    09-28-2013 01:13 PM
  8. Ek-Balam's Avatar
    Keep in mind that there is a new paradigm in interaction with computers.

    With touch gaining popularity, the old way of interacting with PCs will be going away for consumers. It's like the command line. Consumers dont use it.

    Windows itself is changing. Windows is meeting Windows Phone halfway. The UI is going to stay tile based.

    For developers, the unification of the trunk will make it much easier to create applications that run on a variety of devices.

    Eventually Windows RT and Windows Phone wwillbe the same thing, just with a different skin.
    Question / Idea......

    Wouldn't it be easier for MS to re-architect the Surface RT hardware to dump the nVIDIA Tegra and adopt a Intel / AMD Atom type x86 CISC proc.? Power dissipation and graphics performance is becoming pretty darn close between to two lately. They would have a built in app base and I would think it would be a lot easier for developers to port / scale Win 8.1 apps to the RT architecture...
    09-28-2013 01:53 PM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    Wouldn't it be easier for MS to re-architect the Surface RT hardware to dump the nVIDIA Tegra and adopt a Intel / AMD Atom type x86 CISC proc.? Power dissipation and graphics performance is becoming pretty darn close between to two lately. They would have a built in app base and I would think it would be a lot easier for developers to port / scale Win 8.1 apps to the RT architecture...
    No. The Windows kernel is ported to ARM, and with that, the matter of drivers is the only other issue left to worry about. For all but a handful of engineers at MS, it is completely irrelevant on which processor architecture the OS runs. For app developers, in terms of how they write software, there is really no difference at all.

    You also need to realize that the difference between Windows RT and Windows is primarily grounded in marketing. Both are basically the same OS. The only real difference is that MS doesn't allow the installation of desktop software on Windows RT (only MS can do that, e.g. Office). That is a miniscule difference considering that most people view these as two distinct operating systems. My point is that developers don't need to port anything between the two, because they are basically one and the same.

    If you want to get a traditional desktop app running in the metro environment, well, that will necessitate a porting effort, but that isn't related to the operating systems themselves. In that scenario, developers are porting software between two different runtime environments, both of which are supported by both OS' (again, with RT not allowing the installation of desktop software).
    Last edited by a5cent; 09-28-2013 at 07:54 PM. Reason: spelling
    Reflexx and Ek-Balam like this.
    09-28-2013 07:07 PM
  10. Ek-Balam's Avatar
    No. The Windows kernel is ported to ARM, and with that, the matter of drivers is the only other issue left to worry about. For all but a handful of engineers at MS, it is completely irrelevant on which processor architecture the OS runs. For app developers, in terms of how they write software, there is really no difference at all.

    You also need to realize that the difference between Windows RT and Windows is primarily grounded in marketing. Both are basically the same OS. The only real difference is that MS doesn't allow the installation of desktop software on Windows RT (only MS can do that, e.g. Office). That is a miniscule difference considering that most people view these as two distinct operating systems. My point is that developers don't need to port anything between the two, because they are basically one and the same.

    If you want to get a traditional desktop app running in the metro environment, well, that will necessitate a porting effort, but that isn't related to the operating systems themselves. In that scenario, developers are porting software between two different runtime environments, both of which are supported by both OS' (again, with RT not allowing the installation of desktop software).
    Thanks for the detailed reply and education! This has broadened my understanding....
    a5cent likes this.
    09-28-2013 08:14 PM
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