10-10-2013 09:57 AM
45 12
tools
  1. marcomura's Avatar
    I believe that here the majority of you use a pc in a so limited way that you cannot even understand what a computer is capable of. And because of this, you think that Windows RT is the future for everyone.
    You are not a computer users, you are a tablet users.
    People who really need a computer need the desktop too... you may not understand why, but it is so. Deal with it.
    Cleavitt76 and sueha like this.
    09-28-2013 05:47 AM
  2. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    I believe that here the majority of you use a pc in a so limited way that you cannot even understand what a computer is capable of. And because of this, you think that Windows RT is the future for everyone.
    You are not a computer users, you are a tablet users.
    People who really need a computer need the desktop too... you may not understand why, but it is so. Deal with it.
    I totally agree and I have said the same thing many times before, but some people just don't get it. Like you, I wonder what some of these people do with their computers or if they are aware that many people actually do complex work on computers. I like Modern UI and Windows 8 quite a bit, but as a desktop replacement technology it makes zero sense.

    You can add toolbars, menus and build a mouse/keyboard optimized app in metro. It doesn't make sense now because the market share of Windows 8 is small and traditional desktop is in 95% of the PCs, but in a couple of years this will happen. Probably Microsoft will find a solution to run legacy apps as metro apps.
    It doesn't make sense ever. I think a lot of people are confused about what Windows RT and Modern UI is all about. They are simply different tools for a new and different way of using computers (tablets and touch with a focus on content consumption). However, "new and different" doesn't mean it replaces all other existing forms of computer use. The multi-window desktop environment is here to stay. Lots of people (including workers at Microsoft that write the OS) need to be able to resize windows, overlap windows, fit a lot of data/content on their screen(s) at the same time, and control those things very precisely. The desktop and traditional Windows program design language handles all of that very well, but Modern UI is not conducive to any of that. In fact, it is designed for the opposite use case which is to create lightweight, simple, touch friendly apps.

    The desktop and Modern UI are almost total opposites and that is because their primary goals are at odds with each other. "Touch friendly" generally means big fonts, big buttons, minimal clutter (i.e. information). "Getting work done" usually means lots of information and programs on screen at once which requires smaller fonts/buttons/controls. Those goals are what drive traditional desktop vs Modern UI design. This is the reason apple has iOS apps and OSX apps. It also the reason Windows 8 has "split personalities" as some people have called it. Modern UI is intended to complement the desktop not replace it.

    I have no doubt that the lines between desktop and tablet apps will blur over time, but recreating copies of all the existing Windows desktop apps using inappropriate design tools and APIs just so they can be "Modern" is not what Microsoft has in mind.
    09-28-2013 07:57 AM
  3. juanitoriv's Avatar
    I couldn't use AutoCAD in a metro-type touch environment, unless I had a digitizing pen, but would still need full keyboard, and a mouse, or old school digitizer, would serve so much better. This is why MS Office is run in desktop. More work, smaller icons. Not good for touch, unless maybe you have a 35" monitor..

    Just saying..

    True, the majority of computing will go to touch, but........... Definitely, definitely not all.
    Cleavitt76 likes this.
    09-28-2013 10:49 AM
  4. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    I couldn't use AutoCAD in a metro-type touch environment, unless I had a digitizing pen, but would still need full keyboard, and a mouse, or old school digitizer, would serve so much better. This is why MS Office is run in desktop. More work, smaller icons. Not good for touch, unless maybe you have a 35" monitor..

    Just saying..

    True, the majority of computing will go to touch, but........... Definitely, definitely not all.
    You can use a keyboard and mouse with metro apps. Also, Office isn't in the Modern UI because ... they haven't finished porting it yet. It's happening next year, according to all sources.
    09-28-2013 11:08 AM
  5. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    You can use a keyboard and mouse with metro apps.
    We are all aware of that. What you are missing is that the programming framework, limited APIs, developer tools, and the Modern UI design language itself is specifically designed for creating relatively simple, minimalist, touch friendly apps. From a developer perspective, MS actually took their existing development technology (Visual Studio, .Net Framework, APIs, etc.) and stripped out a bunch of stuff to create the technology behind Modern UI apps. MS does not intend for developers to create complex data intensive programs like CAD, Programming tools, databases, Photoshop, etc with Modern UI technology (at least not the desktop equivalent of those programs). If they did, they would have just added different UI design templates onto the existing traditional development tools (which are far more powerful) instead of creating a whole new stripped down branch of the same technology (which is intentionally far more limited).

    Touch simply isn't an appropriate human interface for complex programs in the same way that keyboard/mouse is not ideal for mobile/content consumption. Until a new human interface (telepathy?) to computers is invented there will continue to be a need for applications that are optimized for one or the other.

    Also, Office isn't in the Modern UI because ... they haven't finished porting it yet. It's happening next year, according to all sources.
    When they finish porting it, I suspect it will not replace the existing desktop office suite and it will probably not include many of the more advanced features found in the desktop version. It will probably sit somewhere between the desktop and smart phone versions of office in terms of capabilities (closer to desktop though).
    09-28-2013 12:15 PM
  6. juanitoriv's Avatar
    You took the words out of my mouth and added onto them. I said tomatoes are good, you said tomatoes, while good, are not vegetables, but technically fruit.. Thank you.. 8)
    09-28-2013 12:26 PM
  7. Kellzea's Avatar
    They are fruit. Berries in fact. So are bananas.

    People call tomatoes veg because... Well because they are ignorant i suppose. But fruit, berry, vegetable etc, all have proper scientific meanings. Its not upto personal clarification. Its fact.

    Tomatoes are berries.
    09-28-2013 12:30 PM
  8. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    We are all aware of that. What you are missing is that the programming framework, limited APIs, developer tools, and the Modern UI design language itself is specifically designed for creating relatively simple, minimalist, touch friendly apps. From a developer perspective, MS actually took their existing development technology (Visual Studio, .Net Framework, APIs, etc.) and stripped out a bunch of stuff to create the technology behind Modern UI apps. MS does not intend for developers to create complex data intensive programs like CAD, Programming tools, databases, Photoshop, etc with Modern UI technology (at least not the desktop equivalent of those programs). If they did, they would have just added different UI design templates onto the existing traditional development tools (which are far more powerful) instead of creating a whole new stripped down branch of the same technology (which is intentionally far more limited).

    Touch simply isn't an appropriate human interface for complex programs in the same way that keyboard/mouse is not ideal for mobile/content consumption. Until a new human interface (telepathy?) to computers is invented there will continue to be a need for applications that are optimized for one or the other.



    When they finish porting it, I suspect it will not replace the existing desktop office suite and it will probably not include many of the more advanced features found in the desktop version. It will probably sit somewhere between the desktop and smart phone versions of office in terms of capabilities (closer to desktop though).
    All of that should have an asterisk with the word yet next to it. If you think that WinRT isn't going to evolve into being capable of doing those very things, then I think you're mistaken.
    09-28-2013 12:46 PM
  9. juanitoriv's Avatar
    All berries are fruit, but not all fruits are berries.

    Like all thumbs are finger, but not all fingers are thumbs.. But what are toes?? (From 'The Big Bang Theory')
    aximtreo likes this.
    09-28-2013 12:46 PM
  10. juanitoriv's Avatar
    All of that should have an asterisk with the word yet next to it. If you think that WinRT isn't going to evolve into being capable of doing those very things, then I think you're mistaken.
    While I would like to agree with you, the point is about touch interface/metro apps vs. Full desktop programs.. Metro would possibly allow for such, but for now and, at the very least, the near future, power computing will continue via desktop.. IMO
    09-28-2013 12:49 PM
  11. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    While I would like to agree with you, the point is about touch interface/metro apps vs. Full desktop programs.. Metro would possibly allow for such, but for now and, at the very least, the near future, power computing will continue via desktop.. IMO
    I have to agree that it is probably not going to be coming in the next year or two. I suspect that we'll be on Windows 9 and the Surface 6 before we end up seeing that become true.
    09-28-2013 01:02 PM
  12. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I've read the posts and there's one industry where you will NOT see the traditional desktop being abandoned: healthcare. I'm involved with hospitals and acute care centers everyday and I'm surprised at how the majority run Windows 2000 programs. Forget the medical programs for a second. The Medical Gas systems I work with are computerized and the alarm systems need programming and synchronizing with the master alarm panels. To change any protocol requires approval and a revision to the code by the NFPA. If you think Congress is slow....

    I have yet to see an iPad in use at hospitals other than by administrators. Nurses still carry PDAs for God's sake. If MS can make the Surface Pro in a smaller form factor I'm sure it will make a big dent in this sector. If the RT can't run legacy apps natively or through an emulator it will see as much action as the iPad, which is to say non-existent. Phones, forget it. MRIs, CT rooms and lead-lined walls make reception a crapshoot at best.
    09-28-2013 01:20 PM
  13. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    All of that should have an asterisk with the word yet next to it. If you think that WinRT isn't going to evolve into being capable of doing those very things, then I think you're mistaken.
    I don't think that WinRT will ever evolve into those things. My logic for that belief is very simple. If MS were to expand upon WinRT until it had the capabilities of the desktop and the complex APIs/subsystems used by desktop programs, they would have just recreated Windows from the ground up. In the end, Windows and WinRT would be the same product, but MS would have taken the least efficient approach to get there. I can't imagine a bigger waste of time. If this was the end game, MS would just compile a version of Windows full for ARM which would be much easier than building up WinRT.

    WinRT is meant to be a lightweight version of Windows to run on relatively weak (i.e. very power efficient) hardware. At the moment that is ARM, but the CPU architecture is actually irrelevant. The limits of WinRT are by design for the purpose of simplicity and being able to run without lag on the lowest end hardware available at any given time. The full version of Windows, with all of its capabilities will never be able to run as smoothly as simple OSs like Android or iOS on the same mobile hardware. It will always need more CPU power, memory, and storage space because it is so much more complex. If they expand WinRT to make it as capable and complex as Windows then MS will have two OSs that do the same thing and no lightweight OS for tablets.

    If someday in the distant future we reach a point where even the smallest devices available have the power to run a fully capable OS without compromises, MS will standardize on the OS with decades of evolutionary updates, documentation, and third party support, not the "light version" of the OS that needs 90% of the functionality of a full OS added back in.
    09-28-2013 01:54 PM
  14. jedpatrickdatu's Avatar
    Microsoft should make 2 separate UIs - one for full desktop and the other for touchscreen ARM devices. The main problem with RT is that it looks like full Windows 8, yet they are completely different inside, thereby confusing customers. RT is much closer to Windows Phone, so it's a wise move to unify these two together and give them a similar UI, while Windows 8 gets a separate UI so users can easily distinguish which OS can run desktop apps and which one can only do Metro apps.
    10-05-2013 02:31 AM
  15. dkediger's Avatar
    At some point, the Desktop as we know it now, will go away/evolve. I don't think that has to mean touch-only Modern UI apps - shortcuts/icons on the Start Page surface will likely transparently launch a non-Modern UI app into whatever it needs, and then return to the Start Page rather than the traditional desktop. That's really all that needs to happen from the UI perspective. As I've mentioned before - Like Parallels on the Mac in Coalesce mode - an app from a virtual Windows machines launches and runs directly within Mac's Launcher UI - no launching into the full Windows VM first or dealing with Windows common dialog controls.
    10-05-2013 03:22 PM
  16. AR2186's Avatar
    What are the chances WP8.1 is Windows RT with the WP Shell/GUI, the phone components and an app translator for WP7/8 apps? This way they can unify the store, allow all WP apps to run on W8.1/RT8.1, have Windows Phone run on ARM or Intel chipsets (since RT is full W8 compiled for ARM) and finally not have to write apps for each platform (Cortana, Bing Apps, etc). WP8.1 would essentially use WinRT but understand WinPRT and WinXRT).

    From a timing perspective, this makes the most sense to me, as Windows 8.1 GDR1 will supposedly unify the store and bring Cortana. This also would explain why they seem to have delayed the WP GDRs a few months and back ported a few of the features we were expecting for WP8.1 to GDR3
    10-05-2013 03:49 PM
  17. Grimlock's Avatar
    I'm losing faith in Microsoft doing this in a timely manner- I wouldn't be surprised in the least if OSX and iOS are unified before Windows.
    10-09-2013 09:05 PM
  18. WanderingTraveler's Avatar
    I'm losing faith in Microsoft doing this in a timely manner- I wouldn't be surprised in the least if OSX and iOS are unified before Windows.
    I don't think that'll happen.

    Remember the fact that it takes a lot of time and effort to merge two different platforms for coding (WinPRT and WinRT)

    Plus, Apple keeps the Tablet/Phone ecosystem different from the PC Ecosystem. It's not going to change anytime soon.
    10-09-2013 09:17 PM
  19. jedpatrickdatu's Avatar
    There are already reports that Windows Phone 8.1 will allow support for 10-inch screens. This might be the first step in unifying WP and RT. I know it seems like Microsoft isn't doing anything about WP, but they recently adapted the "shut up and ship" policy, where they avoid making announcements too soon.
    10-10-2013 12:11 AM
  20. fatclue_98's Avatar
    At some point, the Desktop as we know it now, will go away/evolve. I don't think that has to mean touch-only Modern UI apps - shortcuts/icons on the Start Page surface will likely transparently launch a non-Modern UI app into whatever it needs, and then return to the Start Page rather than the traditional desktop. That's really all that needs to happen from the UI perspective. As I've mentioned before - Like Parallels on the Mac in Coalesce mode - an app from a virtual Windows machines launches and runs directly within Mac's Launcher UI - no launching into the full Windows VM first or dealing with Windows common dialog controls.
    Be it Windows or Mac, the desktop is not going anywhere. There are programs that simply cannot run on ARM architecture, the military is not going to a mobile OS anytime soon, the country's infrastructure, etc. We "civilians" are just a small part of the computing world. Anybody who thinks that Netflix and Facebook is all that computers do is simply delusional. Forums like this one exist for the benefit of a small but vocal group who enjoy their computing devices. Those who sit behind a desk couldn't give a hairy rat's a$$ about touch interface or whether their tablet can coexist with their phone. They are paid to do a job with the equipment their employer provides.
    10-10-2013 09:57 AM
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