11-09-2013 07:44 AM
91 1234
tools
  1. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    My guess is that Google is going to use the ads (all over the phone) to make profit. Am I right?

    Anyway, some of you are right. While other phones price's do drop, Nexus's line MERELY do.

    I'm still waiting for a mix between 925/920 and 1020. Please Microsoft, fulfill my dreams this summer :)
    Aside from camera, please tell me how any of those phones are better than the Nexus 5. The Nexus 5 has fairly top of the line specs. :\
    11-02-2013 04:38 PM
  2. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Tell that to people who won't get Android 4.4. That's really helping fragmentation isn't it /s
    I think the idea is that they're almost to the point where every application is in the store. The launcher is in the store, the gmail application is, calendar is, SMS is because of hangouts integration, and the list continues. Once they get everything in the store, it won't matter what version you're on for a long time. They'll just send you updates for the launcher or dialer or whatever else they want to tweak. That's how Google will fight fragmentation.
    11-02-2013 04:41 PM
  3. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    OP is comparing Linux to Windows and Android to Windows and Tesco to Marks&Spencers.

    The difference is quality. No doubt Android has all the power user features but it is a free OS. Windows on the other hand is an OS you pay fee for. That itself raises the prices. For Google as many have rightly pointed it is affordable to offer phones at silly rates as their advertising revenue goes miles ahead as soon as you have a Google account to log in to that device to use almost everything. No, don't tell me you don't need a Google account because then it won't be a smartphone thing to do.

    You cannot compare these two. Try and compare a Note 3 with Nokia's phablet maybe?
    11-02-2013 06:01 PM
  4. z33dev33l's Avatar
    Aside from camera, please tell me how any of those phones are better than the Nexus 5. The Nexus 5 has fairly top of the line specs. :\
    Easy, they run windows phone. Put a lambo engine in a jumbo jet and tell me how it goes. Put a hemi in something optimized for it and you're gonna do a lot better.
    11-02-2013 06:08 PM
  5. scottcraft's Avatar
    Won't happen. At the point Google is with Android, there is only so much optimization they can do. They are in the same predicament Microsoft is in with Windows. Any of the big and very worthwhile things you could change to make it run better on low-end hardware, would break compatibility. That isn't an option. These types of engineering decisions need to be factored in at the get-go. For Android, that ship has sailed. That is precisely why Android has been relying almost exclusively on the bigger-faster-better hardware approach. It's really the only viable approach they have. High-end smartphone hardware is now at the point where it can cover up OS inefficiencies. In a few more years, low-end hardware will also reach that point, but the inefficiencies won't be gone... they'll just be out of sight.
    So you don't think 4.4 will run decent on devices with half a gig of ram? By optimization I meant Google intends to improve memory management and do all sorts of things I don't understand. Seems like I saw a part where there will be tools for app developers to help make their apps more efficient with memory. At this point I won't put it past Google to make android run well on lower hardware. That's really the only area where Android isn't way ahead of everyone.
    11-02-2013 07:37 PM
  6. tgp's Avatar
    Tell that to people who won't get Android 4.4. That's really helping fragmentation isn't it /s
    It won't help today obviously, but consider KitKat the starting point. If reducing fragmentation is indeed their goal, it will be from here on out.
    11-02-2013 07:42 PM
  7. AngryNil's Avatar
    Market share is growing at a steady rate, and the awareness is becoming more broad. Trying to keep up with the "times" is a losing race as far as specs go. I think what they're doing now, making niche devices for those that crave those things like the 1020, is the best route
    I don't think there is any right or wrong answer here. Perhaps you see the current trajectory as satisfactory, but I do not, and I'd bet neither does Microsoft. It's been three years and Windows Phone is still not at 4% market share globally. Even if Microsoft's future is to step away from the OEM model and become a fully vertically integrated company, it will want more than 4% market share on the low-end. Yes, OS X has little market share and still manages to be a successful product and ecosystem, but that is because it has the high-end.

    Lol, everyone is still saying that Microsoft is purchasing Nokia. No they are not! They are simply buying the devices sector from Nokia. Nokia will not be owned by Microsoft and it will continue to exist as it's own company providing hardware for mobile phone networks and also continue it's amazing HERE services.
    That's just arguing over semantics. The Nokia that everyone knows and cares about creates smartphones, and that is being purchased by Microsoft.

    The L520 is well suited for chasing market share. The same will be true of its successor (whatever comes after the 525). That is what the cheap devices are for. The rest of the MS/Nokia line up should focus on other goals. I agree that MS/Nokia must quickly upgrade their mid range to better compete with the new Nexus, but undercutting them and attempting to compete on price in the mid-range won't solve anything. Using high-end devices to go after market share would be even worse, as that will quickly bring share holders down on MS/Nokia with a vengeance.

    I think MS'/Nokia's current marketing mix and product positioning is fine. That's not the problem. The problems are still the same as they've always been... an under featured OS, lack of developer support, and MS' continuing failure to leverage their other franchises and tie them all together into a single, integrated, simple and compelling ecosystem.
    The 520 is rock-bottom as far as I'm concerned; I think it's dangerous to place so much of your growth on one specific device in one price bracket, especially with the news that Google is investing in going further downstream with Android 4.4. I definitely don't suggest Nokia to undercut the Nexus with the 1520 or anything, but I think they need compelling devices at other price points where you can just say "this is great value" like with the 520. What we've seen is the 620 fail to offer much over the 520, the 720 being a premium-priced, mid-range device with middling specs, and no one knows where the heck the 820 was supposed to fit in. So I think we meet halfway there – their mid-range needs some serious work.

    Maybe their flagships can stay at similar prices to the competition, though I still think they should be negotiating for on-contract price drops like they did with the Lumia 900 – the exclusivity should be worth something.

    The difference is quality. No doubt Android has all the power user features but it is a free OS. Windows on the other hand is an OS you pay fee for. That itself raises the prices. For Google as many have rightly pointed it is affordable to offer phones at silly rates as their advertising revenue goes miles ahead as soon as you have a Google account to log in to that device to use almost everything.
    You state the difference is quality, but where's the case for it? The fact is that Windows Phone is a long way away from Android in functionality, while OS X and Windows are much closer. Even iOS 7 brings a tonne of changes for developers to further strengthen its ecosystem advantage, while Windows Phone developers are still asking for access to videos in the camera roll. And I think most consumers will give the finger to "quality" if it means:

    • First party apps that have sat around doing nothing. You've probably heard all the complaints about Calendar and Email already. Maps has no turn-by-turn navigation, and if you go the Nokia route, it's annoyingly separated into two apps and Drive still doesn't have traffic information. Messaging only integrates with Facebook (who owns Skype again?) and that's been half-broken for more than a year now.The Office apps have frustrating UIs and limitations. There's still no predictive dialing for the phone. Photos – ergh, don't get me started. Camera & IE have subpar UIs.
    • Missed opportunities. Integration with People / Messaging / Photos. Mobile XBL. Hubs.
    • Developer restrictions. It's just depressing to see users posting questions on this forum or elsewhere each day, wondering whether the platform can do this or that, then knowing the answer is "Microsoft isn't doing it, and doesn't allow developers to do it".
    11-03-2013 01:34 AM
  8. cckgz4's Avatar
    I don't think there is any right or wrong answer here. Perhaps you see the current trajectory as satisfactory, but I do not, and I'd bet neither does Microsoft. It's been three years and Windows Phone is still not at 4% market share globally. Even if Microsoft's future is to step away from the OEM model and become a fully vertically integrated company, it will want more than 4% market share on the low-end. Yes, OS X has little market share and still manages to be a successful product and ecosystem, but that is because it has the high-end.

    So what do you suggest they do (in a no hostile-defensive question)? Yes, it's fair to count Windows Phone (7) as the included timeline, but things didn't pick up until Windows Phone (8). From Nokia producing more hardware to more awareness being brought, which is also thanks to Windows 8 being pushed out (along with a ton of catchy commercials and adverts). Windows Phone 7 had somewhat of a push initially, but nowhere near the type of campaign it's getting now (Nokia Lumia 1020 was one of the main advertisements for this past VMA's on MTV). Personally, I think beefing up specs and whatnot should be an Android only thing. Why? Cause, IMO, they need it to a) stand out from the rest and b) there are so many hands in the pot for the OS to be optimized for every single device. It wasn't until Android started catching on that the attention started shifting to specs and power. Before, no one gave a damn. And even to this day, specs (outside of Android) doesn't matter to the general consumer (except for the camera). Now, if Microsoft/Nokia start making the mistake of charging premium prices for lackluster/dated specs (like Blackberry), then they will be shooting themselves in the foot.
    Editguy1900 likes this.
    11-03-2013 01:52 AM
  9. cckgz4's Avatar
    To give a perfect example of optimization: A co-worker of mine has a Samsung Exhibit II (old phone, about a year plus) and whenever she gets alerts, texts, etc. she can see it in her notification header but the phone freezes so bad she has to wait about two minutes before she can go to it. Now let's compare specs:

    The Exhibit has 1 GB of memory and 512 MB ram, was released in 2011 of October, was released with Gingerbread, has a 1GHZ CPU (Scorpion), and a 1500 mah battery

    My phone, the 520, has an 8 GB internal memory and 512 MB of ram, Dual Core 1 GHZ CPU (Adreno), and a 1430 mah battery

    Very close in specs, but different performances. I make this point with a two year old phone because I promise you, two years from now, my 520 won't have the issues that she's having, ESPECIALLY since she just purchased it about 5 months ago brand new
    11-03-2013 01:01 AM
  10. AngryNil's Avatar
    So what do you suggest they do (in a no hostile-defensive question)?… Personally, I think beefing up specs and whatnot should be an Android only thing. Why? Cause, IMO, they need it to a) stand out from the rest and b) there are so many hands in the pot for the OS to be optimized for every single device. It wasn't until Android started catching on that the attention started shifting to specs and power. Before, no one gave a damn. And even to this day, specs (outside of Android) doesn't matter to the general consumer (except for the camera).
    Hm, sorry if I have come across as overly-defensive or anything like that. For all I know, no significant changes will have to be made and Windows Phone will still grow over the next few years. I just think that as competition shifts and Microsoft is still just toes-deep in the market, it's worth reevaluating what's been achieved so far.

    Yeah, Android manufacturers do have this spec-******* contest going on. But Microsoft+Nokia do need a clear reason to choose a Windows Phone over more popular, proven choices like iPhones and Galaxies. It seems Nokia's plan was to saturate the channels with a bunch of models, so consumers will notice one or the other, and hence perhaps consider one. I feel Nokia is spreading itself too thin to allow for each of their models to be compelling at each price point. I don't have any solid numbers to prove my point, but I'm pretty sure (AdDuplex, etc.) that some of their models are simply not doing well. The 520 is a success, but I think that is because it is inherently good, and they need more of that.

    So my original idea was to have more of those kinds of devices at other price points. The reason for saying "this is one of the best devices at $300" does not have to be that it is a Snapdragon 800 inside; it might have a Snapdragon 400, but maybe it's designed like the Lumia 720 and has a great camera. Some people are right in what they say about the Nexus 5, it probably isn't going to get the widest distribution, and it seems that it is going to be marked up at external retailers. Nokia doesn't necessarily need to match or beat it, just have better distribution and its own unique features.

    I'd like to see Nokia bring the stuff they excel in on the high-end further downstream. Great screens (especially in terms of outdoor readability), great cameras. AFAIK the 520 does not have a great screen (though I can hardly blame them at $100), but neither do the 625 and 820. To an even larger degree, only their top-end has their good cameras – 920 and above. The 920 is now discount to $300 occasionally; why not bring that tech to their mid-range (whether it's a 7xx or 8xx class device)? And start pushing 720p to the mid-range, especially for devices larger than say 4.5". I really hope WP 8.1 brings some big change to multitasking, and if it does, I think I'm going to want 1GB of RAM to be more prevalent.

    On the software side of things, perhaps we do get caught up all too often in feature parity. That is very important in my eyes, but so is developing a differentiator. I think Microsoft needs to look at something like Glance and make it a core part of what Windows Phone is. I'd like to see them invest in some "basic" camera features like high-res burst and HDR. Google Now is really pretty sweet, I'd like to see Cortana be a selling feature in the same way. Really start to pump some resources into making sure that Microsoft's services are fantastic on Windows Phone. Make interoperability more seamless, have it so if you're running Windows 8, you're probably going to want to have a Windows Phone because they will work that well together. I'd really like them to pull off application data sync using SkyDrive. Maybe they'll have an opportunity to revive mobile XBL over the next few years – the past year has been relatively quiet for mobile gaming, and the new consoles are almost upon us.

    To give a perfect example of optimization: A co-worker of mine has a Samsung Exhibit II (old phone, about a year plus) and whenever she gets alerts, texts, etc. she can see it in her notification header but the phone freezes so bad she has to wait about two minutes before she can go to it. Now let's compare specs:
    The Exhibit 2 has the same chipset as the Lumia 800. It's not comparable to your Lumia 520.

    Taking a specific model (or perhaps even individual device) which is having serious performance issues doesn't quite discredit Android as a whole. I'm sure you know that the two-minute wait for notifications is atypical. Seriously, I have a tonne of issues I inevitably run into with desktop Windows (even on 8.1 right now) and I could similarly paint it as a terrible mess compared to OS X, but I'm not going to because it's unfair. I'm going to need to spend more time with a family member's Optimus G, which has the same chipset as my 8X, but from the times I have poked around in it, app load times are superior to Windows Phone.
    11-03-2013 04:57 AM
  11. ohgood's Avatar
    I think the Nexus 5 is a pretty good deal if you can get it on your carrier.

    I've been reading about Android 4.4 and something I find interesting is it is optimized for lower end hardware. I think Google is trying to get their hand in the market that Nokia is doing so well in.
    Huh ? There's a market that Google isn't dominating Nokia ?
    11-03-2013 05:23 AM
  12. z33dev33l's Avatar
    Huh ? There's a market that Google isn't dominating Nokia ?
    Yeah, you'd think the low end OS would have a corner on the low end market
    cckgz4 likes this.
    11-03-2013 09:26 AM
  13. cckgz4's Avatar
    I've had a recent android device before so I know all android isn't the same. But even if you compare the Lumia 800, its still better than the exhibit in performance. My point is android's low end (and even some high end) doesn't have a consistent experience across the board. I owned the first LG optimus g for at&t and the performance was GREAT, but wasn't without flaws.

    Sent from my RM-915_nam_usa_228 using Tapatalk
    11-03-2013 11:13 AM
  14. cckgz4's Avatar
    And I wasn't calling anyones post defensive, was clearing up that mine wasn't

    Sent from my RM-915_nam_usa_228 using Tapatalk
    11-03-2013 11:14 AM
  15. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Easy, they run windows phone. Put a lambo engine in a jumbo jet and tell me how it goes. Put a hemi in something optimized for it and you're gonna do a lot better.
    No one OS is phenomenally better than the other these days. I still have a two year old Galaxy Nexus, and it doesn't lag for me in any meaningful way. Chrome, sure, but Chrome takes huge amounts of resources. OS wise, though, it is a lot better than it used to.
    FinancialP likes this.
    11-03-2013 11:52 AM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    I think the idea is that they're almost to the point where every application is in the store. The launcher is in the store, the gmail application is, calendar is, SMS is because of hangouts integration, and the list continues. Once they get everything in the store, it won't matter what version you're on for a long time. They'll just send you updates for the launcher or dialer or whatever else they want to tweak. That's how Google will fight fragmentation.
    That doesn't do anything to fight fragmentation. That may look less fragmented to consumers, and although that is important, it only looks that way.

    What ultimately matters is not how it looks, but how it is. The relevant metric is how many hoops developers must jump through to deal with hardware and OS variability, and how much harder those hoops make it to develop reliable software. How many apps are available in the store changes none of that. In other words, everything below the thin surface (the UI layer), remains exactly as it always has been... a fragmented OS and a fragmented hardware mess.
    rockstarzzz likes this.
    11-03-2013 01:05 PM
  17. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    That doesn't do anything to fight fragmentation. That may look less fragmented to consumers, and although that is important, it only looks that way.

    What ultimately matters is not how it looks, but how it is. The relevant metric is how many hoops developers must jump through to deal with hardware and OS variability, and how much harder those hoops make it to develop reliable software. How many apps are available in the store changes none of that. In other words, everything below the thin surface (the UI layer), remains exactly as it always has been... a fragmented OS and a fragmented hardware mess.
    Fragmentation will always happen, end of story. Android had it, Windows (and Windows Phone) has it, iOS has it. If you really think giving 90% of features doesn't fight fragmentation, you need to get your fanboy glasses off and look at it again.
    FinancialP likes this.
    11-03-2013 01:25 PM
  18. scottcraft's Avatar
    Fragmentation will always happen, end of story. Android had it, Windows (and Windows Phone) has it, iOS has it. If you really think giving 90% of features doesn't fight fragmentation, you need to get your fanboy glasses off and look at it again.
    I agree. Besides I think the only people really concerned about fragmentation are people not using Android.
    11-03-2013 01:30 PM
  19. FinancialP's Avatar
    Won't happen. At the point Google is with Android, there is only so much optimization they can do. They are in the same predicament Microsoft is in with Windows. Any of the big and very worthwhile things you could change to make it run better on low-end hardware, would break compatibility. That isn't an option. These types of engineering decisions need to be factored in at the get-go. For Android, that ship has sailed. That is precisely why Android has been relying almost exclusively on the bigger-faster-better hardware approach. It's really the only viable approach they have. High-end smartphone hardware is now at the point where it can cover up OS inefficiencies. In a few more years, low-end hardware will also reach that point, but the inefficiencies won't be gone... they'll just be out of sight.
    Nope. Read up some more on 4.4, the optimization is the most underrated thing this year. 4.4 system memory/RAM use has been cut nearly 50%, even apps that haven't been recompiled have seen performance increases.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    11-03-2013 01:39 PM
  20. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    I agree. Besides I think the only people really concerned about fragmentation are people not using Android.
    My mom uses an Android phone. She likes some of the features in Jelly Bean, but she's on Ice Cream Sandwich. Is it a deal breaker, though? No, she's happy with what her phone does right now.The only thing she complains about is internal storage.
    11-03-2013 01:56 PM
  21. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Nope. Read up some more on 4.4, the optimization is the most underrated thing this year. 4.4 system memory/RAM use has been cut nearly 50%, even apps that haven't been recompiled have seen performance increases.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    So if I get 4.4 on my GNexus, I should see a big improvement on an already nice device?
    11-03-2013 01:57 PM
  22. FinancialP's Avatar
    So if I get 4.4 on my GNexus, I should see a big improvement on an already nice device?
    You'll have to rely on the Rom community, Google won't be updating the GNex. I agree with their decision.

    You should see a decent bump in performance as 4.4 and all of Google apps have been designed to scale for low end devices. Pretty smart by google.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    11-03-2013 02:04 PM
  23. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    You'll have to rely on the Rom community, Google won't be updating the GNex. I agree with their decision.

    You should see a decent bump in performance as 4.4 and all of Google apps have been designed to scale for low end devices. Pretty smart by google.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm relying on Cyanogenmod.
    FinancialP likes this.
    11-03-2013 02:07 PM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    So you don't think 4.4 will run decent on devices with half a gig of ram? By optimization I meant Google intends to improve memory management and do all sorts of things I don't understand. Seems like I saw a part where there will be tools for app developers to help make their apps more efficient with memory. At this point I won't put it past Google to make android run well on lower hardware. That's really the only area where Android isn't way ahead of everyone.
    Nope. Android will always have background processes that can fire up at any time, and consume an arbitrary amount of system resources, including memory. At this point, changing things like that is no longer possible, at least not without sacrificing app compatibility. Google is free to chip away around the edges as much as they want, but they can't change the fundamental principles on which the OS is based, which is what they would have to do to achieve their goal. Google can surely optimize many things, but as smart as Google's engineers may be, not even they can change the laws of computer science.

    We will see small improvements here and there, but more powerful hardware filtering down to low-end devices is what will ultimately "solve" those problems.
    cckgz4 likes this.
    11-03-2013 02:28 PM
  25. a5cent's Avatar
    Fragmentation will always happen, end of story. Android had it, Windows (and Windows Phone) has it, iOS has it. If you really think giving 90% of features doesn't fight fragmentation, you need to get your fanboy glasses off and look at it again.
    It has nothing to do with fanboy glasses. It has to do with understanding what fragmentation actually is, which you apparently do not.

    EDIT: You're also missing the point entirely. Yes, fragmentation will happen, but this isn't a binary issue. What is important is the degree to which it happens. Apple's iOS has very little fragmentation, whereas Windows and Android are hugely fragmented. That difference isn't negligible.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-03-2013 at 02:41 PM.
    11-03-2013 02:30 PM
91 1234

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-05-2013, 03:19 PM
  2. Phone calls using loud speaker
    By ollieollie93 in forum HTC 8X
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-02-2013, 09:37 AM
  3. 1GB Games on 512mb RAM Windows phones
    By daniloodaa in forum Applications
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-01-2013, 12:39 AM
  4. Help with contacts with multiple phone numbers
    By NutmegState in forum Applications
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-31-2013, 04:14 PM
  5. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-31-2013, 02:43 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD