11-09-2013 07:44 AM
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  1. mase123987's Avatar
    It has nothing to do with fanboy glasses. It has to do with understanding what fragmentation actually is, which you apparently do not.

    EDIT: You're also missing the point entirely. Yes, fragmentation will happen, but this isn't a binary issue. What is important is the degree to which it happens. Apple's iOS has very little fragmentation, whereas Windows and Android are hugely fragmented. That difference isn't negligible.
    Just curious: Are you talking Windows or Windows Phone? Neither has much fragmentation. WP7 isn't being sold any more and will be mostly done with as contracts end. The percent will continue to fall more quickly as WP8 continues to grow.
    Last edited by mase123987; 11-03-2013 at 11:21 PM.
    11-03-2013 09:06 PM
  2. ohgood's Avatar
    I agree. Besides I think the only people really concerned about fragmentation are people not using Android.
    I've noticed this also.
    11-03-2013 10:40 PM
  3. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Windows Phone flagships have traditionally failed to garner much sales. Should Microsoft be pursuing flagships at a low price, at least while Windows Phone still needs to grow substantially? It might not have to reach Nexus pricing, but if off-contract pricing drops by $200 and on-contract pricing starts at $99 ( la Lumia 900), we might see some sales.
    Fully agree. Microsoft need to get WP phones out at cheaper price points than Android. Their only real sales success has been the Nokia 520.
    As WP doesn't have a killer feature, it needs to compete on price until it's well established in the market and can boast a comparable App Store to iOS and Android. Microsoft have plenty of money to fund this.
    11-04-2013 02:01 AM
  4. ohgood's Avatar
    Fully agree. Microsoft need to get WP phones out at cheaper price points than Android. Their only real sales success has been the Nokia 520.
    As WP doesn't have a killer feature, it needs to compete on price until it's well established in the market and can boast a comparable App Store to iOS and Android. Microsoft have plenty of money to fund this.

    again, another person stating the 520 is a big success. that's great if it is, but where are people getting this info ?
    11-04-2013 06:49 AM
  5. poddie's Avatar
    again, another person stating the 520 is a big success. that's great if it is, but where are people getting this info ?
    if you take he user base percentage for the 520 from AdDuplex and multiply by number of handsets in use and factor in the amount of time since release it should be quite clear.

    I suppose it also depends on your definition of "success"... but I would definitely say it is in Nokia and Microsoft's eyes.
    a5cent likes this.
    11-04-2013 06:56 AM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    I agree. Besides I think the only people really concerned about fragmentation are people not using Android.
    I've noticed this also.
    Yes, but is that not a ridiculously obvious statement?

    People for whom guaranteed OS updates and support are major concerns won't buy Android devices, right?
    People who care about a consistent and reliable user experience, without hassle or fuss, they won't buy Android devices either, right?

    People who care about the above might not even be aware of the concept of fragmentation, but nevertheless, they are making purchasing choices based on fragmentation related criteria.

    On the other hand, people who are enticed by hardware specs are at least partially in favour of fragmentation. In the very least they favour hardware fragmentation, because it's impossible to win the specs race on a platform that strives to keep the hardware base as homogenous (a.k.a standardized) as possible, as do iOS and WP.

    CLARIFIED:
    Your statement makes it sound like people with Android devices ignore fragmentation, and those with other devices care about it only for the sake of being able to criticize. That may be true some of the time, but generally you are reversing cause and effect. It's not the device a person owns that determines whether they care about fragmentation, but a persons concern over fragmentation (or fragmentation related affects) that determines what they purchase.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-04-2013 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Clarified last paragraph + terrible spelling
    11-04-2013 07:20 AM
  7. scottcraft's Avatar
    Yes, but is that not a ridiculously obvious statement?

    People for whom guaranteed OS updates and support are major concerns, they won't buy Android, will they?
    People who care about a consistent and reliable user experience, without any hassle or fuss, they won't be getting Android either, right?

    People who care about the above might not even be aware of the concept of fragmentation, but nevertheless, they are making their purchasing choices based on fragmentation related criteria.

    On the other hand, people who are enticed by the best looking hardware specs are indirectly in favour of some aspect of fragmentation, particularly hardware fragmentation, because it's impossible to win the specs race on a platform that strives to keep the hardware base as homogenous (a.k.a standardized) as possible, like that of iOS and WP.

    In light of that, it should be completely obvious that the only people who care about fragmentation are not using Android. That's part of the reason they aren't using it.
    I would say the average consumer that is looking for a phone isn't as concerned about guaranteed OS updates and support and probably not specs either. Most aren't like us that religiously read phone forums and tech sites. What the salesman says about a phone plays a large role in what the average consumer buys.

    Microsoft doesn't need to compete with the Nexus on price. Windows phone is already cheaper on and off contract than most of the high end Android phones and definitely the iPhone. Continuing to add features like they are doing (although speeding up the pace wouldn't hurt) and ending this ridiculous carrier exclusive business is the right way to go in my eyes.
    palandri likes this.
    11-04-2013 07:48 AM
  8. ohgood's Avatar
    Yes, but is that not a ridiculously obvious statement?

    People for whom guaranteed OS updates and support are major concerns, they won't buy Android, will they?
    People who care about a consistent and reliable user experience, without any hassle or fuss, they won't be getting Android either, right?

    People who care about the above might not even be aware of the concept of fragmentation, but nevertheless, they are making their purchasing choices based on fragmentation related criteria.

    On the other hand, people who are enticed by the best looking hardware specs are indirectly in favour of some aspect of fragmentation, particularly hardware fragmentation, because it's impossible to win the specs race on a platform that strives to keep the hardware base as homogenous (a.k.a standardized) as possible, like that of iOS and WP.

    In light of that, it should be completely obvious that the only people who care about fragmentation are not using Android. That's part of the reason they aren't using it.
    By this theory, very few people know, or care about fragmentation.
    11-04-2013 08:20 AM
  9. stmav's Avatar
    Only the android users on a windows phone board care.
    HeyCori likes this.
    11-04-2013 09:01 AM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    I would say the average consumer that is looking for a phone isn't as concerned about guaranteed OS updates and support and probably not specs either. Most aren't like us that religiously read phone forums and tech sites. What the salesman says about a phone plays a large role in what the average consumer buys
    Agreed. Most are oblivious to the affects of fragmentation, or simply don't care (at least from a consumers point of view). Anyway, the implications of that statement are entirely different from those made by the original statement, which is basically reversing cause and affect, which would more correctly read: those people who care about fragmentation will tend to avoid Android.

    However, despite being largely ignored, I still think fragmentation has a role to play. Although consumers generally aren't aware of the concept, and don't consciously consider it before purchasing a device, it is still reflected in many soft factors like reputation, ease of use and perceived quality. Those things do influence people's purchasing decisions, whether they are aware of fragmentation or not.

    Of course reputation, ease of use and perceived quality of an OS still represent just a small piece of what sways consumers purchasing decision.

    By this theory, very few people know, or care about fragmentation.
    Exactly. Almost all developers care, because fragmentation makes their job more complicated and costly, but the general public doesn't.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-04-2013 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Some clarifications
    11-04-2013 10:17 AM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    Just curious: Are you talking Windows or Windows Phone? Neither has much fragmentation. WP7 isn't being sold any more and will be mostly done with as contracts end. The percent will continue to fall more quickly as WP8 continues to grow.
    Windows, not Windows Phone. I would otherwise have mentioned Windows Phone explicitly, but yes, that isn't always clear.

    Anyway, if you think Windows isn't massively fragmented, then you misunderstand the concept. Windows is probably the most fragmented computing platform in existence. That most software is still targeting Windows XP is an obvious sign of OS fragmentation. Microsoft can't even guarantee that all Windows 8 users have the same version of the OS installed (8.0, 8.1, or any of the gazillion states in between that are achieved by downloading various combinations of weekly updates). Hardware fragmentation on Windows platforms is even worse. Literally millions of possible hardware combinations exist that the OS might be running on.

    Millions of hours are spent, developing things like DirectX and adaptive rendering engines to deal with this diversity. At least 10% of the computers performance is being "wasted" on the abstraction levels that are introduced to make this diversity more manageable. For a PC that may be acceptable, but on power and performance restricted devices like smartphones that makes a noticeable difference.

    You are correct that WP has very little fragmentation. The most severe example of fragmentation on WP is encountered when developers must target their apps at both WP7 and WP8. Hardware fragmentation on WP is very low however, just as it is on iOS. Those platforms have very little fragmentation, because Microsoft and Apple both make conscious and deliberate efforts to minimize it.
    N_LaRUE likes this.
    11-04-2013 10:45 AM
  12. cckgz4's Avatar
    if you take he user base percentage for the 520 from AdDuplex and multiply by number of handsets in use and factor in the amount of time since release it should be quite clear.

    I suppose it also depends on your definition of "success"... but I would definitely say it is in Nokia and Microsoft's eyes.
    Thank you. If you're curious enough, look it up on your own. If anything, it's more of a bait and if sales aren't that spectacular, there will be some lip involved, and I'll be damned if I look something up for someone just so they can disregard it cause it's not a huge amount. No one, NO ONE, is claiming the 520 is selling out the wazoo, but it's the biggest purchased WP device to date
    11-04-2013 12:32 PM
  13. ohgood's Avatar
    Thank you. If you're curious enough, look it up on your own. If anything, it's more of a bait and if sales aren't that spectacular, there will be some lip involved, and I'll be damned if I look something up for someone just so they can disregard it cause it's not a huge amount. No one, NO ONE, is claiming the 520 is selling out the wazoo, but it's the biggest purchased WP device to date
    The defensive posturing I can't do anything about. Just figured if a few people said the same thing about phone x doing great, they saw the information somewhere and might share it.
    11-04-2013 01:00 PM
  14. nstine20's Avatar
    It seems to me like a better comparison would be the Nexus 5 and the Lumia 929. 5" AMOLED screen, 1080p, 2gb ram, 32gb storage (rumors of a 64gb version as well), 20 megapixel camera. I haven't seen any mention of price yet, but on paper this seems to be more of a 1:1 comparison. I still expect the 32gb Nexus 5 at $399 will have the edge on price, but the 929 has the better camera. I personally prefer WP8 OS to Android though. Too bad the phone is Verizon only.
    11-04-2013 01:39 PM
  15. power5's Avatar
    WP is still in a phase of huge fragmentation right now. My less than 2 year old device will NEVER be unfragmented till my contract is over and I can buy a phone with the newer OS. I bought mine like 10 months before WP8 came out. If I had an Android or iPhone of that same age, I would have been guaranteed an update to the latest OS after release. Instead, i got no update at all. Not even to the new start screen 7.8. I had to go 3rd party and hack it onto my phone. I can finally upgrade out of my current phone. Dont tell me I could have just bought another phone at any point either. With carriers you pay a subsidy price with all of their plans. You can make a special request to get a different type of contract I think though, for the cheaper rates. T mobile and a few others are exceptions, but they do not get the best hardware for most manufacturers.

    I love the WP UI, but until the whole OS is more stabilized and supported by developers, I will be taking my money elsewhere for this contract period. Probably the Note3 since I have a family plan with grandfathered unlimited and will be paying a subsidising fee still.
    11-05-2013 01:34 PM
  16. anony_mouse's Avatar
    I wouldn't be surprised if Google is heavily subsidizing the cost of the phone. With the amount of money they have they can afford to do that. Other OEMs don't have that luxury.
    Microsoft have a lot more money than Google. Why don't they subsidise some Windows Phones?
    jonathanrn likes this.
    11-09-2013 07:44 AM
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