12-17-2013 04:37 PM
30 12
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  1. FearL0rd's Avatar
    11-19-2013 05:05 PM
  2. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I don't think there is any need for concern. The majority stockholders (including Gates and Ballmer) have enough shares to avoid any issues.
    HeyCori, snowmutt, jmshub and 2 others like this.
    11-19-2013 10:55 PM
  3. snowmutt's Avatar
    In the time since his announced retirement, MS has changed the structure of it's divisions, moved forward buying Nokia, never waivered on it's unification of services, and even restructured the way they evaluate their employees.

    The new CEO will HAVE to be onboard with the new directions and vision of this company. Maybe he/she will change how they get there, but MS will continue on this path. I am excited.
    Laura Knotek and Reflexx like this.
    11-20-2013 04:08 AM
  4. vishnu ambili's Avatar
    Ballmer's vision of unified systems and services, MS going a devices and services company is the only good thing he ever did as a CEO. His regrets over vista is squared with this. Now the new CEO just have to make sure these visions are realized in near future.
    11-20-2013 04:17 AM
  5. FearL0rd's Avatar
    The share holders are trying to sell bing and xbox division. Even Elop talked about this
    I don't know if it is a good idea.
    11-20-2013 07:58 PM
  6. snowmutt's Avatar
    The share holders are trying to sell bing and xbox division. Even Elop talked about this
    I don't know if it is a good idea.
    Not buying into those rumors. Especially "Bing". Forget the pricetag- it is incorporated into EVERYTHING MS is packaging. Yes, internationally it is a long way from good, but the service itself is so vital. Not going anywhere. XBOX is the same way- it is a brand which is vital to their services vision.

    Even if they did "remove" them for the purpose of pumping up stock prices- the ONLY advantage to such a decision- they would most likely be spun into their own "company" under the MS umbrella, not sold off.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-21-2013 12:40 AM
  7. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Not buying into those rumors. Especially "Bing". Forget the pricetag- it is incorporated into EVERYTHING MS is packaging. Yes, internationally it is a long way from good, but the service itself is so vital. Not going anywhere. XBOX is the same way- it is a brand which is vital to their services vision.
    I am still not convinced about the value of keeping Bing within Microsoft. I'm talking specifically about the Internet search engine business. Everyone here likes to talk about integration, but I still haven't seen a reason why Microsoft can't buy (*) Internet search from an external company (which could be the new independent Bing), or better still let the user choose. This does not stop Microsoft from integrating search results from other sources (e.g. SkyDrive, outlook.com - if you don't mind MS scanning all your files and e-mails of course), and searching locally on your machine.

    As I said before in other threads, all major platforms have integrated search - even Ubuntu (if you call that a major platform). It's not really that hard.

    (*): Or more likely, be paid to use.
    11-21-2013 07:46 AM
  8. Jas00555's Avatar
    Ballmer's vision of unified systems and services, MS going a devices and services company is the only good thing he ever did as a CEO. His regrets over vista is squared with this. Now the new CEO just have to make sure these visions are realized in near future.
    Really? That's the ONLY good thing he's done in the past 13 years? I can think of a few off the top of my head *cough* xbox 360, xbox one, windows 7 *cough* sorry, don't know what came over me there.
    shmsnh and troylytle like this.
    11-21-2013 09:10 AM
  9. Reflexx's Avatar
    The share holders are trying to sell bing and xbox division. Even Elop talked about this
    I don't know if it is a good idea.
    Elop didn't talk about this. Elop wouldn't even be considered if that is what he wanted.
    It's just internet BS put out there from a bunch of short term thinking shareholders. Thank goodness they don't own enough stock to actually force such actions.
    11-21-2013 09:41 AM
  10. Reflexx's Avatar
    I am still not convinced about the value of keeping Bing within Microsoft. I'm talking specifically about the Internet search engine business. Everyone here likes to talk about integration, but I still haven't seen a reason why Microsoft can't buy (*) Internet search from an external company (which could be the new independent Bing), or better still let the user choose. This does not stop Microsoft from integrating search results from other sources (e.g. SkyDrive, outlook.com - if you don't mind MS scanning all your files and e-mails of course), and searching locally on your machine.

    As I said before in other threads, all major platforms have integrated search - even Ubuntu (if you call that a major platform). It's not really that hard.

    (*): Or more likely, be paid to use.
    The technology behind Bing is much more than an internet search engine.

    And yes, the level they have Bing at IS "really that hard."
    11-21-2013 09:44 AM
  11. anony_mouse's Avatar
    The technology behind Bing is much more than an internet search engine.

    And yes, the level they have Bing at IS "really that hard."
    So people here often say, but please can you explain exactly what Bing does that is "much more than an Internet search engine". We had a long discussion about this recently and no-one actually told me despite repeated requests.

    BTW, I'm not saying that Internet search is easy. It's not. I mean that *integrating* Internet search and results from other sources (local files, e-mail, Amazon, ...) is not that hard, and each of those searches can be done independently.
    11-21-2013 09:51 AM
  12. Reflexx's Avatar
    So people here often say, but please can you explain exactly what Bing does that is "much more than an Internet search engine". We had a long discussion about this recently and no-one actually told me despite repeated requests.
    I believe people did explain things to you in the other thread. But unless you you a sting tech background, detailed nuances behind it won't make much sense to you.

    BTW, I'm not saying that Internet search is easy. It's not. I mean that *integrating* Internet search and results from other sources (local files, e-mail, Amazon, ...) is not that hard, and each of those searches can be done independently.
    It is hard. FAST search is hard. RELEVANT search is even harder. Having the engine learn is even harder.

    Building a search ecosystem that aggregates data from different platforms and uses that data to improve contextual search for others using the same platform is a monumental task.
    11-21-2013 11:35 AM
  13. anony_mouse's Avatar
    I believe people did explain things to you in the other thread. But unless you you a sting tech background, detailed nuances behind it won't make much sense to you.
    If I remember correctly people just kept saying 'integration' which doesn't really explain anything. Anyway, I hope user won't need to understand string theory in order to use this special search. Perhaps you can explain what this looks like from the user's point of view and then I might understand?

    It is hard. FAST search is hard. RELEVANT search is even harder. Having the engine learn is even harder.

    Building a search ecosystem that aggregates data from different platforms and uses that data to improve contextual search for others using the same platform is a monumental task.
    Which part of that requires Microsoft to own an Internet search business?
    As I said, aggregating data from different platforms is not that hard. You call some search API for each platform (I assume an example of a platform would be Facebook) and bung the results together in some way. Even if MS sell Bing they can still do that part, if they want. Not sure I get what you mean by 'for others using the same platform'. Which platform do you mean?
    I wonder if I'm missing something here. Could you give some examples of what you mean, especially by the last sentence? Something simple is fine, such as what the user does and what she sees as a result.

    Edit: about 'contextual search'... This means that when I hit the search button and I'm in my email app, my email is searched. Or when I search for 'Zimbabwean restaurant' and I'm in Beirut, local results appear first and Zimbabwean restaurants in Moscow are way down the list. Correct?
    Last edited by anony_mouse; 11-21-2013 at 12:24 PM.
    11-21-2013 11:56 AM
  14. Reflexx's Avatar
    If I remember correctly people just kept saying 'integration' which doesn't really explain anything. Anyway, I hope user won't need to understand string theory in order to use this special search. Perhaps you can explain what this looks like from the user's point of view and then I might understand?
    To the user it's seamless. That's why it appears simple. There are multiple technologies at work, but the user shouldn't have to worry about that. They don't even need to be aware of it.

    Which part of that requires Microsoft to own an Internet search business?
    As I said, aggregating data from different platforms is not that hard. You call some search API for each platform (I assume an example of a platform would be Facebook) and bung the results together in some way. Even if MS sell Bing they can still do that part, if they want. Not sure I get what you mean by 'for others using the same platform'. Which platform do you mean?
    I wonder if I'm missing something here. Could you give some examples of what you mean, especially by the last sentence? Something simple is fine, such as what the user does and what she sees as a result.
    Owning the data gives MS much more power that just licensing a service. Especially when the service is embedded and integral to how future products function. It's made as part of the OS now for Windows, WP and XBOX.
    Usage data from Kinect voice recognition, WP Bing search, Windows, etc... all improves not only voice recognition, but contextual decision making.

    All of this is new territory for search. It's not about searching anymore. It's about taking that data and making good decisions with it.
    You won't see anything explicitly awesome yet. We're in the early phases where the foundation is being built.

    Short term investors don't care about that. But for long term investors, it's great.
    11-21-2013 12:33 PM
  15. anony_mouse's Avatar
    To the user it's seamless. That's why it appears simple. There are multiple technologies at work, but the user shouldn't have to worry about that. They don't even need to be aware of it.
    I don't expect the user to know how it works, but I hope they will notice some improvement in something. It's that improvement I was asking about.

    Owning the data gives MS much more power that just licensing a service. Especially when the service is embedded and integral to how future products function. It's made as part of the OS now for Windows, WP and XBOX.
    Usage data from Kinect voice recognition, WP Bing search, Windows, etc... all improves not only voice recognition, but contextual decision making.
    So - I will extrapolate some examples from this. Is this the kind of thing you have in mind?
    - My Kinect overhears me talking about Monte Carlo. When I later search Bing for 'holidays', Monte Carlo appears top of the list.
    - Windows notices that I'm writing a letter to my friend in Yakutsk. When I later open the e-book reader on my WP, it offers to sell me a Russian phrase book. When I go to a flight booking website, Yakutsk is the default destination.
    - My xbox notices I've been playing games for 46 hours in a row. When I later open Windows app store, it recommends a dating app.
    (I appreciate all these are creepy examples, but I couldn't think of any non-creepy ones).

    Is this fundamentally about Microsoft building up a profile of you in the cloud, based on what you do with (or near) each device, and then using that data to 'personalise' the services it offers to you? Current search engines build a user profile, of course, but they only see what a user searches for, and maybe their location, but not all the stuff they do in other contexts. Is the reason to keep Bing within Microsoft that it's then easier for Internet search to take advantage of that profile, and for that profile to include information gained about the user from their searches?

    All of this is new territory for search. It's not about searching anymore.
    That's a great quote!

    It's about taking that data and making good decisions with it.
    Can you give an example of the kind of decision that will be taken? Are my examples good?

    You won't see anything explicitly awesome yet. We're in the early phases where the foundation is being built.

    Short term investors don't care about that. But for long term investors, it's great.
    This foundation being the data gathered from users? So services have some good information to work with once they are built?

    BTW I'm not trying to be awkward or to prove a point. I'm just trying to understand why everyone here (apart from me) gets so worked up about the suggestion that Bing is sold.
    Last edited by anony_mouse; 11-21-2013 at 02:00 PM.
    11-21-2013 01:20 PM
  16. Reflexx's Avatar
    I don't expect the user to know how it works, but I hope they will notice some improvement in something. It's that improvement I was asking about.



    So - I will extrapolate some examples from this. Is this the kind of thing you have in mind?
    - My Kinect overhears me talking about Monte Carlo. When I later search Bing for 'holidays', Monte Carlo appears top of the list.
    - Windows notices that I'm writing a letter to my friend in Yakutsk. When I later open the e-book reader on my WP, it offers to sell me a Russian phrase book. When I go to a flight booking website, Yakutsk is the default destination.
    - My xbox notices I've been playing games for 46 hours in a row. When I later open Windows app store, it recommends a dating app.
    (I appreciate all these are creepy examples, but I couldn't think of any non-creepy ones).

    Is this fundamentally about Microsoft building up a profile of you in the cloud, based on what you do with (or near) each device, and then using that data to 'personalise' the services it offers to you? Current search engines build a user profile, of course, but they only see what a user searches for, and maybe their location, but not all the stuff they do in other contexts. Is the reason to keep Bing within Microsoft that it's then easier for Internet search to take advantage of that profile, and for that profile to include information gained about the user from their searches?



    That's a great quote!



    Can you give an example of the kind of decision that will be taken? Are my examples good?



    This foundation being the data gathered from users? So services have some good information to work with once they are built?

    BTW I'm not trying to be awkward or to prove a point. I'm just trying to understand why everyone here (apart from me) gets so worked up about the suggestion that Bing is sold.
    It's not necessarily about data gathering from users, but more about recognizing patterns across the whole ecosystem.

    Does the system notice that when most people say, "Monte Carlo" from an XBOX they end up choosing a racing game, while when it's said on a phone they want info on a car, but when on a tablet they want a hotel, etc... Inferring context without it having to be explicitly programmed because of pattern recognition.

    Just understand that search isn't just the action of typing in some stuff into a line in a browser anymore. Now, a lot of "search" is about analyzing data instead of just finding it. This is embedded into how operating systems are working now and in the future. Just like how the file system itself is part of the OS.
    11-21-2013 05:56 PM
  17. michail71's Avatar
    Ballmer's vision of unified systems and services, MS going a devices and services company is the only good thing he ever did as a CEO. His regrets over vista is squared with this. Now the new CEO just have to make sure these visions are realized in near future.
    IMHO, the complaints about Vista were overblown. I never had any problem with it myself. The hardware manufacturers were not ready. By the time 7 came along the hardware and drivers had caught up.
    11-21-2013 06:07 PM
  18. RJ Priest's Avatar
    Did anyone see this week's episode of South Park? (not off topic) :p
    11-21-2013 06:41 PM
  19. anony_mouse's Avatar
    1. It's not necessarily about data gathering from users, but more about recognizing patterns across the whole ecosystem.

    2. Does the system notice that when most people say, "Monte Carlo" from an XBOX they end up choosing a racing game, while when it's said on a phone they want info on a car, but when on a tablet they want a hotel, etc... Inferring context without it having to be explicitly programmed because of pattern recognition.

    3. Just understand that search isn't just the action of typing in some stuff into a line in a browser anymore. Now, a lot of "search" is about analyzing data instead of just finding it. This is embedded into how operating systems are working now and in the future. Just like how the file system itself is part of the OS.
    Quick reply...

    1. I assume that involves data gathering on a massive scale, correct?

    2. Do you have examples of when this might actually be useful? Learning that when I say Monte Carlo near a tablet I want a hotel saves me from typing "Monte Carlo" into a booking site, at the expense of doing something annoying and inappropriate when I want to play a racing game.

    3. Practical examples please. I won't start an argument about what an operating system is. :-)
    11-21-2013 11:44 PM
  20. Reflexx's Avatar
    Quick reply...

    1. I assume that involves data gathering on a massive scale, correct?

    2. Do you have examples of when this might actually be useful? Learning that when I say Monte Carlo near a tablet I want a hotel saves me from typing "Monte Carlo" into a booking site, at the expense of doing something annoying and inappropriate when I want to play a racing game.

    3. Practical examples please. I won't start an argument about what an operating system is. :-)
    I'm not going to try to think up examples.

    MS apparently thinks it's iimportant enough to integrate into low levels of OSes. Much smarter minds than mine have bigger plans.

    If you don't want MS to build a foundation for the future, but instead want them to think short term, that's your business.
    11-22-2013 12:29 AM
  21. bryantest's Avatar
    I am still not convinced about the value of keeping Bing within Microsoft. I'm talking specifically about the Internet search engine business. Everyone here likes to talk about integration, but I still haven't seen a reason why Microsoft can't buy (*) Internet search from an external company (which could be the new independent Bing), or better still let the user choose. This does not stop Microsoft from integrating search results from other sources (e.g. SkyDrive, outlook.com - if you don't mind MS scanning all your files and e-mails of course), and searching locally on your machine.



    As I said before in other threads, all major platforms have integrated search - even Ubuntu (if you call that a major platform). It's not really that hard.

    (*): Or more likely, be paid to use.
    Does satori ring any bells to you?
    11-25-2013 03:18 AM
  22. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Does satori ring any bells to you?
    No. Could you explain?
    11-25-2013 04:58 AM
  23. anony_mouse's Avatar
    I'm not going to try to think up examples.
    OK. No-one apart from me has been able to provide a single example of a single use for this technology. Not a single one. And all my examples are things that I don't want. My conclusion is therefore this - any advantages of this all seeing technology are likely to be massively outweighed by the disadvantages. If Microsoft's products did this kind of thing, I would not buy them. (*)

    MS apparently thinks it's iimportant enough to integrate into low levels of OSes. Much smarter minds than mine have bigger plans.
    It's a pity they can't tell anyone what those plans are. I don't mean everything, just a few examples to help us (and more importantly, these 'investors') understand the direction.
    BTW, I don't believe Microsoft are integrating search into the 'low levels of OS's'. It's a good idea to read a bit about operating systems to understand how and where a service like this is integrated. For example, I don't believe the NT kernel (which is now used by all Windows OS's) will have any dependency on a search technology.

    If you don't want MS to build a foundation for the future, but instead want them to think short term, that's your business.
    I don't want anything from Microsoft. I am completely neutral. Except that I may be a Microsoft shareholder, so Microsoft may be paying some of my pension, and therefore I want some reassurance that this will all one day make some money.
    BTW, my 'creepy examples' above do provide some reasons for Microsoft to keep Bing. Advertisers and governments would love the opportunities this constant monitoring of the public offers (*). It's bad for us as users, but may be very profitable.

    Any positive examples are still welcome and might yet change my mind!

    (*) Assuming this constant monitoring is really what Microsoft have planned - I didn't see such an announcement myself.
    Last edited by anony_mouse; 11-25-2013 at 07:01 AM.
    11-25-2013 05:11 AM
  24. bryantest's Avatar
    No. Could you explain?

    Its Bing's supermassive data repository. Its going to power Cortana
    11-25-2013 09:37 AM
  25. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Its Bing's supermassive data repository. Its going to power Cortana
    Interesting. What kind of stuff do they put in it? What will it be used for - more specific than 'powering Cortana' (which will be similar to Siri, I think?) would be appreciated!

    EDIT: I will rephrase my question - what will Satori do that Bing or Google don't currently do? As a user, what difference/improvement will I see?
    Last edited by anony_mouse; 11-26-2013 at 03:14 AM.
    11-25-2013 10:20 AM
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