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11-26-2013 12:19 PM
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  1. thymaster's Avatar
    Please read my last paragraph on each thread carefully. I am referring to try Microsoft services like email and search engine as an alternative to Google. For Blackberry I'm only interested in their phones, security and BBM. I"m posting on both sites to see the different perspective of Blackberry users and Microsoft fan boys. I'm keeping an open mind to see other people's view and to steer away from the Googleplex. Thanks you for noticing.
    11-22-2013 04:25 AM
  2. thymaster's Avatar
    Welcome Back
    Attachment 50280
    LOL, that's the creepiest gif I have ever seen.
    11-22-2013 04:30 AM
  3. thymaster's Avatar
    Personally I don't care what phone you or anyone else choose to use. I am curious though as to why you didn't cut and paste this on the iMore forum as well. Posting the same rant on crackberry and wpcentral seems at best rather silly.
    Haha, I'm getting there. I'm still absorbing all these perspective from WPCentral and Crackberry users and it's giving me a lot of ideas for my paper.
    11-22-2013 04:46 AM
  4. neo158's Avatar
    only if you live in the US😉

    Bing on other languages is worst.





    Sent from my Lumia 1020 using Tapatalk
    Actually I disagree, in the UK Bing is just as good as the US. There are a few things that are missing in the UK but they aren't important.
    11-22-2013 05:19 AM
  5. neo158's Avatar
    And Google is providing a mostly good service.
    They might be, but to who. The users of their products like youtube and Android or the companies buying the information?
    11-22-2013 05:27 AM
  6. Funky Cricket's Avatar
    here's how to make it easy: Google is an ad company (primary revenue), so they give you stuff for free to show you ads or otherwise use you and your data for ads. Microsoft is a software company, they give you stuff to sell you software related to the free stuff (windows OS, windows phone, xbox, xbox music, xbox live), while they will also gather data, it is for the purpose of making their software more sellable (marketing says "better" here) to you or their other target markets. I'd trust someone trying to sell me something before i'd trust someone trying to sell me to someone else.
    11-22-2013 08:50 AM
  7. alaskanjackson's Avatar
    To your question regarding a MSFT account to activate or use WP. It is necessary to begin, you can then add your preferred email, search etc and effectively ignore outlook or Hotmail account after set up.I have an old Gmail account that is dormant on my Lumia 920 along with a Hotmail account and two outlook accounts one for work and one for home.
    11-22-2013 09:02 AM
  8. Chregu's Avatar
    here's how to make it easy: Google is an ad company (primary revenue), so they give you stuff for free to show you ads or otherwise use you and your data for ads. Microsoft is a software company, they give you stuff to sell you software related to the free stuff (windows OS, windows phone, xbox, xbox music, xbox live), while they will also gather data, it is for the purpose of making their software more sellable (marketing says "better" here) to you or their other target markets. I'd trust someone trying to sell me something before i'd trust someone trying to sell me to someone else.
    ...so, there are no commercials on Bing?

    http://advertise.bingads.microsoft.com/en-uk/sign-up

    http://advertising.microsoft.com/en-...y-ad-targeting
    11-22-2013 10:06 AM
  9. tacofiend's Avatar
    I live in Canada and to be honest, I've given Bing and honest chance and every single time it has NEVER given me results even close to Google, so I keep going back.
    thymaster likes this.
    11-22-2013 11:23 AM
  10. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    ...so, there are no commercials on Bing?
    Do you honestly think that is what he said? Do you think that playing generic commercials is the same thing as collecting and selling peoples data without them being aware of what data is being collected, when it's happening, and how it's being distributed?

    The bottom line is that lot's of companies are collecting data about their customers. It's what they do with it that matters. There are different levels of how this is being done, but it's pretty well known that Google is pushing the limits. They have an obvious business interest is pushing those limits as far as they can because that is how they make most of their money. Microsoft makes most of their money selling software, services, and devices so it's in their best interest to be reasonably careful with any customer data they collect. Googles business model simply goes too far for some people and crosses their line of comfort.
    neo158, thymaster and falconrap like this.
    11-22-2013 12:51 PM
  11. Loco5150's Avatar
    I'm sure many of you are aware of the Google+ and YouTube Integration recently that have cause millions of YouTubers around the world to be emotionally angry and frustrated. First of all who freaking uses Google+. I have attempted many times to disconnect and delete Google+ from invading my YouTube profile and I've finally given up. This woke me up and made me realize how many of us are becoming dependent of Google's services. I notice my phone contact have been uploaded to Google+ and across their other services. I never gave google+ permission to upload my personal phonebook in the first place. I only created a google email account because I was forced into when activating my Samsung Android phone.
    This... I got the first Galaxy to see what the whole Android was about... I unchecked ALL damn places because I didnt want my contacts to be synced to their servers. What happened? Anyway one day I noticed all my contacts were up in their servers in that dummy gmail account I had to create... Google thing will not end up well, trust me.. In 20-40-60 years, who knows all this data they are collecting will be used to make something really f*up sh*t.

    Im in Europe and sadly Bing is just not up at Googles level in searches. I hope they catch up and I can totally stop using their services. Except for dummy email boxes that are just for useless sign ups and only collect spam.
    thymaster likes this.
    11-22-2013 01:24 PM
  12. Chregu's Avatar
    Do you honestly think that is what he said? Do you think that playing generic commercials is the same thing as collecting and selling peoples data without them being aware of what data is being collected, when it's happening, and how it's being distributed?

    The bottom line is that lot's of companies are collecting data about their customers. It's what they do with it that matters. There are different levels of how this is being done, but it's pretty well known that Google is pushing the limits. They have an obvious business interest is pushing those limits as far as they can because that is how they make most of their money. Microsoft makes most of their money selling software, services, and devices so it's in their best interest to be reasonably careful with any customer data they collect. Googles business model simply goes too far for some people and crosses their line of comfort.
    Well that's a lot of talking without any sources. At least I gave you a link in which Microsoft describes how they provide targeted ads, which of course means collecting and using customer data.

    It's nice to think Microsoft is better because they also sell stuff, but under consideration that they are a business and they need to make Bing profitable, I think this is mostly wishful thinking.

    Of course, provide me with a few good sources showing that I am wrong and I will be very sorry and continue using Microsoft products and Google Search, as Bing is a disaster in my country.
    thymaster likes this.
    11-22-2013 03:02 PM
  13. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    Well that's a lot of talking without any sources. At least I gave you a link in which Microsoft describes how they provide targeted ads, which of course means collecting and using customer data.

    It's nice to think Microsoft is better because they also sell stuff, but under consideration that they are a business and they need to make Bing profitable, I think this is mostly wishful thinking.

    Of course, provide me with a few good sources showing that I am wrong and I will be very sorry and continue using Microsoft products and Google Search, as Bing is a disaster in my country.
    I didn't feel the need to cite sources because I was mostly calling you out for taking people's comments out of context and oversimplifying their arguments (something you are continuing to do BTW). Also, I'm not doing a book report.

    Apparently, you are one of these people that thinks every issue in the world is black and white. You seem to think that because both companies are using "targeted advertising" that means they are both equally good or bad. Like most controversial issues, it's not that simple and there are many shades of gray between the extremes. My whole point of my post (second paragraph) was that Google takes it further than most other companies and some people aren't comfortable with that. However, you keep trying to simplify it into "so Microsoft has never advertised anything?"

    The source you provided was just a Microsoft website that talks about very basic targeted advertising using things like age, gender, location, operating system, and topics of interest. There is nothing in your source that shows that Microsoft is obtaining that data in unethical ways or targeting consumers in ways that could potentially be embarrassing.

    Targeted advertising could be anything from a radio commercial for condoms broadcast on a rock station instead of a Christian radio station, to a malware program that hijacks someone's browser or email contacts and steals their data while forcing ads on them and their stolen email contacts. I think nearly everyone would agree that one business model is far more invasive and far less ethical than the other. So where does Google sit on this range of extremes?

    Since you wanted sources, here is one recent and well documented example of how Google collects data from consumers...

    Google, FTC Near Settlement on Privacy - WSJ.com

    Here are some of the highlights...

    "The current charges involve Google's use of special computer code to trick Apple's Safari Web-browsing software into letting it monitor users that had blocked such tracking. Google disabled the code after being contacted by the Journal, which wrote about Google's practices in February.

    Google officials say tracking of Apple users was inadvertent and didn't cause any harm to consumers. But Google's actions appeared to contradict previous statements it had made assuring Apple users that they could rely on Safari's privacy settings to block unwanted tracking. "

    ...and...

    "The fine is expected to be the largest penalty ever levied on a single company by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission."

    Here are some interesting quotes from Google's CEO Eric Schmidt...

    "... all users of email must necessarily expect that their emails will be subject to automated processing ... Just as a sender of a letter to a business colleague cannot be surprised that the recipient's assistant opens the letter, people who use web-based email today cannot be surprised if their communications are processed by the recipient's ECS [electronic communications service] provider in the course of delivery"

    A more accurate analogy in my opinion would be if the US Post Office or FexEx was reading your mail in transit, but apparently he feels that Google is as privileged to people's information as a trusted personal assistant.

    "If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."

    So much for researching a medical condition online or ordering anything remotely personal from an online retailer.

    EDIT: Oh yeah, as far as your comment that ...

    "It's nice to think Microsoft is better because they also sell stuff, but under consideration that they are a business and they need to make Bing profitable, I think this is mostly wishful thinking."

    I would like to point out that Microsoft doesn't NEED to profit on Bing or advertising any more than Google needs to profit on the software and services (android, gmail, gdrive, maps, etc.) they provide. This is because Google makes it's money from advertising and Microsoft makes it's money selling software, services, and hardware. It seems your example actually supports the point that myself and others are trying to make.
    Last edited by Cleavitt76; 11-22-2013 at 09:29 PM.
    11-22-2013 09:18 PM
  14. ag1986's Avatar

    The source you provided was just a Microsoft website that talks about very basic targeted advertising using things like age, gender, location, operating system, and topics of interest. There is nothing in your source that shows that Microsoft is obtaining that data in unethical ways or targeting consumers in ways that could potentially be embarrassing.

    Targeted advertising could be anything from a radio commercial for condoms broadcast on a rock station instead of a Christian radio station, to a malware program that hijacks someone's browser or email contacts and steals their data while forcing ads on them and their stolen email contacts. I think nearly everyone would agree that one business model is far more invasive and far less ethical than the other. So where does Google sit on this range of extremes?
    Hi there,

    I'm here to dispel FUD, show you how Google's advertiser options are exactly the same as MS', and chew bubblegum, while also calling out nonsense like "stolen email contacts", haha! At least you can choose not to sync contacts or anything at all on Android while still using a Google account to purchase apps. Let's see you do the same with a WP?

    Those links, this one to be exact: Display Ad Targeting Solutions - Microsoft Advertising explain how MS allows display ad targeting. This is the other side to Search advertising which is simple and done by every search engine out there.

    Let me explain what each mean and how Bing's options are exactly analogous to Google's therefore demonstrating that both are the same.

    Profile Targeting on Bing = Demographic targeting on Google, target based on age, income, gender etc.

    Behavioural Targeting = Interest Category targeting, based on your past search history and known interests - i.e. MS and Google record your search history and use it to advertise.

    Remessaging = Remarketing, using a cookie placed on your computer when you visit a site to identify you and show ads of that site, even when you are on other sites

    Category Targeting = Topic Targeting, showing ads contextually based on the content of the site or other content that you are viewing.

    They're basically the same, you see. Difference being that Google got into the game earlier and MS is trying to catch up. Also that Google rarely takes money from end-users while with MS, even if you've paid for Windows, a Surface, a WP, whatever, you're still seeing their ads. Also with the new Bing integrated search on Windows 8.1, MS can theoretically record ALL your searches, even on your local system.
    11-23-2013 12:38 AM
  15. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    @ag1986, Reading comprehension. Get some.

    My comment about "stolen email contacts" was about malware and it was used as an example of the most extreme data collection techniques that exist. I used radio advertising as the opposite extreme. It was not in reference to Google or any other legitimate company.

    The rest of your post simply explains the same basic targeted ad techniques which I had already talked about when I said this...

    "Apparently, you are one of these people that thinks every issue in the world is black and white. You seem to think that because both companies are using "targeted advertising" that means they are both equally good or bad. Like most controversial issues, it's not that simple and there are many shades of gray between the extremes. My whole point of my post (second paragraph) was that Google takes it further than most other companies and some people aren't comfortable with that. However, you keep trying to simplify it into 'so Microsoft has never advertised anything?'"

    So now that you are done explaining the basic concepts of targeted advertising, please explain how "Google's use of special computer code to trick Apple's Safari Web-browsing software into letting it monitor users that had blocked such tracking" fits into the accepted targeted advertising techniques you described.
    11-23-2013 01:46 AM
  16. Chregu's Avatar
    So now that you are done explaining the basic concepts of targeted advertising, please explain how "Google's use of special computer code to trick Apple's Safari Web-browsing software into letting it monitor users that had blocked such tracking" fits into the accepted targeted advertising techniques you described.
    Not everything is black and white, there are shades of gray.

    Did Google trick Apple's Safari into tracking users? | ZDNet

    Do I believe Google's explanation (at the bottom)? At least it sounds better than the Google is evil theory. However that might be because smear campaigns are not very common in Europe and therefore also the Scroogled campaign doesn't exist here. It seems to work in the USA to some extent.

    Microsoft's anti-Google crusade is working (says Microsoft) | Technically Incorrect - CNET News
    11-23-2013 02:05 AM
  17. skstrials's Avatar
    As much as I hate google, I have tried Bing and it's simply not as good as google search

    also, there is no real competition for Youtube right now.
    I have a question actually.

    On windows phones, can you configure the search button and change the search provider to other than Bing?
    thymaster likes this.
    11-23-2013 09:17 AM
  18. troylytle's Avatar
    You can change the default to google but it will still be Bing on the hardware button. But when you type random queries in ie it will google it.
    thymaster likes this.
    11-23-2013 09:20 AM
  19. neo158's Avatar
    As much as I hate google, I have tried Bing and it's simply not as good as google search

    also, there is no real competition for Youtube right now.
    I have a question actually.

    On windows phones, can you configure the search button and change the search provider to other than Bing?
    The search button on Windows Phone is as configurable as the search bar on Android!!
    skstrials likes this.
    11-23-2013 09:22 AM
  20. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    They might be, but to who. The users of their products like youtube and Android or the companies buying the information?

    -_-

    Kind of both?
    11-23-2013 09:34 AM
  21. Chregu's Avatar
    The search button on Windows Phone is as configurable as the search bar on Android!!
    How? There's this Russian trick that is supposed to work, but doesn't on my HTC 8X. However, already the fact that a trick is needed makes it clear that it isn't as configurable as on Android.
    11-23-2013 11:36 AM
  22. GSOgymrat's Avatar
    Privacy issues aside, I just like Microsoft's services better than Google's. I don't understand why Gmail is considered so amazing when Outlook has such a nice look and good features. I enjoy typing anything from my start screen and seeing all my options. I definitely prefer Internet Explorer to Chrome. The one area where Google is far and away superior is YouTube-- there is nothing comparable to it.
    Laura Knotek, dznk, neo158 and 1 others like this.
    11-23-2013 12:59 PM
  23. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Privacy issues aside, I just like Microsoft's services better than Google's. I don't understand why Gmail is considered so amazing when Outlook has such a nice look and good features. I enjoy typing anything from my start screen and seeing all my options. I definitely prefer Internet Explorer to Chrome. The one area where Google is far and away superior is YouTube-- there is nothing comparable to it.
    I don't have Chrome installed on any of my computers. I use Firefox even on my Linux PCs. I also changed my default search engine in Firefox from Google to Bing.
    dznk likes this.
    11-23-2013 01:07 PM
  24. neo158's Avatar
    How? There's this Russian trick that is supposed to work, but doesn't on my HTC 8X. However, already the fact that a trick is needed makes it clear that it isn't as configurable as on Android.
    Except the Search bar on Android ONLY searches on Google, that's what I'm trying to say. You can't configure it to search Bing instead without a hack!!
    Chregu likes this.
    11-23-2013 03:03 PM
  25. tgp's Avatar
    Except the Search bar on Android ONLY searches on Google, that's what I'm trying to say. You can't configure it to search Bing instead without a hack!!
    Yes I haven't found a way to change it. But let's look at the situation: Android users have zero reasons to use Bing. Google search is mostly better than Bing's, and anyone using Android isn't concerned about privacy issues. WP users, however, may want to use Google search because of better results, especially if they live outside the US. That said, Microsoft should in no way be obligated to enable users to change the default search.
    Laura Knotek, neo158 and Chregu like this.
    11-23-2013 04:38 PM
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