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02-16-2014 10:18 PM
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  1. tardismatrix22's Avatar
    If Microsoft really wanted to own the market, they have to make it so any app on windows 8.1 will work on windows phone. Also they have to remove the traditional desktop. These two things will make Microsoft sky rocket.
    anony_mouse likes this.
    02-07-2014 09:13 PM
  2. Phone Guy 4567's Avatar
    If they remove the desktop the skyrocket will fly straight into the ground, and it would be the biggest gift that they could give Apple IMO. I can imagine the Apple ads now telling disgruntled Windows users forced to use the modern UI that Apple hasn't abandoned their desktop UI. People don't like to be forced into using anything especially if there are viable alternatives to Windows, and IMO there is no great love for MS among the public at large.
    02-07-2014 11:40 PM
  3. kingjah's Avatar
    Boot to desktop is only for non-touch computers.
    Genghis7777 likes this.
    02-07-2014 11:56 PM
  4. anony_mouse's Avatar
    If Microsoft really wanted to own the market, they have to make it so any app on windows 8.1 will work on windows phone. Also they have to remove the traditional desktop. These two things will make Microsoft sky rocket.
    That's the funniest post I read in a long time. :-)
    02-08-2014 03:01 AM
  5. ohgood's Avatar
    op, while you, and a few people here on wpcentral may like it, the market has spoken... loudly

    the masses don't like change generally, and really don't like forced change. they do not want, or care about w8 new interface. they just want the desktop they're used to.

    that is why Microsoft is regrouping
    02-08-2014 05:32 AM
  6. ininjam's Avatar
    Unlike you guys, I don't know if I belong to the intelligence class. Perhaps I am quite stupid. Whatever, I don't like metro. I find it ugly and awkward to use on a PC - and I'm not the only one. I would like Microsoft to allow me to easily avoid it. That doesn't just mean booting to the desktop, it also means not throwing me back into metro when I open a PDF (for example).
    Well that's not really a good example in my opinion. Me, I'm just grateful that we now have a decent out-of-the-box way of viewing pdf at all. Of course, if you choose to install and default your pdf viewing (for example) to a desktop program, that's completely fine and to your taste. And it won't be anything different from anything before Windows 8. Complaining that Microsoft should've made something they've given us in a consistent package this way and that way, well, to me that's just for complaining's sake.
    mpt15 likes this.
    02-08-2014 11:39 AM
  7. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Well that's not really a good example in my opinion. Me, I'm just grateful that we now have a decent out-of-the-box way of viewing pdf at all. Of course, if you choose to install and default your pdf viewing (for example) to a desktop program, that's completely fine and to your taste. And it won't be anything different from anything before Windows 8. Complaining that Microsoft should've made something they've given us in a consistent package this way and that way, well, to me that's just for complaining's sake.
    I don't really get your point (clearly I'm not in this so called 'intelligence class'). What is it not a good example of? I don't see this as "complaining for complaining's sake". I see it as complaining because a new product is worse than an old product, and I now spend much more time using Linux and iOS rather than Windows because of it. And as I said before, the PDF viewer is just one example of this behaviour - it happens in so many situations. Nice one Steve!
    But as I'm not a member of your intelligence class, no doubt this is just my ignorance and stupidity. If my mind was as developed as yours, no doubt I would love jumping between the desktop and metro all the time.
    02-08-2014 06:38 PM
  8. masterchief1984's Avatar
    When it comes to PC people are set in their ways. I worked IT for AT&T and I heard nothing but complaints coming from both our employees and customers. Personally I welcomed the change of Windows 8, it was something new to the PC world. And to be honest it was something that was needed from MS if they were to truly get into the mobile world. Hopefully the update will be something of a guiding hand for people to ease into the future.
    02-08-2014 06:51 PM
  9. thatotherdude24's Avatar
    Honestly, they need to do away with desktop and make it so you can be just as productive in "Metro" (or whatever they decide to call it as they did away with Metro). That means a way of the desktop style apps running in the new UI as well as a powerful file manager. Those can be done, and the desktop needs to go. I know a few Windows 8 users that don't even use the new UI, and Microsoft needs to expose people to it so they and the company can move forward.

    Posted via the WPC App for Android on my BlackBerry

    I agree with this.

    I do like Windows 8/8.1 but as with anything it could be better. I do think it would much much simplier if Microsoft had a Modern UI version and a Desktop version of Windows so there was no switching back and forth, it's either one or the other. I do think that would solve so much confusion especially with RT. RT is not meant to be a desktop OS, it's a tablet OS but the people walking into Best Buy or Walmart see the Windows name and automatically think it runs all my programs. Simplicity is key and this would be much easier, RT does not need a desktop since it only runs Modern apps.
    02-08-2014 06:57 PM
  10. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Ok, let's try this from a different angle.
    1. What advantage is it for me to use metro rather than the desktop on my PC? Please bear in mind that I don't like metro.
    2. What advantage is it to Microsoft to dump me back in metro so regularly? Please once again bear in mind that I don't like metro, and that alternative OS's are available.
    02-09-2014 03:19 AM
  11. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Ok, let's try this from a different angle.
    1. What advantage is it for me to use metro rather than the desktop on my PC? Please bear in mind that I don't like metro.
    2. What advantage is it to Microsoft to dump me back in metro so regularly? Please once again bear in mind that I don't like metro, and that alternative OS's are available.
    Why not just boot to desktop then?
    BIGPADDY likes this.
    02-09-2014 03:49 AM
  12. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Why not just boot to desktop then?
    I think you missed my earlier posts. Even if I boot to desktop, Windows dumps me back into metro regularly, for example when I open a PDF, but also in many other situations. It's a lot of effort to avoid metro completely, and much easier to stick with Windows 7 (or Linux). How does this benefit either me or Microsoft?
    02-09-2014 04:21 AM
  13. mpt15's Avatar
    I think you missed my earlier posts. Even if I boot to desktop, Windows dumps me back into metro regularly, for example when I open a PDF, but also in many other situations. It's a lot of effort to avoid metro completely, and much easier to stick with Windows 7 (or Linux). How does this benefit either me or Microsoft?
    set the default to use the desktop adobe reader. That will solve your problem. Pc settings > search and apps > set default by file type.
    Or in file explorer, right click on the pdf file > open with > choose default program.
    If there's a way to avoid the metro UI, its cannot be a problem for you, and you aren't being dumped anywhere at all.theres a perfectly simple and effective way to avoid the metro pdf reader. in fact, even in windows 7 I had set defaults for .jpg .png .bmp files so that they would open in the program I wanted. Its not asking a lot.
    02-09-2014 05:10 AM
  14. anony_mouse's Avatar
    set the default to use the desktop adobe reader. That will solve your problem. Pc settings > search and apps > set default by file type.
    Or in file explorer, right click on the pdf file > open with > choose default program.
    If there's a way to avoid the metro UI, its cannot be a problem for you, and you aren't being dumped anywhere at all.theres a perfectly simple and effective way to avoid the metro pdf reader. in fact, even in windows 7 I had set defaults for .jpg .png .bmp files so that they would open in the program I wanted. Its not asking a lot.
    As I said, I found many situations where I was dumped back into metro. Let me repeat as the message doesn't seem to be getting through - many situations. Many situations. PDF viewing is just one example. I am fully aware, as I said, that settings can be changed for each situation. Please read that sentence again so I don't have to repeat it.
    Anyway, I think the discussion on application defaults has run its course. More interesting is the view above that Microsoft should drop the desktop entirely and force everyone to use metro all the time. I think that would be stupid. What do others think?
    02-09-2014 05:20 AM
  15. mpt15's Avatar
    As I said, I found many situations where I was dumped back into metro. Let me repeat as the message doesn't seem to be getting through - many situations. Many situations. PDF viewing is just one example. I am fully aware, as I said, that settings can be changed for each situation. Please read that sentence again so I don't have to repeat it.
    Anyway, I think the discussion on application defaults has run its course. More interesting is the view above that Microsoft should drop the desktop entirely and force everyone to use metro all the time. I think that would be stupid. What do others think?
    so you've never customised your desktop mode, no wallpapers, screensavers, battery mode, brightness, choice of music player, etc? If you dont want to try, you can't fix your problems. Anyway, it seems you have made up your mind.
    02-09-2014 05:32 AM
  16. ininjam's Avatar
    I don't really get your point (clearly I'm not in this so called 'intelligence class'). What is it not a good example of? I don't see this as "complaining for complaining's sake". I see it as complaining because a new product is worse than an old product, and I now spend much more time using Linux and iOS rather than Windows because of it. And as I said before, the PDF viewer is just one example of this behaviour - it happens in so many situations. Nice one Steve!
    But as I'm not a member of your intelligence class, no doubt this is just my ignorance and stupidity. If my mind was as developed as yours, no doubt I would love jumping between the desktop and metro all the time.
    My point was that before Microsoft didn't even offer a baked-in pdf viewer, and now they do, and if it's in the style of their vision for their platform, that's completely fine, and there's a zillion other alternatives that you can look at and choose the most suitable one for you out of. As with all the other softwares (your 'many situation' I presume), no one forces you to use the out-of-box softwares, and as someone has said above, customizing the user experience to one's choosing has always been what everyone has been doing since the dawn of time, regardless of the OSes, or anything for that matter, of their choosing.
    And since it's a thread I started, I apologize if its contents have offended you, even though I was not the one who mentioned the 'intelligence race', nor do I think it is true. However, I think since none of us has ever mentioned it after the comment but you, bringing it out to spark discontent and to separate yourself from the group is not constructive and does not make you special. I also hope you can be less spiteful in your future comments, we are all human, we can sense it, and a sour discussion only leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
    Last edited by ininjam; 02-09-2014 at 08:35 AM.
    anony_mouse and snowmutt like this.
    02-09-2014 08:07 AM
  17. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Actually I found the 'intelligence class' (not race) comment particularly interesting and outrageous. I was extremely surprised no-one else responded to it as it seems fascinating from a psychological perspective. Clearly any comments I made about it were aimed at the original poster of that comment, not others in the forum. I hope that would be obvious.
    I'm now quite bored of the 'PDF viewer' discussion. If no one else thinks it's a problem, then good for you. I'll make my choices and you can make yours. But I am interested in views, as I said above, about dumping the desktop altogether. What is your opinion of this?
    02-09-2014 10:17 AM
  18. ininjam's Avatar
    Actually I found the 'intelligence class' (not race) comment particularly interesting and outrageous. I was extremely surprised no-one else responded to it as it seems fascinating from a psychological perspective. Clearly any comments I made about it were aimed at the original poster of that comment, not others in the forum. I hope that would be obvious.
    I'm now quite bored of the 'PDF viewer' discussion. If no one else thinks it's a problem, then good for you. I'll make my choices and you can make yours. But I am interested in views, as I said above, about dumping the desktop altogether. What is your opinion of this?
    In this matter, my view is that Metro is more suitable for touch screen devices, desktop is of course for desktop computing, and it would be more functional if, instead of getting rid of one or the other, Microsoft make Windows 'adapt' to each user use case, which I believe Microsoft is finally doing with its Update 1. I made the thread out of frustration at the initial report as I thought Microsoft was not 'adapting', but the more I read about it, the more I think Microsoft is doing the right thing.
    mpt15 likes this.
    02-09-2014 03:52 PM
  19. jmshub's Avatar
    Ok, let's try this from a different angle.
    1. What advantage is it for me to use metro rather than the desktop on my PC? Please bear in mind that I don't like metro.
    2. What advantage is it to Microsoft to dump me back in metro so regularly? Please once again bear in mind that I don't like metro, and that alternative OS's are available.
    1 - You don't need to use Metro. You never have to use any metro apps, you can use desktop applications to perform every task that you can in Metro.

    2 - As I said before, the defaults out of the box will send you to metro apps. Change the default. You only need to do this once, and it takes like two minutes. Then you never have to see metro again ever if you don't want to. You are making an enormous mountain out of a molehill. Update 1 for 8.1 is rumored to open metro apps in the desktop to avoid this behavior. I don't know, as I haven't seen it yet, but this may solve your problem. It may not, and you may be happier with Linux. If that is the best solution for you, then go for it. You're not going to upset anyone here. And to continue to argue the philosophy of the dual UI when solutions have been offered to your issue is straight up trolling.
    mpt15 likes this.
    02-10-2014 08:19 AM
  20. anony_mouse's Avatar
    1 - You don't need to use Metro. (etc)
    As I said above, I see this as a problem as it happens in so many situations. If you don't, then that's good for you. BTW, I don't have to stick with Linux - Windows 7 is also possible.
    Interestingly, when I did try to use metro, I found the opposite problem - I would regularly get dumped back in the desktop. This happened a lot, especially when performing more "technical" tasks. It gives the whole thing a rather "unfinished" feel.
    Anyway, arguing about the philosophy of dual UI solutions seems perfectly valid. Isn't that the point of this thread?
    And just to warn you, accusing another member of 'trolling' is against Forum guidelines.
    02-10-2014 08:48 AM
  21. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    The Win8 "dual UI" was an idiotic choice by MSFT (by "dual UI" I mean Metro and the RT API effort together). There was absolutely no reason to fragment Windows that way. The result:

    1. MSFT threw 1.5 billion existing users and who knows how many billions of hours of user experience in the toilet. When people see the Metro UI on a machine at BestBuy they think, "where's *my* Windows?". At this point, if they're going to have to learn a completely new UI they might as well look at the alternatives to Windows. Chromebooks are the serious threat here from the consumer side. Businesses are simply waiting out MSFT to see where to go next -- Apple being the big threat there.

    2. MSFT threw thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of ISVs under the bus by tossing the well known/battletested Win32 API in trash and replacing it with the critically limited and incompatible RT API. And worse, they didn't even implement the RT strategy properly! To fully support Windows, ISVs have to create three completely separate source code trees: one for Win32 (which pays the bills), one for WinRT, and a third for WinPRT. In addition, MSFT takes 30% of sales for the RT programs. So, if you're a small ISV, are you going to triple your work just to support MSFT's RT disaster and give MSFT 30% of sales? I don't think so. It's all pain and no gain.

    3. MSFT isn't immune from item #2 either. Look at the confusion over Office on WinRT and WinPRT. They had to give themselves an exclusion so that Office would run in Desktop mode on the SurfaceRT. Even MSFT's own app teams didn't want to take on the extra work to produce RT versions of their programs!

    Fragmenting Windows like MSFT did with Win8 is, without a doubt, the biggest blunder I've ever seen in my decades in the tech world. Most companies would be bankrupted by it. MSFT will continue on for a decade by simple inertia and their huge cash pile before becoming completely irrelevant. The fix is completely obvious to anyone with a brain:

    a. Define a secure subset of the existing Win32 API. Throw out old, obsolete APIs.
    b. Implement a simple, scalable UI API in Win32. Call #1 and #2 together "Win32X".
    c. Implement a Win32X shell that scales with the display size. Windowed mode on large screens, fullscreen on small displays.
    d. Implement a Win32X Store but only take a 10% cut of sales.
    e. Backport Win32X to Windows 7.

    Item (e) is critical because it means that ISVs can switch their programs to the new Win32X system while maintaining compatibility with existing users. That eliminates the need to have multiple, incompatible source trees for development. With proper dev guidance from MSFT, a single source tree could run on phones, tablets, laptops, desktops, and even XBoxOne.

    Users would be happy with a Win32X system because the "Desktop" remains a desktop on their large screen PCs. Win32X apps would run in a window on large screen devices like always ... and when they run it on a small screen device, the app would adapt to the available space (which is the same as running in a small window on the Desktop, anyway).

    The Win32X concept is so obvious that they have to have considered and then rejected it. The top two people responsible for that decision are gone. Now's the time for the new CEO and Board to root out all the others responsible for the WinRT disaster.
    02-10-2014 09:42 AM
  22. jmshub's Avatar
    Mike, I think you make some good points, but I don't entirely agree either. Right off the bat, you say that Microsoft had no reason to add the Metro UI to Windows. I think this is an important distinction, because Microsoft was vastly behind on mobile and tablet. They needed something for the ipad / android tablet market. I do like having a "real" operating system on a tablet instead of an intentionally limited os like android or ios. I will concede that the two UI approach wasn't perfect, and there are times it definitely isn't as polished as I'd like. When I get pushed to the desktop to make configuration changes to my Dell V8P, or needing to use Metro apps on my 15" non-touch laptop, it's not a perfect experience, but I think Microsoft has been making the process better with 8.1, and the pending Update 1.

    Your point #1 however, I disagree with completely. Chrome OS is basically useless. It's a netbook OS at best. It may get better. It may be a serious challenge to Windows over time. That time isn't soon. So, nobody is buying Chrome, and they aren't buying it to replace Windows PCs. At best, they are using them as a second PC for basic browsing or whatever.

    Likewise, business does not use Apple. OSX doesn't work in the enterprise, and Apple has backed away from that even further. Even with any possible pains that Windows 8 may have, it's still Windows. That makes it fully compatible with Active Directory. There is no computer management tool for enterprise that can even come close to AD.
    02-10-2014 08:17 PM
  23. T Moore's Avatar
    On my Surface RT the UI the machine boots up to is my choice. All that is being changed is the default bootup UI. The user selection will still be there.
    Why the flap over one checkbox?
    02-10-2014 08:44 PM
  24. anony_mouse's Avatar
    On my Surface RT the UI the machine boots up to is my choice. All that is being changed is the default bootup UI. The user selection will still be there.
    Why the flap over one checkbox?
    I have never used Windows RT, so please correct me if I'm wrong - but doesn't Windows RT have only the metro UI, plus, a crippled version of the desktop that only supports Office? What choice do you have when booting Windows RT?
    02-11-2014 03:00 AM
  25. anony_mouse's Avatar
    So, nobody is buying Chrome, and they aren't buying it to replace Windows PCs. At best, they are using them as a second PC for basic browsing or whatever.
    I am confused by your statement. On the one hand, nobody is buying Chrome (books - I assume). On the other, they are buying them as a second PC. Which is it? Certainly, the first statement is wrong - see Chromebook Sales Surge in 2013 to 21% of All Notebook Sales | TechnoBuffalo (or many other sources).

    I used to agree with you about Chromebooks, but I had one on loan recently and it completely changed by mind. It's not a replacement for a Linux or Windows desktop/laptop, but it is a very fast, no maintenance web browser (+ a bit) with keyboard attached. Like tablets and smartphones, I found it reduced even further what I use a PC for.
    02-11-2014 03:11 AM
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