02-16-2014 10:18 PM
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  1. ininjam's Avatar
    Guys, I am feeling both confused and a bit annoyed at the news that I just read so I have to put it here. It has always been Microsoft's vision to push forward with their "Metro", or Modern, interface, to the point where it applies the design language to every one of its products and, even though I was not converted until actually using Windows 8, as a person who loves the new Windows, I truly believe that it will be the future face of Microsoft's ecosystem. I was really happy to see how Windows Phone 8's and Xbox One's UI further confirms this vision, and brings a sense of unity to Microsoft, if only to what its shows to the outside world. Then today I read the report that Microsoft is now making booting to desktop the default option in Windows 8.1 Update 1, and I found my belief challenged. Personally I find this move very redundant. Putting all the complaints about productivity aside, Metro is, in my opinion, leaps and bounds over its competitors in terms of usability (by that I'm talking about other mobile OSes' UI.) It just feels very natural to navigate Windows 8, especially when you have a touch screen (I find a good trackpad to works just as well), which makes it ideal for expansion into other forms of computing experience e.g. tablets. And the with the desktop retaining its original functionality (without anything scaling to full screen, seriously, I don't understand people's complaints about this, since no matter where they access their programs, if it's a desktop program, they are never scaled, and therefore, no one is forced to use Metro-like multitasking), the Metro interface makes Windows infinitely more flexible than before, where everyone can get what they want in one device. This is how Microsoft vision has been communicated to me. Now it is also to my understanding that the only thing that's keeping Microsoft from achieving this vision, is the fact that it has not been able to build a competitive enough application reserve to satisfy the Metro-side of the crowd, the reason for which is that developers are still not convinced in the sustainability of the interface. So why does Microsoft, in the time that it needs to show its commitment to moving forward the most, that it needs people's confidence in its vision the most, why in such a moment does it choose to, instead of staying ahead and stick to the game, backtrack - and to me it's also a sign of - abandon its vision?
    I don't know how Microsoft works, nor do I know how they came to the decision on these changes, but I personally think that whoever it is that is in charge of these developments, has gotten something fundametally wrong about customer communication. The changes had never been bad changes, just different changes, radically different changes at that, compare to the old Windows image. The reason for the implemetation having been not as successful as Microsoft has hoped for, in my opinion, was not because of how the changes clashed with customers' needs, but was because of how they clashed with customers' expectations of the product they are getting. Look at how even the most trivial feature that was added to any iStuffs or Samsung's products would be announced, explained and marketed to death months before it actually came out, and long into its life cycle (fingerprint reader, Smart Glance (I think), etc.), and there would always be explanations and step-by-step guidance and even more ads in even the store showcase models, so that there would be no confusion, no misunderstanding once the product actually reached people's hand. On the other hand, somethings so radically different in looks and function from its legacy, with the gargantual responsibility of preserving that legacy like Windows 8, just silently slid out and barely even came with a functional tutorial. Nothing that's shown on showcasing machines actually gives people an understanding of how things works, just how nice it looks. Which is a completely wrong approach, since technology is something that needs constant adaptation and relearning, and the easier and more obvious such activities are shown, the better the consumers will join in. They have fixed this somewhat in Windows 8.1, but still have not had a clear enough message. The Charm bar, for example, was one of the most confusing point to the average customers, and while I personally find it very natural and enhance the ease of use immensely, it would have benefited Microsoft much more had they properly done the explanation themselves to everyone.
    The same happened with the Windows Store, Microsoft's vision on which I completely understand. However, people do not come to Windows with the expectation they have when using iOS or Android, and Windows Store, as much as it mimics the existing app stores, needs to be considered a foreign concept to Windows itself and to its users. The fact that Microsoft has failed to communicate its vision on the Store to its customers, or simply to convey the use cases and advantages of Apps on Windows over the desktop version, is also what has put it today in the chicken-and-egg situation of developers and customers.
    It would therefore, be much more sensible to me, if Microsoft, instead of making small changes that only shows its uncertainty in its version, would engage itself on a mass-customer-education program, where it goes the length to guide its customers on exactly how things work in Windows 8. A tutorial video, compact and includes the essential tricks for navigating Windows 8 on startup, and constants reminders and contextual helps and tips (like what they did with windows 8.1, just more detailed and thorough, for EVERYTHING new in windows) would be a great start. Refreshing the demo video in showrooms would be good changes (not sure if they already did it anywhere else.) And from now on, be more open about the changes, and while staying firm with the vision, make sure that their customers would know exactly what they are getting into, would improve Microsoft's image immensely. I believe in Microsoft's vision, and I truly hope that they would not abandon themselves in the short-term run, and instead push forward
    to victory.
    -End of rant, congratulations if you get here
    serenityangel, snowmutt and wpn00b like this.
    01-31-2014 08:46 AM
  2. Genghis7777's Avatar
    Microsoft gets criticized no matter what they do, for years they were chastised for being boring and conservative. Then when they finally did something truly innovative, they get lambasted.

    Sent from my RM-915_apac_australia_new_zealand_214 using Tapatalk
    01-31-2014 09:00 AM
  3. Jazmac's Avatar
    Metro isn't going away. Most of us in the intelligence class will continue to use it. I say intelligence class because loser bloggers and their readers still believe XP is Microsoft's best work and why? Because they suffered though the learning curve from Windows 98 to XP and believe there is pure suffrage to learn again. I wouldn't get caught up with how bloggers are describing what happens next with this OS. They haven't had a clear understanding of anything since the debut of Clippy.
    01-31-2014 09:01 AM
  4. HeyCori's Avatar
    Who should we believe? Probably Microsoft.

    Report: Microsoft might not make Windows 8.1 Update 1 boot to desktop by default - Neowin
    BIGPADDY and wpn00b like this.
    01-31-2014 10:11 AM
  5. ajst222's Avatar
    Honestly, they need to do away with desktop and make it so you can be just as productive in "Metro" (or whatever they decide to call it as they did away with Metro). That means a way of the desktop style apps running in the new UI as well as a powerful file manager. Those can be done, and the desktop needs to go. I know a few Windows 8 users that don't even use the new UI, and Microsoft needs to expose people to it so they and the company can move forward.

    Posted via the WPC App for Android on my BlackBerry
    snowmutt and sashlon like this.
    02-03-2014 06:27 AM
  6. Jaskys's Avatar
    Microsoft is afraid, it needs a strong hand to lead it
    Right now it's a huge confused/scared turtle
    02-03-2014 06:34 AM
  7. 3earnhardt3's Avatar
    Being afraid of changing away from the "pure metro" experience is no different than being afraid of changing away from a traditional desktop experience. The OS must continue to evolve. I embrace new, please don't let metro grow stale like iOS did ages ago. The touch file explorer experience needs to be rewritten from scratch. The pathetic hierarchy view present in most metro apps is terribly inefficient. Don't even get me started on trying to use the desktop explorer on a 8 inch W3.
    snowmutt and wpn00b like this.
    02-03-2014 12:32 PM
  8. jmshub's Avatar
    I think part of the problem is the lack of developers making truly important applications for Metro. As long as they are allowed, all "big" applications like Photoshop, or small business applications will be built in Win32. Because for one, they are all in maintenance mode, they aren't make wide, sweeping clean-sheet re-writes of these applications. They are fixing bugs and adding features. Until Microsoft can get these people to join Metro, they cannot kill the desktop.
    Laura Knotek, snowmutt and wpn00b like this.
    02-03-2014 12:41 PM
  9. ininjam's Avatar
    In my opinion, for the big applications, touch would be the next natural step in development, e.g. Photoshop is experimenting with its Adobe Photoshop Touch for multiple platforms, etc. I understand that rethinking and rewriting a programs originally with a zillion features all visually presented and optimized for pin-point interaction to working naturally with touch would be a tremendous task. Even Microsoft has not been able to bring everything from its desktop UI to the touch environment (why desktop still exists even on tablets), or even optimizing its Office Suite for touch, and making something like a full-feature Photoshop Touch would be at least as difficult as making a full-feature Modern Office. In fact, we can look at how Microsoft's own Office Suite is intended to evolve, according to what we have gathered, to see how big application would evolve, and in my opinion, all big software companies are furiously developing touch version of their star software while testing the water with mobile, limited versions. An example would be when Microsoft was reported to plan bring optimized touch Office to iOS and Android devices (they already have Office Mobile on WP8 for testing, and free touch-optimized OneNote app in Windows Store.) Thus, I believe we can safely believe all big softwares will come to touch-based devices in general, and Windows 8 devices in particular in due time, and they don't even need us telling them to try as hard as they can.
    Also, while we are talking about Modern version of desktop programs, I would say that one of the greatest disadvantage of Windows in increasing their number is also one of its greatest strengths: It has a basically omnipotent reserve of desktop applications, there is almost nothing to think of to add to Windows when you talk about it as a desktop OS. And because it is still considered a desktop OS first and foremost (even we Windows enthusiasts still count desktop programs among Windows app reserve, and mention it with pride), in everyone's eye, it would already be powerful enough, functional enough, that there would be nothing to add, to fix, to improve (that would need an app), that facilitate the demand and supply of more apps.
    02-03-2014 04:23 PM
  10. Genghis7777's Avatar
    @Jaskys better scared than complacent

    Sent from my Lumia 520 using Tapatalk
    02-04-2014 01:27 PM
  11. Jaskys's Avatar
    @Jaskys better scared than complacent

    Sent from my Lumia 520 using Tapatalk
    Whatever, such big company which makes lots of silly mistakes and moves at turtle speed doesn't deserve to stay in a market.
    I like microsoft but recently it's just wasting talent of many people.
    02-04-2014 01:38 PM
  12. LumiaGuy's Avatar
    OP - you'd probably get more people interested in discussing your posts if you'd use some paragraphs to break things up a bit.
    02-04-2014 09:27 PM
  13. snowmutt's Avatar
    I do not think they are backtracking at all, I think they are correcting a mistake. NOT in introducing Metro UI (which we are supposed to be calling Modern UI, though no one does), but because MS released this huge new way to do things without a built in way to choose to go back to what everyone was used to- the traditional desktop. Every other time they did this massive reboot from one to another- like what @jazmic mentioned in post #3- there was a "go back to what you understand in case of emergency" button or selection until the new became the norm. Usually that was a year or two. Had LAST YEAR, Microsoft released desktops/laptops/ultrabooks with the start button option they are putting in the next update, then their users would not have been "afraid" of the new OS. They would have bought them, used the old desktop preference, and played around with Windows 8 off and on and gotten familier with it and it's strengths.

    I also completely agree with both @ajst222 comment #5 and @jmshub comment #8 about developers. In this Brave New World of tech, if you do not have your developers on board with your decisions, do not do it. Consumers expect developers products built in or at least as an option.

    This is why even Monsters like Google, Samsung, and Apple would rather fight patent wars or pay royalties on patents then start over. Can you imagine Google trying to "reboot" Android without at least the vast majority of it's developers agreeing? No chance. And WHY would developers agree to fund new apps when they have good cash flow being generated by things as they are? So, off to court goes Google and it's Android OEMs.

    No, I think Microsoft is doing the right thing to ensure it's future for the next decade. Get what consumers want on your devices so you can introduce them to what they really need for the future, even if they do not realize it. The Modern (ugh) UI will provide much more advantages for the future of operations then the traditional desktop will. Consumers just need a reason to feel okay with the switch.
    02-05-2014 12:58 AM
  14. snowmutt's Avatar
    Microsoft is afraid, it needs a strong hand to lead it
    Right now it's a huge confused/scared turtle
    Nah, not afraid. If they were afraid, just sit on their massive money maker in Enterprise and not done a thing different. They went all in on Windows 8 and Windows Phone and the Live Tile experience on XBOX, their Cloud service and their email. This was a gutsy move and they are 100% betting on themselves to make it work.

    Now, confused? Oh yeah, they can't seem to agree on a model to make things work. I am seeing confused as well.
    02-05-2014 01:02 AM
  15. snowmutt's Avatar
    Oh... and welcome to the forums ininjam. Love this as a first thread. Look forward to all the other arguments you start!!

    Meant as a good thing, of course!!
    02-05-2014 01:04 AM
  16. ininjam's Avatar
    Oh... and welcome to the forums ininjam. Love this as a first thread. Look forward to all the other arguments you start!!

    Meant as a good thing, of course!!
    Thanks, just realized I forgot the introduction post
    snowmutt and BIGPADDY like this.
    02-05-2014 04:24 PM
  17. ininjam's Avatar
    OP - you'd probably get more people interested in discussing your posts if you'd use some paragraphs to break things up a bit.
    I did think it was a bit of a text wall, but what was a man to do with his passion? Anways, thanks for the heads-up.
    snowmutt and BIGPADDY like this.
    02-05-2014 04:28 PM
  18. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Metro isn't going away. Most of us in the intelligence class will continue to use it.
    Unlike you guys, I don't know if I belong to the intelligence class. Perhaps I am quite stupid. Whatever, I don't like metro. I find it ugly and awkward to use on a PC - and I'm not the only one. I would like Microsoft to allow me to easily avoid it. That doesn't just mean booting to the desktop, it also means not throwing me back into metro when I open a PDF (for example).

    If you like it, that's great. I'm not suggesting MS should get rid of it. But don't force it on people who don't want it, or we will look for alternatives.

    BTW, how would I know if I was a member of this 'intelligence class'?
    02-07-2014 08:26 AM
  19. mpt15's Avatar
    Unlike you guys, I don't know if I belong to the intelligence class. Perhaps I am quite stupid. Whatever, I don't like metro. I find it ugly and awkward to use on a PC - and I'm not the only one. I would like Microsoft to allow me to easily avoid it. That doesn't just mean booting to the desktop, it also means not throwing me back into metro when I open a PDF (for example).

    If you like it, that's great. I'm not suggesting MS should get rid of it. But don't force it on people who don't want it, or we will look for alternatives.

    BTW, how would I know if I was a member of this 'intelligence class'?
    if you want to avoid viewing pdf and other files in the metro app, set the desktop apps as the default for opening the file types you are interested in. There is choice!
    02-07-2014 08:47 AM
  20. jmshub's Avatar
    Unlike you guys, I don't know if I belong to the intelligence class. Perhaps I am quite stupid. Whatever, I don't like metro. I find it ugly and awkward to use on a PC - and I'm not the only one. I would like Microsoft to allow me to easily avoid it. That doesn't just mean booting to the desktop, it also means not throwing me back into metro when I open a PDF (for example).

    If you like it, that's great. I'm not suggesting MS should get rid of it. But don't force it on people who don't want it, or we will look for alternatives.

    BTW, how would I know if I was a member of this 'intelligence class'?
    Install a non-metro PDF reader. Acrobat Reader, FoxIt, or Firefox. You can work in Windows 8 and literally never see Metro if you don't want to.
    02-07-2014 08:48 AM
  21. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Install a non-metro PDF reader. Acrobat Reader, FoxIt, or Firefox. You can work in Windows 8 and literally never see Metro if you don't want to.
    I am fully aware that I can do that. But it's another annoying step that I shouldn't have to take, and that many people will not take. It's not only PDF files - I found lots of situations where I was dumped back into metro. :-(
    02-07-2014 10:26 AM
  22. mpt15's Avatar
    I am fully aware that I can do that. But it's another annoying step that I shouldn't have to take, and that many people will not take. It's not only PDF files - I found lots of situations where I was dumped back into metro. :-(
    setting defaults is a one time thing.
    02-07-2014 11:40 AM
  23. jmshub's Avatar
    The thing is that metro is there, and it is going to be there. If you have a serious problem with it, the onus is on you to change the behavior of your PC to not use the metro apps. I don't mind using the metro PDF viewer at all. But I don't like to double-click on images in the Windows shell and launching the metro picture viewer. To me, that is jarring and a little annoying. Therefore, I set the default program for all image files to be the old Windows image viewer. It is just something you need to set the first time on a file by file basis, then you're set.

    I mean, there has to be a default. If you default it to the desktop version, then you're "backtracking on the metro vision". If you default it to the metro app, then they are "forcing metro upon you". There's really no way for it to be perfect out of the box for everyone.
    mpt15 and Laura Knotek like this.
    02-07-2014 11:41 AM
  24. anony_mouse's Avatar
    The thing is that metro is there, and it is going to be there. If you have a serious problem with it, the onus is on you to change the behavior (sic) of your PC to not use the metro apps.
    Well, seems like I will have to switch to Linux. Nice one Steve!

    Btw, it's 'behaviour'.
    02-07-2014 06:16 PM
  25. Markham Ranja's Avatar
    Nah, not afraid. If they were afraid, just sit on their massive money maker in Enterprise and not done a thing different. They went all in on Windows 8 and Windows Phone and the Live Tile experience on XBOX, their Cloud service and their email. This was a gutsy move and they are 100% betting on themselves to make it work.

    Now, confused? Oh yeah, they can't seem to agree on a model to make things work. I am seeing confused as well.
    How can we call this gutsy? If it had been so that they made Windows 8 such that you could not go back to the desktop at all, 100% Metro and only Metro, then yes. This is like they are caught in the middle with no real idea what to do. WP8 is clearly not a focus area as of now, given the glacial rate of updates and adding much-requested features. I can only assume that it's like a side project and not an important thing.
    02-07-2014 08:56 PM
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