05-14-2014 03:55 AM
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  1. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I won't go over everything. As I stated to me it's a confidence thing. I want a company secure in it's thinking. For a company with the rescources MS has to not be able to get devs on board and then rely on an alternative OS for that kind of support I think is pathetic.

    I agree with a5cent that devs just won't bother with WP, why would you? WP users will be considered second class when developling apps on Android. So the expereienc will always be second rate.

    I also agree with a5cent that running Android apps on WP could be problematic, especially for older and low end handsets, WP biggest market currently. Users will start to feel left out and will just switch to Android. Why wouldn't you?

    If MS decides on this path, which currently is only rumour but with the possible release of Nokia X (Normandy) this reality could be closer than we think. All we can do is wait and see. Going by the article posted by WPC it would appear I'm not the only one feeling this would a very big mistake on MS part and they would end up losing users and probably the failure of WP.
    BIGPADDY likes this.
    02-13-2014 06:09 AM
  2. radmanvr's Avatar
    fake
    02-13-2014 07:53 AM
  3. Markham Ranja's Avatar
    If MS decides on this path, which currently is only rumour but with the possible release of Nokia X (Normandy) this reality could be closer than we think. All we can do is wait and see. Going by the article posted by WPC it would appear I'm not the only one feeling this would a very big mistake on MS part and they would end up losing users and probably the failure of WP.
    That's the thing, innit? MS does not want or need you and me and everyone else on WP right now. They are targeting those tens of millions of users who don't use WP or rejected it because it didn't have [INSERT TRENDY APP HERE] or similar reasons. These guys are out there in their millions, and they are who MSFT want on their platform. We may appreciate the delicacies of WP for what it is, but that doesn't bring the users or the developers.
    02-13-2014 09:01 AM
  4. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    What platform would that be if not Apple?
    Maybe Ubuntu phone, that seems like an interesting platform.

    That is *exactly* the point! Why would this be bad, for either users or developers? Unless Google Play access is included (which seems unlikely), Microsoft will still get to decide which applications you can run on *your* hardware.
    Bad ports are bad.

    Why? Is the absence of Android apps the only selling point of WP?
    No, optimized apps are a great thing about WP, though.
    02-13-2014 09:12 AM
  5. a5cent's Avatar
    I would like to know more on this. The only advantage I can see is a better agreement with Google and possible Google services for WP. Other than that I'm at a bit of loss.
    When it comes to tech, it is the geek and nerd class that shape public opinion, but most of them are currently firmly in the Android camp. Unfortunately, MS has consistently failed to give these people something to get really excited about. Something like Cortana is great, but it's only half as effective because Google and Apple have had something similar for ages already. Unfortunately, I don't see WP8.1 providing anything like this either, but I still have hope something will show up on the horizon. I'm mentioning all this because I think MS should first determine how a bit of geek excitement affects WP adoption, because going to the extremes we're discussing in this thread is definitely the much costlier path.

    However, it may turn out that nothing MS can do is sufficient to accelerate WP adoption to the necessary levels. At the current rate of 1% per year, and unrealistically assuming there will be no setbacks, it will take decades before the WP ecosystem becomes self sustaining. I don't know how long WP has to prove itself, but every plan comes with an expiration date. MS may have no choice but to open a second front, which is where this whole Android thing comes in.

    See this.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-13-2014 at 11:34 AM. Reason: Spelling
    tgp and N_LaRUE like this.
    02-13-2014 09:42 AM
  6. tgp's Avatar
    When it comes to tech, it is the geek and nerd class that shape public opinion, but most of them are currently firmly in the Android camp. Unfortunately, MS has consistently failed to give these people something to get really excited about. Something like Cortana is great, but it's only half as effective because Google and Apple have had something similar for ages already. Unfortunately, I don't see WP8.1 providing anything like this either, but I still have hope something will show up on the horizon. I'm mentioning all this because I think MS should first determine how a bit of geek excitement affects WP adoption, because going to the extremes we're discussing in this thread are definitely the much costlier path.

    However, it may turn out that nothing MS can do is sufficient to accelerate WP adoption to the necessarily levels. At the current rate of 1% per year, and unrealistically assuming there will be no setbacks, it will take decades before the WP ecosystem becomes self sustaining. I don't know how long WP has to prove itself, but every plan comes with an expiration date. MS may have no choice but to open a second front, which is where this whole Android thing comes in.

    See this.
    I tend to agree with your view. I'm sure that when Microsoft released WP 3+ years ago, they expected to have a much higher market share than 4% by now. In fact, let's imagine that at WP7's release in 2010 a reporter would have asked if they would consider a 4% market share for WP after 3 years a failure. The answer would've probably been yes (barring the fact that they don't say things like that in public!). This has to be a disappointment. This is probably a desperation move by Microsoft, should it come to fruition.
    02-13-2014 10:08 AM
  7. anon4287986's Avatar
    They feel they're boardline failure. Look at BB. They tried it and they're still tanking.
    Tried it? They did it. BlackBerry has access to virtually every app in the Google Play Store and nearly all of them run flawlessly. BlackBerry isn't "tanking" by the way. Not sure if you follow how the company is doing stock wise or anything but there's no failure to behold there... yet. I love Windows Phones but lets be fair. I completely agree with the rest of your assessment though. The reality is though that consumers first questions when purchasing a Windows phone is "Can I use such and such app on this?" and if the answer is most likely "no" then that may very well be the make or break point for an average consumer. Here in WPC you know the technicalities and culture and progression of WP. It blows my mind how superior it is to Android yet doesn't sell more than it does.
    This how maneuver mimics a knee-jerk reaction and looks like a "tack-on" than anything else. I hope it doesn't happen. Even BB users were underwhelmed when they had access to the Play Store. It's over-hyped.
    02-13-2014 11:25 AM
  8. anon4287986's Avatar
    double post.
    02-13-2014 11:27 AM
  9. pseudoware's Avatar
    I'm wondering if Google is thinking about what can be done to prevent or make it as difficult as possible to port Android apps over to WP.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    02-13-2014 02:32 PM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    I'm wondering if Google is thinking about what can be done to prevent or make it as difficult as possible to port Android apps over to WP.
    Of course they are. They've been at it for years. That is what GSM is about. Of course GSM isn't specifically about WP, but it's a generalized approach to exactly that issue.
    02-13-2014 02:56 PM
  11. rodan01's Avatar
    I won't go over everything. As I stated to me it's a confidence thing. I want a company secure in it's thinking. For a company with the rescources MS has to not be able to get devs on board and then rely on an alternative OS for that kind of support I think is pathetic.

    I agree with a5cent that devs just won't bother with WP, why would you? WP users will be considered second class when developling apps on Android. So the expereienc will always be second rate.

    I also agree with a5cent that running Android apps on WP could be problematic, especially for older and low end handsets, WP biggest market currently. Users will start to feel left out and will just switch to Android. Why wouldn't you?

    If MS decides on this path, which currently is only rumour but with the possible release of Nokia X (Normandy) this reality could be closer than we think. All we can do is wait and see. Going by the article posted by WPC it would appear I'm not the only one feeling this would a very big mistake on MS part and they would end up losing users and probably the failure of WP.
    Google just made an agreement with VMware to run Windows Apps on Chromebooks. Mac users run Windows apps through parallels. Linux users run Windows apps through Wine. Are all the companies in the industry pathetic?

    Devs will still develop with the WP SDK if they have the incentives. Of course Microsoft has to be selective about what apps to accept in the store, Android apps should only fill holes. Big apps used by millions of people in a daily basis should have a distinctive experience in WP. Although Apps only used in a country, in a city, retail or bank apps only used by a few thousands, an app for a school, for a few hundreds of people, those aren't economically viable in WP. So, what do you prefer an Android app or nothing?
    Other incentives could be a bigger share of the revenue for WP apps, more exposure in the store, allow piracy for Android apps.

    HTML5 apps don't follow the WP design guidelines and are becoming more popular. As HTML5 matures more of those small apps will be developed in this tech, and these Apps are less efficient in the use of resources than Android Apps and don't follow ANY design language. At least Android apps would be consistent with other Android apps. You won't get a pure experience in WP neither in the other platforms.

    The Android Dalvik virtual machine is open source, most of the API are open source too. Microsoft has to adapt it to run on top of Windows. This require a lot of resources but is not such a big feat as some people say. If a startup like Jolla or a smaller company like BlackBerry did it, of course Microsoft can do it.

    The culmination of this strategy should be a Metro API on top of the Android SDK so developers could reuse most of their Java code although with a different UI for each platform.
    Last edited by rodan01; 02-13-2014 at 04:08 PM.
    02-13-2014 03:25 PM
  12. 3earnhardt3's Avatar
    I for some reason don't see the same doom and gloom. If android and iOS apps could run on WP8 it would make the perfect phone. Apps should be platform agnostic. Very similar to how xbox/playstation works. First party apps stay on their respective platforms but all third party apps are available to all phones.
    02-13-2014 04:33 PM
  13. dkediger's Avatar
    Of course they are. They've been at it for years. That is what GSM is about. Of course GSM isn't specifically about WP, but it's a generalized approach to exactly that issue.
    Interesting article that popped up on ZDNet:
    Google's Android OEM Requirements/

    While not necessarily relevant to a Nokia/Microsoft fork, as they wouldn't use Google Play services, it is relevant to OEMs who want their handset buyers to access apps from the Google Play Store. Its all or nothing. Its Google top billing. Its Google defaults.

    Starting to sound like Microsoft circa 2000 for Google.
    02-13-2014 05:07 PM
  14. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Of course they are. They've been at it for years. That is what GSM is about. Of course GSM isn't specifically about WP, but it's a generalized approach to exactly that issue.
    I don't want to be a Google apologist (I really am not a Google apologist), but I think that is unfair. GMS (as I will call it, it has several names) is for interfacing to Google's cloud services. Google, like all cloud service companies, controls who can use those services and under what conditions, and they define the APIs towards them. As we increasingly rely on cloud services, we give more and more control to those companies, and will rely more and more on their proprietary interfaces and the terms and conditions they come with. This is a general point that applies to Microsoft services, and services from other corporations, just as much as Google. At least GMS separates the proprietary Google services from the core Android APIs in a clear way.

    I'm sure Google encourages, strongly, developers to use their APIs. And I'm equally sure that Microsoft does the same. That's business. Other systems are available, if you would prefer to use them.
    02-13-2014 05:18 PM
  15. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Interesting article that popped up on ZDNet:
    Google's Android OEM Requirements/

    While not necessarily relevant to a Nokia/Microsoft fork, as they wouldn't use Google Play services, it is relevant to OEMs who want their handset buyers to access apps from the Google Play Store. Its all or nothing. Its Google top billing. Its Google defaults.

    Starting to sound like Microsoft circa 2000 for Google.
    Once again, I don't want to be a Google apologist, but how is this different to what Microsoft do with Windows Phone? Does WP really offer manufacturers more flexibility than this? For example, if I make a Windows Phone, can I use DuckDuckGo as the default search engine?
    02-13-2014 05:22 PM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    Its all or nothing. Its Google top billing. Its Google defaults. Starting to sound like Microsoft circa 2000 for Google.
    Yes, I was aware of that, but thank you nonetheless. In my write-up, where I hypothesized how MS might counter Android, these were exactly the issues I was thinking about when I wrote the following:

    In contrast to Google, MS wouldn't dictate what OEMs may and may not include on their devices. If Samsung wants to replace any one of MS services with their own, they are free to do so.
    We all hated MS for pulling these sorts of things back in the day, well, at least I did. Today, I'm more forgiving. I actually think Google is doing exactly what it must. It's up to MS to find a way to counter that strategy. MS should be well aware of how it works ;-)
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-13-2014 at 05:47 PM.
    dkediger likes this.
    02-13-2014 05:35 PM
  17. dkediger's Avatar
    Once again, I don't want to be a Google apologist, but how is this different to what Microsoft do with Windows Phone? Does WP really offer manufacturers more flexibility than this? For example, if I make a Windows Phone, can I use DuckDuckGo as the default search engine?

    I don't think that Microsoft claims to be a champion and guardian of open source. You know what you get with Microsoft. Google is making a distinction, and drawing hard lines between "official" Google Android and that AOSP stuff. They seem to be intent on diverging the API's, which will force developers to choose which model to target - AOSP or GMS. Yeah, its business tactics, but they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.
    a5cent likes this.
    02-13-2014 05:36 PM
  18. dkediger's Avatar
    We all hated MS for pulling these sorts of things back in the day, well, at least I did. Today, I'm more forgiving. I actually think Google is doing exactly what it must. It's up to MS to find a way to counter that strategy. MS should be well aware of how it works ;-)
    Yeah, I agree. I'd hate to see browser and search elections make a return - even in Android.
    02-13-2014 05:50 PM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    but I think that is unfair.
    I'm not sure I understand you. To me it sounds as if you're saying that it is unfair of me to accuse Google of doing something that everyone in the industry does, or at least has done at some point. That doesn't make sense to me.

    I wouldn't say that is unfair. That is just business, just like you said at the end of your post.

    As I already said, I believe Google is doing what it must do. Google is protecting its turf. Part of that involves shedding Android's open source roots. That is what has been happening for years, and it will continue.
    02-13-2014 06:00 PM
  20. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Yeah, I agree. I'd hate to see browser and search elections make a return - even in Android.
    Just to be clear - are you saying you would hate to see the legally required dialogue box that asked you which browser you wanted to use, or that you would have to see users being able to use the browser of their choice?
    02-13-2014 06:03 PM
  21. anony_mouse's Avatar
    I'm not sure I understand you. To me it sounds as if you're saying that it is unfair of me to accuse Google of doing something that everyone in the industry does, or at least has done at some point. That doesn't make sense to me.

    I wouldn't say that is unfair. That is just business, just like you said at the end of your post.

    As I already said, I believe Google is doing what it must do. Google is protecting its turf. Part of that involves shedding Android's open source roots. That is what has been happening for years, and it will continue.
    What I thought was unfair was the claim that GMS was about Google trying to stop WP from running Android apps. To be honest, I doubt Google give a lot of thought to WP. See your post number 37. I was very specifically replying to that,
    I have worked with this stuff, and actually the Android architecture is quite elegant in this respect. It is very clear which APIs are part of AOSP and which are part of GMS. Any competent developer will know they are using GMS.
    If developers are using GMS more, that is because they are using more cloud services. Like it or not, cloud services tend to be very proprietary, and this is the direction that the industry is taking.
    02-13-2014 06:16 PM
  22. dkediger's Avatar
    The dialog box asking which browser, and search provider. I think the market and consumers in general are astute enough at this point to find and select their own. Ad long as alternatives aren't actively blocked/prevented from being located and installed.
    02-13-2014 06:18 PM
  23. colinkiama's Avatar
    Microsoft should release better APIs instead. Windows Phone with android just isn't windows phone anymore. The elegance and speed from every device will never be the same again :(.
    02-13-2014 06:22 PM
  24. dkediger's Avatar
    .....
    I have worked with this stuff, and actually the Android architecture is quite elegant in this respect. It is very clear which APIs are part of AOSP and which are part of GMS. Any competent developer will know they are using GMS.
    If developers are using GMS more, that is because they are using more cloud services. Like it or not, cloud services tend to be very proprietary, and this is the direction that the industry is taking.
    I think Google could help themselves and clarify their standing by stepping away as the "curator" of AOSP and fall back to "contributor", so to speak.
    02-13-2014 06:31 PM
  25. snowmutt's Avatar
    Why wait till it happens. What then if it happens.

    Will you continue to support MSFT?
    Of course I would continue to support MS. There is very little the idea of "side loaded" apps- or whatever the proper term for this is- would change the way I use my devices.

    However, I would be a little more concerned about security. As tech advances, so do the threats that come with it. Could an app from the Android market threaten the basics of WP security? It is one of those things I do not like about Android. I do not think it is a huge threat, but without Android apps it is a complete "non-threat".
    02-13-2014 07:03 PM
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