MSFT Considering Android Apps For Windows Phones.

shaurya negi

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Also if it even by chance happens,will our phone be able to run it? Specs wise if we see our phone usually have lower ram,less processors and all. It will be buggy right ? Perfect example is bluestacks which is so buggy that it even shows bugs when you use it an i7 processor.
 

N_LaRUE

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Why? Is the absence of Android apps the only selling point of WP?

Just out of curiosity, have you got a WP? Are you using Android? Do you own a smartphone? Are you talking about things with experience? From what I remember you didn't have a smartphone before.

In any case let's discuss. The spec wars are really at an end. We are in the 'user' experience wars now. Apps are king and so is how people use their phone. Your OS and the apps you have available 'must' offer a cohesive experience for the user. People want to feel that their phone offers an enjoyable experience. This is why we have ecosystems of apps and apps specifically designed for the OSs and not just a 'general' app store where you can download apps for whatever OS you run. HTML 5 is trying to do this by the way but most people are not liking the experience. People want apps for their phones.

The WP OS is distintly different than Android. Android is Java based and WP is NT. Though there's nothing wrong with running Java on NT or having that ability, we know, anyone who's used Android, that there are a lot of crap apps out there. That's not to say that WP has excellence all around but it's about intereface and looks. WP apps are made for WP. Android apps feel completely different. As for how they would handle the apps situation, who knows?

As for why I would dump WP the minute MS thought about brinnging Android apps to WP is quite simple. Confidence. To me, this indicates that MS isn't confident in their products. They feel they're boardline failure. Look at BB. They tried it and they're still tanking. If I cannot have confidence that MS can bring the developers in and creat an experience for the phone I bought running their OS, then why should I bother wanting their OS? If I wanted Android I would get Android. If I want iOS I would get that. I don't want something half baked.

I have little doubt that WP would tank the minute they did this. I feel lots of people will feel cheated in the same way I would. We have been waiting for WP8.1 to come out. We want to see things get better. We're being patient and we try our best to be confident that MS knows what it's doing. However, this would shatter that idea completely.

Not only would I dump WP. I would also dump my two laptops and not renew my Office365 account. I would lose total confidence in MS as a company. I've been a user of MS products for more than 20 years. I am excited by their new approach. I like what they are currently doing. However if it goes anywhere near Android, I'm turning completely to Apple. At least they have confidence in their products.
 
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a5cent

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How many developers that were thinking about making a WP app will trash those plans?

Worse, how many native WP apps will get pulled from the store, because the developer decides to service both ecosystems with a single android app?

Furthermore, this is not just about how poorly android apps would fit in with the WP design aesthetic. Apps that were designed to run on Android will never run as efficiently on a different OS. Achieving this feat involves a lot of overhead, putting WP at a disadvantage wherever such apps are involved. The impact would be most felt on low end devices, precisely where the smartphone market is still growing fastest. At least in the eyes of the average consumer, such a move would negate most of the advantages ascribed to WP at the low end.

Finally, this raises the question how much WP must be watered down to make porting easy. If porting is to be easy, then WP must become more compatible with Android APIs. Must WP then allow apps to access our text messages, our contacts, or allow apps to make phone calls? All of that is currently prohibited for security reason, but normal for Android.

On the other hand, I can also see a few very interesting tactics this could allow for, but only if embedded within a much larger strategy that I'm still trying to figure out if it is viable.
 

N_LaRUE

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On the other hand, I can also see a few very interesting tactics this could allow for, but only if embedded within a much larger strategy that I'm still trying to figure out if it is viable.

I would like to know more on this. The only advantage I can see is a better agreement with Google and possible Google services for WP. Other than that I'm at a bit of loss.
 

anony_mouse

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Thanks N_LaRUE and a5cent for interesting posts. Unfortunately I don't have time to reply in detail, but I'll respond to a few points. To save typing, I will assume up front that Microsoft will do this (which actually I strongly doubt), and I want to state one more time that I don't think this is necessarily a good idea - but it does raise a lot of interesting points. I will also assume that Microsoft will provide their own app store, and will not integrate Google Play.

- I do own a smart phone and I have used WP (and all the other major platforms).
- Abandoning Microsoft entirely just because they added support for Android apps to WP seems something of an overreaction. However, it's your choice, of course.
- There are crap apps for Android, iOS and WP. For the most part, I avoid installing them (or remove them quickly afterwards). I'll make one point again - Microsoft will control what Android apps can be installed on WP. They can filter out bad apps if they want to do so.
- Regarding user experience: there might be a trade off between enforcing strong UX requirements, and getting fewer, but more consistent apps; and relaxing them, and getting more, but less consistent apps. That's a choice for Microsoft to make - they can do so because they control the app store.
- I don't agree that Android apps will, in principle, run less efficiently on WP. It will depend on the design and implementation of WP. WP apps run within a virtual machine (my term) based on Silverlight and Android apps within a Dalvik VM. The most obvious (but not only) way to support Android apps is to add a Dalvik VM alongside the Silverlight VM, and to implement the necessary APIs within Dalvik. There are off-the-shelf products available to do this - I would be interested if anyone has experience of how well they work. I don't see any reason why Dalvik would run less efficiently on the Windows NT kernel than it does on Linux. (*)
- Regarding app permissions - again, a decision for Microsoft. Yes, Android apps can access e.g. text messages and can make phone calls, but not many do so. In fact, most that request the permission could live without it - such as Facebook. You will exclude certain types of app such as alternative dialers and messaging clients, but that's not a big loss.
- The limitations and issues discussed in this thread will apply: http://forums.windowscentral.com/ot...ust-kill-windows-phone-fork-android-geez.html Many apps will still require some porting, and developers will still have to submit their apps to Microsoft.

(*) A few comments on this approach - assuming apps using both VMs can run simultaneously, there may be some overhead. I don't know whether an app running in either Dalvik or Silverlight gets a full, independent instance of the VM (in which case, there's not much overhead), or whether all apps running in the VM share some resources (in which case, there will be overhead).
Also, if a suitable off-the-it Dalvik VM + API implementation is not available, it will take *a lot* of effort to implement it from scratch.
 

N_LaRUE

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I won't go over everything. As I stated to me it's a confidence thing. I want a company secure in it's thinking. For a company with the rescources MS has to not be able to get devs on board and then rely on an alternative OS for that kind of support I think is pathetic.

I agree with a5cent that devs just won't bother with WP, why would you? WP users will be considered second class when developling apps on Android. So the expereienc will always be second rate.

I also agree with a5cent that running Android apps on WP could be problematic, especially for older and low end handsets, WP biggest market currently. Users will start to feel left out and will just switch to Android. Why wouldn't you?

If MS decides on this path, which currently is only rumour but with the possible release of Nokia X (Normandy) this reality could be closer than we think. All we can do is wait and see. Going by the article posted by WPC it would appear I'm not the only one feeling this would a very big mistake on MS part and they would end up losing users and probably the failure of WP.
 

Markham Ranja

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If MS decides on this path, which currently is only rumour but with the possible release of Nokia X (Normandy) this reality could be closer than we think. All we can do is wait and see. Going by the article posted by WPC it would appear I'm not the only one feeling this would a very big mistake on MS part and they would end up losing users and probably the failure of WP.

That's the thing, innit? MS does not want or need you and me and everyone else on WP right now. They are targeting those tens of millions of users who don't use WP or rejected it because it didn't have [INSERT TRENDY APP HERE] or similar reasons. These guys are out there in their millions, and they are who MSFT want on their platform. We may appreciate the delicacies of WP for what it is, but that doesn't bring the users or the developers.
 

Michael Alan Goff

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What platform would that be if not Apple?

Maybe Ubuntu phone, that seems like an interesting platform.

That is *exactly* the point! Why would this be bad, for either users or developers? Unless Google Play access is included (which seems unlikely), Microsoft will still get to decide which applications you can run on *your* hardware.

Bad ports are bad.

Why? Is the absence of Android apps the only selling point of WP?

No, optimized apps are a great thing about WP, though.
 

a5cent

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I would like to know more on this. The only advantage I can see is a better agreement with Google and possible Google services for WP. Other than that I'm at a bit of loss.

When it comes to tech, it is the geek and nerd class that shape public opinion, but most of them are currently firmly in the Android camp. Unfortunately, MS has consistently failed to give these people something to get really excited about. Something like Cortana is great, but it's only half as effective because Google and Apple have had something similar for ages already. Unfortunately, I don't see WP8.1 providing anything like this either, but I still have hope something will show up on the horizon. I'm mentioning all this because I think MS should first determine how a bit of geek excitement affects WP adoption, because going to the extremes we're discussing in this thread is definitely the much costlier path.

However, it may turn out that nothing MS can do is sufficient to accelerate WP adoption to the necessary levels. At the current rate of 1% per year, and unrealistically assuming there will be no setbacks, it will take decades before the WP ecosystem becomes self sustaining. I don't know how long WP has to prove itself, but every plan comes with an expiration date. MS may have no choice but to open a second front, which is where this whole Android thing comes in.

See this.
 
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tgp

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When it comes to tech, it is the geek and nerd class that shape public opinion, but most of them are currently firmly in the Android camp. Unfortunately, MS has consistently failed to give these people something to get really excited about. Something like Cortana is great, but it's only half as effective because Google and Apple have had something similar for ages already. Unfortunately, I don't see WP8.1 providing anything like this either, but I still have hope something will show up on the horizon. I'm mentioning all this because I think MS should first determine how a bit of geek excitement affects WP adoption, because going to the extremes we're discussing in this thread are definitely the much costlier path.

However, it may turn out that nothing MS can do is sufficient to accelerate WP adoption to the necessarily levels. At the current rate of 1% per year, and unrealistically assuming there will be no setbacks, it will take decades before the WP ecosystem becomes self sustaining. I don't know how long WP has to prove itself, but every plan comes with an expiration date. MS may have no choice but to open a second front, which is where this whole Android thing comes in.

See this.

I tend to agree with your view. I'm sure that when Microsoft released WP 3+ years ago, they expected to have a much higher market share than 4% by now. In fact, let's imagine that at WP7's release in 2010 a reporter would have asked if they would consider a 4% market share for WP after 3 years a failure. The answer would've probably been yes (barring the fact that they don't say things like that in public!). This has to be a disappointment. This is probably a desperation move by Microsoft, should it come to fruition.
 

anon4287986

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They feel they're boardline failure. Look at BB. They tried it and they're still tanking.
Tried it? They did it. BlackBerry has access to virtually every app in the Google Play Store and nearly all of them run flawlessly. BlackBerry isn't "tanking" by the way. Not sure if you follow how the company is doing stock wise or anything but there's no failure to behold there... yet. I love Windows Phones but lets be fair. I completely agree with the rest of your assessment though. The reality is though that consumers first questions when purchasing a Windows phone is "Can I use such and such app on this?" and if the answer is most likely "no" then that may very well be the make or break point for an average consumer. Here in WPC you know the technicalities and culture and progression of WP. It blows my mind how superior it is to Android yet doesn't sell more than it does.
This how maneuver mimics a knee-jerk reaction and looks like a "tack-on" than anything else. I hope it doesn't happen. Even BB users were underwhelmed when they had access to the Play Store. It's over-hyped.
 

pseudoware

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I'm wondering if Google is thinking about what can be done to prevent or make it as difficult as possible to port Android apps over to WP.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 

a5cent

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I'm wondering if Google is thinking about what can be done to prevent or make it as difficult as possible to port Android apps over to WP.

Of course they are. They've been at it for years. That is what GSM is about. Of course GSM isn't specifically about WP, but it's a generalized approach to exactly that issue.
 

rodan01

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I won't go over everything. As I stated to me it's a confidence thing. I want a company secure in it's thinking. For a company with the rescources MS has to not be able to get devs on board and then rely on an alternative OS for that kind of support I think is pathetic.

I agree with a5cent that devs just won't bother with WP, why would you? WP users will be considered second class when developling apps on Android. So the expereienc will always be second rate.

I also agree with a5cent that running Android apps on WP could be problematic, especially for older and low end handsets, WP biggest market currently. Users will start to feel left out and will just switch to Android. Why wouldn't you?

If MS decides on this path, which currently is only rumour but with the possible release of Nokia X (Normandy) this reality could be closer than we think. All we can do is wait and see. Going by the article posted by WPC it would appear I'm not the only one feeling this would a very big mistake on MS part and they would end up losing users and probably the failure of WP.

Google just made an agreement with VMware to run Windows Apps on Chromebooks. Mac users run Windows apps through parallels. Linux users run Windows apps through Wine. Are all the companies in the industry pathetic?

Devs will still develop with the WP SDK if they have the incentives. Of course Microsoft has to be selective about what apps to accept in the store, Android apps should only fill holes. Big apps used by millions of people in a daily basis should have a distinctive experience in WP. Although Apps only used in a country, in a city, retail or bank apps only used by a few thousands, an app for a school, for a few hundreds of people, those aren't economically viable in WP. So, what do you prefer an Android app or nothing?
Other incentives could be a bigger share of the revenue for WP apps, more exposure in the store, allow piracy for Android apps.

HTML5 apps don't follow the WP design guidelines and are becoming more popular. As HTML5 matures more of those small apps will be developed in this tech, and these Apps are less efficient in the use of resources than Android Apps and don't follow ANY design language. At least Android apps would be consistent with other Android apps. You won't get a pure experience in WP neither in the other platforms.

The Android Dalvik virtual machine is open source, most of the API are open source too. Microsoft has to adapt it to run on top of Windows. This require a lot of resources but is not such a big feat as some people say. If a startup like Jolla or a smaller company like BlackBerry did it, of course Microsoft can do it.

The culmination of this strategy should be a Metro API on top of the Android SDK so developers could reuse most of their Java code although with a different UI for each platform.
 
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3earnhardt3

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I for some reason don't see the same doom and gloom. If android and iOS apps could run on WP8 it would make the perfect phone. Apps should be platform agnostic. Very similar to how xbox/playstation works. First party apps stay on their respective platforms but all third party apps are available to all phones.
 

dkediger

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Of course they are. They've been at it for years. That is what GSM is about. Of course GSM isn't specifically about WP, but it's a generalized approach to exactly that issue.

Interesting article that popped up on ZDNet:
Google's Android OEM Requirements/

While not necessarily relevant to a Nokia/Microsoft fork, as they wouldn't use Google Play services, it is relevant to OEMs who want their handset buyers to access apps from the Google Play Store. Its all or nothing. Its Google top billing. Its Google defaults.

Starting to sound like Microsoft circa 2000 for Google.
 

anony_mouse

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Of course they are. They've been at it for years. That is what GSM is about. Of course GSM isn't specifically about WP, but it's a generalized approach to exactly that issue.

I don't want to be a Google apologist (I really am not a Google apologist), but I think that is unfair. GMS (as I will call it, it has several names) is for interfacing to Google's cloud services. Google, like all cloud service companies, controls who can use those services and under what conditions, and they define the APIs towards them. As we increasingly rely on cloud services, we give more and more control to those companies, and will rely more and more on their proprietary interfaces and the terms and conditions they come with. This is a general point that applies to Microsoft services, and services from other corporations, just as much as Google. At least GMS separates the proprietary Google services from the core Android APIs in a clear way.

I'm sure Google encourages, strongly, developers to use their APIs. And I'm equally sure that Microsoft does the same. That's business. Other systems are available, if you would prefer to use them.
 

anony_mouse

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Interesting article that popped up on ZDNet:
Google's Android OEM Requirements/

While not necessarily relevant to a Nokia/Microsoft fork, as they wouldn't use Google Play services, it is relevant to OEMs who want their handset buyers to access apps from the Google Play Store. Its all or nothing. Its Google top billing. Its Google defaults.

Starting to sound like Microsoft circa 2000 for Google.

Once again, I don't want to be a Google apologist, but how is this different to what Microsoft do with Windows Phone? Does WP really offer manufacturers more flexibility than this? For example, if I make a Windows Phone, can I use DuckDuckGo as the default search engine?
 

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