Can Microsoft Ever Recover? Windows 8, Windows Phone, Xbox One, Surface, etc.

Originally Posted by Saksham Sharma

umm.. In India if you buy a surface 2 pro, with under 100gb useable storage, it costs about INR 57,000. Dont talk about RT, it just wont work for most stuff in india. For INR 60,000 you get a hp laptop with 8GB ram, 2GB graphics, i5 processor, for all your needs. For people on limited budgets (who comprise 90% of laptop/tablet users), that isn't a fair deal. I know a laptop and a tab cant be compared, but still, i was just giving an idea of how overpriced it is.
MS stuff is expensive by developing countries standards, where a person earning 20-30 thousand USD an year is considered very affluent.

Here we get good android tablets with powerful gaming prowess for INR 10,000 approx. I'd rather buy a INR 50,000 high end laptop and a INR 10,000 tab than a surface pro.

P.s. Dont get me wrong, I'm a big MS fan and a android hater too.. I wouldn't buy a lagdroid tab, instead i'd keep my win8 laptop and buy a new windows phone when i replace my 520..

That's roughly 950$, which is technically less than you'd get it in the US. Computers in general are expensive. Also, you have to think about the extra cost of the touch screen, the pen support, the fact that they made it thin and light, and so forth. When it comes to these things, you're paying for form as well as the computer itself.

I really like the idea of a Windows Phone MINI Version , like the Mini version of the "Surface" like you're calling it... it's a great idea, Lumia Surface and Lumia Surface Mini ... both having great specs like 8 mpx camera for mini and 16 mp for the Surface, and then then Surface X with some impressive 41 mpx? (or maybe even having the phablet model for this device) , and like you said, something that competes with Moto G, with front facing camera, and flash... if we look at the 630, it has no flash and no front facing camera, that's as annoying as the oudated software we're just about to get with 8.1, if they did their best it'd be amazing to inf fact see, at least 2 devices running on all carriers properly ... it's so sad :(

Originally Posted by Mihir Kandoi

I hate to say it but Microsoft literally has no future. They came late in everything and people have set themselves in Google and apple ecosystems, hell they don't even want to look at a different OS. Only a miracle like a great marketing technique or if Apple or Google do something very very stupid can only save Microsoft. As far as financials are concerned, Microsoft will continue to rise, they have a hell lot more resources than we think. Thnx to the person who opened this thread, really interesting topic.

I can save Microsoft, if they do as I say.. :-P

I hate to say it; but Microsoft may have waited too long to do a lot of things. The 520 was a great idea and worked very well for awhile. But Android OEM's weren't going to wait for it to take the market. They started comming out with phones in its class and even a little better for the same money. Nokia responded with the 630 and 635; but its not much of a response. And the mid phones were just completely forgotten by Nokia and no real replacement for the 920 until it was also too late and hardly available anywhere.

I got a 820 for myself about 8 months ago, then I got my wife a 925 (great phone) a month ago. I bought us each a 520 for backup just in case. I see nothing to replace my 820 in the future. I like it has the guts of the 9XX series; but has a SD card, removeable battery, dual band wifi, 5 antennas instead of two like on the 9XX series, wireless charging etc. Its a great phone and I have a 64GB sd card in it for great storage. Its also a 1/2 inch smaller than the 9XX phones; but has a screen that is only .2 of an inch smaller. I have a feeling we will never see a replacement for it or the 7XX series (also a good phone).

I hope Microsoft gets it in gear pretty soon. I've done my part by purchasing 4 WP8 phones and I push the line whenever I can. I thought things were getting better then this last quarter was a bomb shell. Now everyone is in the smartphone business, even Amazon (I have two Kindle Fires). I just hope they did not wait too long to get things going.

Nokia posts Q1 interim report, handset sales down 30 percent | Windows Phone Central

I can't say I'm that surprised. The dip is a culmination of several different problems.

- 8.1 still not released through carriers
- No high-end 4-4.7 inch handsets
- Better low end handsets from competitors
- Nokia deal closing several months late
- Which lead to lukewarm advertising of Lumia handsets
- Limited devices available on non-AT&T carriers
- The slow death of feature phones

Hopefully things can improve now that Microsoft is in charge. Their massively superior bank account means Microsoft can offer better low-end devices at similar price points. Having Nokia's software team should improve development time and push out new apps/updates faster. Microsoft can (and should) start another multi-billion dollar marketing campaign. And with Nokia's manufacturing plants, Microsoft could even entice other OEMs by offering to produce WP handsets for them. I'm not sure what Microsoft can do about the carriers being overly selective (especially Verizon and Sprint). I would suggest Microsoft expand their offerings on smaller carriers and build from there. As for feature phones, that's a market that might never recover.

Originally Posted by fdalbor

I hate to say it; but Microsoft may have waited too long to do a lot of things. The 520 was a great idea and worked very well for awhile. But Android OEM's weren't going to wait for it to take the market. They started comming out with phones in its class and even a little better for the same money. Nokia responded with the 630 and 635; but its not much of a response. And the mid phones were just completely forgotten by Nokia and no real replacement for the 920 until it was also too late and hardly available anywhere.

I got a 820 for myself about 8 months ago, then I got my wife a 925 (great phone) a month ago. I bought us each a 520 for backup just in case. I see nothing to replace my 820 in the future. I like it has the guts of the 9XX series; but has a SD card, removeable battery, dual band wifi, 5 antennas instead of two like on the 9XX series, wireless charging etc. Its a great phone and I have a 64GB sd card in it for great storage. Its also a 1/2 smaller than the 9XX phones; but has a screen that is only .2 of an inch smaller. I have a feeling we will never see a replacement for it or the 7XX series (also a good phone).

I hope Microsoft gets it in gear pretty soon. I've done my part by purchasing 4 WP8 phones and I push the line whenever I can. I thought things were getting better then this last quarter was a bomb shell. Now everyone is in the smartphone business, even Amazon (I have two Kindle Fires). I just hope they did not wait too long to get things going.

true.. They didn't push out the mid range segment, and are losing out badly. We really need a 720/820 successor now, as android users wont ever switch to dual core 1.2/1.5ghz because they don't know that these specs are still great for wp.

After these numbers I think the best prospect for "Microsoft Mobile" is the Nokia X. Microsoft needs devices to distribute their services, if the people wants android then they have to give them Android.
Without services Windows Phone is dead, the OS is free, the only way to recover the investment is making money from services. If the Nokia X is successful Windows Phone could survive as a parasite, and maybe flourish in the future with better conditions.

Originally Posted by Saksham Sharma

true.. They didn't push out the mid range segment, and are losing out badly. We really need a 720/820 successor now, as android users wont ever switch to dual core 1.2/1.5ghz because they don't know that these specs are still great for wp.

It`s not the midrange because all WP`s outside the ATIV SE, Lumia Icon, 930, and 1520 are midrange. It`s that there is not a wide availability of high end handsets and the lack of some apps (I know this get`s repeated but it`s true). The Icon, ATIV, and 1520 are carrier exclusives and no will jump ship to a device no on their carrier when you have high end devices running Android available from all carriers. The M8, S5, Note 3, Moto X, G2, and even the Nexus 5 (can be had on 3/4 big carriers) have much larger availability than any high end WP device right now.

Originally Posted by Saksham Sharma

true.. They didn't push out the mid range segment, and are losing out badly. We really need a 720/820 successor now, as android users wont ever switch to dual core 1.2/1.5ghz because they don't know that these specs are still great for wp.

Being that most of Android is located in the developing world, I'm not sure that most Android users even know what "dual-core 1.2 Ghz" even means.

Originally Posted by Jas00555

Being that most of Android is located in the developing world, I'm not sure that most Android users even know what "dual-core 1.2 Ghz" even means.

But they have a relative idea, most consumers know that the more cores and the higher the numbers the apparent "better" it is. My problem with Microsoft is lack of clarity and judgement amongst consumers. Most consumers skip WP because (in Android's case) higher specs are better and since iOS doesn't offer as much hardware variety they see WP as inferior because of the hardware, without realising the optimisation behind it. My friends who have GS4s often tease me over my 1020 and it's dual-core processor, but yet their phones always crash and reboot doing things. It's consumer ignorance and them being misinformed. I have a friend who has a Surface RT and hates it. Why? She doesn't like Windows 8. Why? Because it's hard to use. Why? Because it's DIFFERENT. MS never really did enough on how to use Windows 8/WP8, or made it easy to transition from a different OS/old Windows to Windows/WP8 from a UX standpoint.

I think they need to differentiate from everyone else (which they need to do after catching up in the WP8.1 update) in terms of features, advertise more about what's so great about the MS ecosystem BECAUSE of these differences (when I'm using OneNote w/ the pen in class people always go wow over it) and also more advertising over how to use Windows with a few SIMPLE RULES. People atm seem to think Windows 8 is complicated and tricky

I love how everyone sees mobile as the be all end all for a company to thrive. Will Microsoft ever reach a Windows style dominance on the mobile side? Almost certainly not, I doubt even Android will ever reach the 95% + market share range. But Surface has had a huge boost in revenue, and while the XB1 isn't selling as well as the PS4 it is still selling well. I think a lot of people have no clue how many markets Microsoft is in, it puts most of the other "big" competitors to shame, its just that most of those markets are enterprise specific.

Originally Posted by chinesepiratefood

I love how everyone sees mobile as the be all end all for a company to thrive. Will Microsoft ever reach a Windows style dominance on the mobile side? Almost certainly not, I doubt even Android will ever reach the 95% + market share range. But Surface has had a huge boost in revenue, and while the XB1 isn't selling as well as the PS4 it is still selling well. I think a lot of people have no clue how many markets Microsoft is in, it puts most of the other "big" competitors to shame, its just that most of those markets are enterprise specific.

Because Microsoft is so diversified they can of course thrive without mobile. But there is no denying the fact mobile is the future. Why do you think various companies and services put emphasis on mobile apps? They know they can have a lot of users that way. Mobile is what is driving Samsung`s growth. Have you looked at their numbers? They made over $30 billion dollars from mobile alone this past quarter. That speaks volumes of how valuable mobile can be.

Complicated and tricky cause pseudo tech-journos flooded the net with misinformation and ill will opinion about the new look. So perception mounted and the Horribly awful commercials that said absolutely nothing about the system at all.



Lets dance and make a bunch of clicking sounds and look like we are having fun. It was about the most amazingly stupid thing any CEO could have allowed to ever happen.



They do need a stronger campaign to show what all these devices do together.



There were a couple but they were aired far less than the others.



They definitely need to spend more money on advertising, but properly. I am not so sure MS knows exactly how to market the new line yet.



What I will say, is my Icon is a friggin solid as hell device. Had to reboot a couple of times, but not many. And apps don't crash. Heck, none of my WIN8 devices do, period.

Imo windows phone adverts sometimes don't show real world benefits. I admit there several "critical" flaws when its comes to productivity or rather attachments but in this day and age we should be sharing links instead as it makes collaboration so much easier and you don't several versions of the same document floating around. I can tell you this archaic way has been the bane of my life for the past several years.

Originally Posted by anony_mouse

I haven't checked these numbers independently, but assuming they are correct, there is one very clear conclusion...
Microsoft products are MASSIVELY MASSIVELY overpriced.

You might think the iPhone is expensive, but in comparison, it's nothing. I suggest that we ALL boycott ALL Microsoft products until they reduce the prices by at least 50%. That will still leave them with an acceptable profit.

Wow you really have no idea about anything, maybe you should go to school and learn something useful.

Microsoft is mainly in the software and service industry, Apple is mainly in the hardwares. The two industry's margins differ greatly, with different business models. In terms of hardwares, Apple has higher margin than all the other computer and phone manufacturers while producing product of equal or lower spec, hence overpriced. Microsoft products are generally inline with other software makers (you know, like Adobe Photoshop, AutoCAD, etc), hence fairly priced by industry standard.

Two, lowering price will not have an "acceptable profit". Higher profit = better, same for all industry anywhere. Why has MSFT stock not changed much over the years? Because the profit is barely acceptable for shareholders (which include your average joe investors as well). Why did Apple stock soar since 2007? Because the profit is great! Why is the profit for Apple great? Because they have higher margin than their competitors.

Every single one of your post is filled with ignorance and immaturity, talking about stuff that you obviously have no knowledge in.

I need WP to not die:(

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I'll be sad if they go android :(

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They are not going Android.

If MS does that they will lose all credibility, it would further damage their image.

They aren't that stupid

They are going to do both, AOSP and WP. The need more people using their services, the need scale to make them profitable, so they need Android. Without services WP is dead.

Originally Posted by rodan01

They are going to do both, AOSP and WP. The need more people using their services, the need scale to make them profitable, so they need Android. Without services WP is dead.

No. Microsoft will not and should not use Android. If you suggested this back in 2012/early 2013 maybe I would agree with you. But WP is the now the third OS worldwide. Microsoft has money and patience, they can make WP successful without Android.

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Since we knew the potential of Microsoft and pleasure in using a windows phone, we must not hesitate to spread the word to our friends using other platforms so that a day comes when majority people learns about windows. Im the 1st amongst my friends to use windows phone lumia and now many of friends and even my bro are shifting to Windows. Many people are bored using android and they want a new feel, windows offers a premium feel n look.

Originally Posted by Mihir Kandoi

I hate to say it but Microsoft literally has no future. They came late in everything and people have set themselves in Google and apple ecosystems, hell they don't even want to look at a different OS. Only a miracle like a great marketing technique or if Apple or Google do something very very stupid can only save Microsoft. As far as financials are concerned, Microsoft will continue to rise, they have a hell lot more resources than we think. Thnx to the person who opened this thread, really interesting topic.

Atleast android can fail due to lag nd hang in low end.this can push customer to wp 8.1 ecosystem..I here only talk about only low end or mid end not high end it is Apple territory which cannot be conquered.

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Actually Apple has been losing market share YoY, if the kantar numbers for instance are anything to go by.

Also just saw on bbc news that blackberry are announcing a low cost device exclusively for Indonesia.

I do think MS can recover it is just some of their decisions have been baffling lately... Well lets see what Lumia Cyan brings. I'm not holding my breath for HTC or Samsung to add any additional value to the 8.1 update.

Originally Posted by TechFreak1

Actually Apple has been losing market share YoY, if the kantar numbers for instance are anything to go by.

I don't know if it'll make a huge marketshare dent but Apple's upcoming large screen phones will definitely make a killing in the market. They've maxed out their existing user base and are coming around with a new pass at them.

Originally Posted by Mike Gibson

I don't know if it'll make a huge marketshare dent but Apple's upcoming large screen phones will definitely make a killing in the market. They've maxed out their existing user base and are coming around with a new pass at them.

Yeah android flagship will lose to apple iphone 6 because of that huge screen 4.7 inches though 5 inch would have been icing on the cake.

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Originally Posted by Mike Gibson

I don't know if it'll make a huge marketshare dent but Apple's upcoming large screen phones will definitely make a killing in the market. They've maxed out their existing user base and are coming around with a new pass at them.

And if they really do a big screened device they may sway some millions of Android owners who use Android devices for the bigger screen. This fall will be a very interesting time in the smartphone market. I am personally getting another Moto X (mines broke) and then I will get a Moto G for games. Then I will get a Moto 360 to round it out. Heck, I may get a Moto E just to have the whole family.

But back on topic, Apple will definitely take a bite of Android and WP if the rumors are true.

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But it still android will have huge market share due to Moto e type of smartphones.

Originally Posted by prasath1234

But it still android will have huge market share due to Moto e type of smartphones.

Android does have the low end on lock, but the iPhone 6 will challenge everyone on the high end this fall.

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I think if you were to use one word to describe Microsoft recently it would be "Late"

They were Late to the mobile phone market - although rather bizarrely they were actually early to smartphones with Windows Mobile, but then managed to destroy that market share by scrapping the original windows mobile 6 in favor of Windows Mobile 7, and then again by moving to Windows Mobile 8.

Tablets. Again, a market that they were early to, but when the ipad came along they took nearly 3 years to come out with a rival product to go up against it (and don't even get me started on what went wrong there - $$$ and Windows RT)

Cortana. Again, late to the party, although it seems as though Cortana might actually be fashionably late and wearing a prettier dress than Siri.

XBox. Not technically late, as it launched at pretty much the same time as it's rival, it's pre-launch marketing was a shambles and some U-Turns happened too late in the day to prevent the slightly dampened launch.

Windows 8. Windows 8 is a technically very advanced operating system, but it was let down by it's poor user experience at launch. Finally Microsoft have listened to people and starting to change things with updates 8.1.1.1.1.1, but maybe it's just too late to save the 8 brand and a wholesome new "9" might be the only way out of this marketing pickle

Windows RT. The evil b*stard twin of Windows 8 which shares all of the annoying traits and none of the good ones. It's a stupid stupid idea that should have never seen the light of day, and it should be put to sleep asap before it's too late. If MS want to persist in trying to sell us fondleslabs, why not scale up windows phone instead rather than scaling down full fat windows.

Believe it or not I'm a big fan of Microsoft and Windows and have been using Windows for 15 years as a developer and have bought original XBox, 360 and Bone, so I really want MS to succeed.
For me the biggest appeal of Microsoft products has been the flexibility and compatibility, but in recent years it's like they're trying to ape Apple's success by directly copying everything they do (closed systems, app stores, controlling hardware specs etc) and it's just not working.

Go back to what you're good at and stop trying to control everything.

But apple iPhone 6 will only sale well in us where people buy phone in contract.in countries where people buy by paying outright price.iPhones will be hardly selling.

Microsoft doesn't have to "recover".

What if I told you Microsoft can still be selling their products without having to be number 1 all the time.

Why is everyone under the illusion that Microsoft is not successful?

Originally Posted by radmanvr

Microsoft doesn't have to "recover".

What if I told you Microsoft can still be selling their products without having to be number 1 all the time.

Why is everyone under the illusion that Microsoft is not successful?

Its not that they aren't successful, its the fact how successful they are now can't sustain for that long. They have to do more and that's where the problem lays. WP has slow growth, enterprise is BYOD in a lot of places, and being business and enterprise only isn't a good business move (see BlackBerry for proof) so what do open to do next? What new and exciting do they have coming? Those are the questions. Apple is conservative, and Google is just future forward. What is Microsoft?

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I personally think Windows and Xbox are not in any bad situation. On the other hand Windows phone is in a dire situation - games app, music app, not working live tiles - you would thing a product that will ship on a phone in 3 days will be much more polished. They are late to the party, and they are show to catch up - I honestly think Joe belfiore should be fired

Originally Posted by radmanvr

Microsoft doesn't have to "recover". What if I told you Microsoft can still be selling their products without having to be number 1 all the time. Why is everyone under the illusion that Microsoft is not successful?

The concern is that MSFT is killing their core platform of 1.5 billion users by making horrible decisions. Idiotic things like putting Metro on big screens, throwing millions of manhours of Win32 developer experience by introducing the incompatible WinRT API, the incredibly idiotic design of some of the WinRT API, etc.

MSFT is coasting on previous success. They swallowed the WinRT/Metro poison pill ... it just hasn't started kicking in yet. Remember those movies where the main character discovers he was poisoned and only has 24 hours to live?

Originally Posted by Mike Gibson

The concern is that MSFT is killing their core platform of 1.5 billion users by making horrible decisions. Idiotic things like putting Metro on big screens, throwing millions of manhours of Win32 developer experience by introducing the incompatible WinRT API, the incredibly idiotic design of some of the WinRT API, etc.

MSFT is coasting on previous success. They swallowed the WinRT/Metro poison pill ... it just hasn't started kicking in yet. Remember those movies where the main character discovers he was poisoned and only has 24 hours to live?

This is what NY thought is as well. The bulk of their money is from previous stuff before Windows 8. They can take the slow money from Windows 8 and WP8 for now, but how much longer, when they are expected to receive even more competition. ChromeOS is getting backed by Intel and expect to have core i3+ Chrome books soon, Android keeps becoming more successful and Apple is still raking in all the money, Samsung is the biggest smartphone manufacturer on the planet and lists profits are second only to Apple. Competition is getting fierce.

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I own some MS products and I am quite happy with them although there are things that could get much better such as: Nokia phones to have much more quality inside. There are too many issues because faulty firmware or hw, just too many. Wp8.1 needs lots of fixes until public release.
I was using iphone and a S4 before jumping to 1520 and I do not regret it. I am using onedrive, outlook email, I have a xbox360 and planning to buy a surface rt tablet although I already own an ipad air which is great. Regarding PS3 or 4, well let's say I don't trust Sony's optical drives and their online service security. As a notebook I oen a macbook pro because it's much more reliable. So there it is, I have products from 2 competitors, it's just the way of personal choice everyone has. And no, MS won't die :) Iphone has great quality build, secured and fluid OS but screen size is a problem for me plus that I cannot freely choose between 2g-3g-4g bands. Android is too much malware vulnerable and fragmented despite it's personalizable concept. The only thing I would ask MS to do is to be more carefull with wp bugs and now with Nokia phones to avoid issues that would drive users away

Out of everything I say and anyone else says I can only say all this competition is tech is only going to let the consumers win. Every high end phone so far this year looks good and have modern internals, smartphone market is bugger than ever and the RAC to the bottom has phone like the Moto G and E coming out with the OnePlus One coming soon. Its a fantastic time to be a techie, so many choices.

Also, regardless of what is said the only company doing poorly is BlackBerry everyone else looks to have a good 2014. Can't wait to see what new WP8.1 smart phones hit and what new laptops will come out.

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MS has done a poor job in relating fully the capabilities of a Win8.x Pro Tablet for business.

When people start getting further into BYOD, sorry, ChromeOS and iPads aren't going to cut it.
When you need certain full desktop software to run certain things, You aren't going to be doing that on those platforms.
Surface Pro's and Pro Tablets running Windows 8.X Pro are where they will be.
I am seeing this happen personally.

Sure, you will have some that will buy those devices (ChromeOS and iPad's)
When business starts to realize they can carry one Tablet, instead of a Laptop and a Tablet.
Or dock their tablet on a desk and then take it with them and have full desktop support.
You will see Win8.x Pro Tablets start to take a bigger share.

For consumers, again, spending the money on a Surface type tablet running Win8.x Pro, is just as good or better than
owning a desktop and a Crippled ChromeBook or iPad, and trying to go out and do all the stuff you might want to do on your Desktop

However, I will say that there is a large majority of people who are nothing more than consumers of content, true
Many of them jump on the cheap crap and believe they are satisfied, in reality, show them what a real Tablet can do
and the cost savings in general, and you could see that change.

That's the take I want to give out.

In true unadulterated real reality, people will go for the cheap crap believing they are saving money, when in the long run, they are actually spending 4 times the amount.

But the advantages of a Win8.x Pro Tablet are enormous compared to the others.

Can MS Recover? Yes, and they are.

Many of the people who read, heard, have seen Windows 8 and the GUI and were turned off by it are actually
liking it once they actually start using it.

And to say one hates Windows 8 but have no issues using an iPad or ChromeBook, says a lot more about them than anything else.
The word hypocrite comes to mind pretty dang easily.

I think its because I do not understand wall street, stocks, and corporation but I feel like Microsoft should be allowed to operate as a mid tier company and not have to be pushed to be number 1.

I don't think it has anything to do with being number one. I think people miss what they are trying to achieve and dismiss them as being to late, and then say they are done. Been said many times already in the past. MS isn't going anywhere, and they really don't have much to recover from. Win 8 was a misstep in GUI design, but the concept is solid, to say otherwise is disingenuous.

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They are getting there. Time and patience is the goal, unfortunately people are flawed and want things now instead of waiting. I think by this holiday season there will be quite a few good choices in the mobile space with WP at the front. We already know what Android flagships are coming and we already know the iPhone is getting bigger.

Originally Posted by Tepid

<Lots of text snipped>And to say one hates Windows 8 but have no issues using an iPad or ChromeBook, says a lot more about them than anything else.
The word hypocrite comes to mind pretty dang easily.

I started writing a reply to this post, but lost the enthusiasm after a few sentences. Anyway, it can be summarised as this: people who have a different opinion to you about technology products are not necessarily idiots. Your post suggests you have difficulties understanding other people's points of view and accepting that their needs, desires, experience and opinions may be different to your own.

BTW, don't underestimate the Chromebook. I didn't see the point of them myself until I borrowed one for a few days recently. They are really quite good - super fast, easy to use, cheap and much improved. If you want a cheap laptop, they are well worth considering. It wouldn't replace my Linux desktop just yet, but it was a fine addition.

Originally Posted by anony_mouse

I started writing a reply to this post, but lost the enthusiasm after a few sentences. Anyway, it can be summarised as this: people who have a different opinion to you about technology products are not necessarily idiots. Your post suggests you have difficulties understanding other people's points of view and accepting that their needs, desires, experience and opinions may be different to your own.

BTW, don't underestimate the Chromebook. I didn't see the point of them myself until I borrowed one for a few days recently. They are really quite good - super fast, easy to use, cheap and much improved. If you want a cheap laptop, they are well worth considering. It wouldn't replace my Linux desktop just yet, but it was a fine addition.

A) You missed the point of his post
B) You should start telling the average consumer about the greatness of the Chromebook. Not many are buying it.

Originally Posted by anony_mouse

I started writing a reply to this post, but lost the enthusiasm after a few sentences. Anyway, it can be summarised as this: people who have a different opinion to you about technology products are not necessarily idiots. Your post suggests you have difficulties understanding other people's points of view and accepting that their needs, desires, experience and opinions may be different to your own.

BTW, don't underestimate the Chromebook. I didn't see the point of them myself until I borrowed one for a few days recently. They are really quite good - super fast, easy to use, cheap and much improved. If you want a cheap laptop, they are well worth considering. It wouldn't replace my Linux desktop just yet, but it was a fine addition.

There is no opinion about it.
Look at the Chromebook and iPad GUI's, and then look at Win8's, how different are they really?

Yes, that statement I made that you quoted did go right over your head.

as for cheap, fast, easy to use, sure, one can get a $199 special, but don't ***** when it breaks in a year.
As for functionality, If all your are doing is email, facebook and twitter, and some games,, you can get a Nook or Kindle and do that.

But if you want real computing power on the go, Chromebook's and iPads will never cut it, ever.

Originally Posted by Michael Alan Goff

A) You missed the point of his post
B) You should start telling the average consumer about the greatness of the Chromebook. Not many are buying it.

I read his post and it all hinges on the fact that:

1.) Businesses actually updated to Windows 8, when in reality a lot of businesses still use Windows 7 and below (my college still uses Windows 7 on their computers)

2.) Businesses will pay for Windows 8 tablets

3.) Businesses will allow the Windows 8 synergy (just have a monitor and allow workers to use a 2 in 1 tablet)

4.) Consumers will actually see logic. People are still stuck on the fact they want to spend $400+ on iOS tablets.

5.) People won't continue to be content consumers. We all know casual consumers make up the biggest buyers of tablets and smartphones and current Windows offerings pale in comparison to competitors.

I think some here need to stop looking at things like everyone is a cubicle worker/ regular office worker when in fact they are regular people working blue collars jobs (9-5) and the business positives don't apply to these heavy content consumers. That's why we need to stop selling Chromebooks short, there are a lot of people out there where all they do on a computer is in a web browser and Chromebooks are perfect for that.

Originally Posted by Tepid

There is no opinion about it.
Look at the Chromebook and iPad GUI's, and then look at Win8's, how different are they really?

Yes, that statement I made that you quoted did go right over your head.

as for cheap, fast, easy to use, sure, one can get a $199 special, but don't ***** when it breaks in a year.
As for functionality, If all your are doing is email, facebook and twitter, and some games,, you can get a Nook or Kindle and do that.

But if you want real computing power on the go, Chromebook's and iPads will never cut it, ever.

That's the point, not everyone needs all that extra power. Some people all they use is tablets and smartphones for all their internet use. A chromebook does all the internet stuff in a laptop form factor at a low price, that are easy to use and replace if anything goes wrong.

Originally Posted by A895

I read his post and it all hinges on the fact that:

1.) Businesses actually updated to Windows 8, when in reality a lot of businesses still use Windows 7 and below (my college still uses Windows 7 on their computers)

2.) Businesses will pay for Windows 8 tablets

3.) Businesses will allow the Windows 8 synergy (just have a monitor and allow workers to use a 2 in 1 tablet)

4.) Consumers will actually see logic. People are still stuck on the fact they want to spend $400+ on iOS tablets.

5.) People won't continue to be content consumers. We all know casual consumers make up the biggest buyers of tablets and smartphones and current Windows offerings pale in comparison to competitors.

I think some here need to stop looking at things like everyone is a cubicle worker/ regular office worker when in fact they are regular people working blue collars jobs (9-5) and the business positives don't apply to these heavy content consumers. That's why we need to stop selling Chromebooks short, there are a lot of people out there where all they do on a computer is in a web browser and Chromebooks are perfect for that.

We aren't the only ones selling Chromebooks short. The entire market is, as they're barely a blip on the radar in the consumer market or even the business market.

Also, you do know that a lot of companies don't roll out every new OS... and it has little to do with the quality of the OS.

Originally Posted by Michael Alan Goff

We aren't the only ones selling Chromebooks short. The entire market is, as they're barely a blip on the radar in the consumer market or even the business market.

Also, you do know that a lot of companies don't roll out every new OS... and it has little to do with the quality of the OS.

I didn't say anything about quality, rolling out a new OS in a business or hell in government buildings take years. Chromebooks are barely a blip, as they have no marketing or mind-share and it's still relatively new compared to other computer OS's. They just started to really get any attention from OEM's last year. Now this year, a bunch of OEM's that make Windows computers are looking at making ChromeOS devices and Intel has committed to making i3 processors and up for Chromebooks this year. The potential to take Windows market-share is great, that is why Microsoft is so concerned with Chromebooks right now.

Originally Posted by A895

I didn't say anything about quality, rolling out a new OS in a business or hell in government buildings take years. Chromebooks are barely a blip, as they have no marketing or mind-share and it's still relatively new compared to other computer OS's. They just started to really get any attention from OEM's last year. Now this year, a bunch of OEM's that make Windows computers are looking at making ChromeOS devices and Intel has committed to making i3 processors and up for Chromebooks this year. The potential to take Windows market-share is great, that is why Microsoft is so concerned with Chromebooks right now.

The hardware isn't the biggest issue with Chromebooks, the fact that is runs a browser with a few web apps is. And yes, I know it can (kind of) be used offline.

It doesn't matter if OEMs start making more of them. Plenty have made them so far, really, and the market hasn't exactly been eating them up. Why should people buy a 300$ Chromebook when they could just as easily buy a crappy 300$ Windows laptop that runs similarly to what they know. Even Windows 8 is more likely to look normal to the average consumer.

Originally Posted by Michael Alan Goff

The hardware isn't the biggest issue with Chromebooks, the fact that is runs a browser with a few web apps is. And yes, I know it can (kind of) be used offline.

It doesn't matter if OEMs start making more of them. Plenty have made them so far, really, and the market hasn't exactly been eating them up. Why should people buy a 300$ Chromebook when they could just as easily buy a crappy 300$ Windows laptop that runs similarly to what they know. Even Windows 8 is more likely to look normal to the average consumer.

Windows 8 start screen is not going over well with consumers and you know it. Windows 8 is turning to Windows 7.5 now. I would be beyond hesitant to let someone get a slow POS Windows laptop instead of paying $199 for a laptop that will be fast and have linger battery life.

Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app

All my corp purchases the last year have been with Win 8 licenses but downgraded with a Win 7 install. I can flip those back to Win 8 in very short order. It really isn't the interface that's been the problem.... It's been 3rd party support for IE11. That is starting to break free, two of our major OEMs have now endorsed Win8/IE11.

I've stated before, and will stand by it here, that Chromebook falls into the classic 80/20 problem: It can do 80% of the work pretty effectively, but that last 20% is pretty inefficient, of not impossible. Google as well has a history of being disinclined to really commit to that last 20%. I say that as a long time Google Apps Business user. It's the same reason broad iPad use in the corporate world has stalled.

I'm dropping my $.02 on this topic because I see too much Chicken Little all over these boards. First, Microsoft's products are not for everybody and that's a good thing. Ten years ago the tech world was stagnant and it was XP or Mac's Tiger. Love 'em or hate 'em, Google shook the cobwebs out of Apple and Microsoft's board rooms. Not because they came out with a better product - they didn't. But because they gave consumers an alternative. Palm and BlackBerry didn't think they were going to be knocked off their perches and paid the price. I think you can see where I'm going with this.

2014 will be a good year for Microsoft in spite of what their competition does. WP8 is maturing right before our eyes and it's still in its infancy. Windows 8 is slowly gaining traction because let's face it, they're the only game in town. 95% of worldwide adoption affords MS the space to tweak their system without losing share. I'm a long time Mac user and I rarely go near my desktop anymore. I recently caved in and got a Surface RT even though the reviews and the complaints told me not to. All I can say is I'm sorry I waited so long. I was part of the problem. I should have tried it out for myself instead of reading into people's b***h list. I've read the horror stories about 8.1 Preview and I went ahead on my 520 anyway. I must be leading a charmed life 'cause I don't see what all the fuss is about. I'm loving 8.1 and have no intentions of trying anything else....for now. At the end of the day I'm an OS addict and something will pique my interest, but it better be good.

Microsoft should do one thing that windows/rt/phone version 8.x should be last for 10 years. I mean from 8.0-8.9. That way, cost of back porting and supplying security patches for the old versions must diminish. If they skip to windows/rt/phone 9 next year, it would be a big mistake. And every new year there would be a new 8.x version, completely free of charge for updating and upgrading from the earlier version of 8.x.

Originally Posted by dkediger

All my corp purchases the last year have been with Win 8 licenses but downgraded with a Win 7 install. I can flip those back to Win 8 in very short order. It really isn't the interface that's been the problem.... It's been 3rd party support for IE11.

IE11 (or any new IE version) has been the biggest problem for us at work too. We're not a large company, but some of our clients are. Usually the biggest issue with an OS upgrade is not as much the OS itself as the new version of IE that comes along with it. If a new version of IE is released between OS releases, we usually cannot upgrade for awhile.

Originally Posted by coip

Please cheer me up and tell me that Windows Phone will rise to glory, as it deserves; that people will realize Windows 8 is, in fact, much better than Windows 7; that Xbox One is the most ambitious and innovative console to hit the market ever; that IE, Office, OneDrive, and Bing will get the proper respect they deserve, and that public perception of Microsoft as somehow being less cool than Google and Apple will change.

This should cheer you up: despite all of the accurate potential doom and gloom that you have identified, you are still using the Microsoft ecosystem. So are many others. Maybe the masses will someday realize that you are on to something. That should give you hope. Cheers!

Originally Posted by fatclue_98

I'm dropping my $.02 on this topic because I see too much Chicken Little all over these boards.

Good post. Internet boards typically are short on sober and long on Chicken Little.

Well it use to be blackberry and now its iphone and samzung. Consumer market are VERY frickle. But half students with macbook, where do you go to school, scilion valley. And outlok and gmail has equal amount of active users.

Posted via the WPC App for Android!

Now another double blow. Rare cancelling any further Kinect games and Twitch going to Google. That's the gaming gods sending MS a message.

Originally Posted by A895

Windows 8 start screen is not going over well with consumers and you know it. Windows 8 is turning to Windows 7.5 now. I would be beyond hesitant to let someone get a slow POS Windows laptop instead of paying $199 for a laptop that will be fast and have linger battery life.

Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app

Actually, I don't. I know the internet hates it, but a majority don't care either way.

Originally Posted by Michael Alan Goff

Actually, I don't. I know the internet hates it, but a majority don't care either way.

Yes they do. I get told all the time by any normal consumer how they dislike Windows 8. And if it is going so well, why is Microsoft backpedaling?

Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app

Originally Posted by A895

Yes they do. I get told all the time by any normal consumer how they dislike Windows 8. And if it is going so well, why is Microsoft backpedaling?

Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app

To be honest, Microsoft is trying to fit in with the cool internet crowd. So they're going to listen to the loudest voices on it.

Computers:
People hated Vista and Windows 8 because they were both unfinished products when released.
That DID push many to go to Mac computers. I work at Apple and I can not tell you how many people came in and said:
"I am ready to buy my first mac" and I of course ask them what got them interested in Macs. Their reply 100% of the time is "Windows 8 is horrible and they are tired of getting Viruses."
I love OSX. It's an awesome OS. But, I have been using Windows forever and I had Windows 8 beta soon as I possible could. I love Windows 8 and 8.1 update made it even better.
However, MS should have delayed Windows 8 until it released with all the features that are in 8.1 update. They lost Many many people to OSX because of rushing half baked software out the door.
I blame Ballmer for that crap. Ballmer is a COMPLETE *****.

Tablets:
RT sucks, sorry, but it does. and ipad or android tablet is better.
Surface Tablets. Love them, they are just awesome, but they cost too much.
If I want a "laptop" and I am going to spend $900+ on one, I am getting a Mac.
If I am a normal person just looking for a laptop, I am going to buy a traditional $500 dell. Half the price of the tablet.

Phones: App Gap. WP only issue after 8.1 hits. Unless they figure out something there, the phone division will crash and burn within the next 2-3 years. MS isn't going to keep pumping money into the phone market if they can't get above 2% market share.

Games: don't do Xbox or PS4. I game on Windows 8.1 Desktop.

Services:
again, MS screwed the pooch here as well. Outlook ( from Office ) is the biggest piece of trash ever invented.
I have Outlook from office on my Mac. and I also have Windows 8.1 running on bootcamp partition.
Contacts won't even sync from outlook to outlook. I even have an Outlook.com email address. The only way to get contacts into outlook.com email was to import them from Google Gmail or enter them each one at a time ... LAME.

And again, I am sorry, but i.e. does suck pretty bad. I use Chrome on OSX AND Windows 8.
I tried to love i.e. honestly, but every time I try to like it, it crumbles and I hate it even more.
Not that chrome is the worlds best or anything, but it IS better than i.e. (safari is also better than i.e)
I use chrome a lot because of the android phones I get from time to time. (right this minute I have a Nokia 520, iPhone 5s and LG G2 android phones) Chrome syncs my mail contacts and calendar super easy, and it works on all 3 platforms.

I love outlook.com email. I have tried to get EVERYONE to get an outlook.com email address over gmail.
I have 2 outlook.com email address and I am no longer using gmail or anything other than a place to store contacts and browser favs.
Bing. I look at the pictures each day, use google to search...

OneDrive is the BEST. I have it on all 3 of my phones. LOVE IT!!!!

MS isn't going anywhere any time soon. but they need to pull their heads out of their butts and FIX some crap.

Chrome is consistently the worst of the big three browsers on Windows. No credibility there.

If Vista was so horrible and so many people switched to OSX, why is Microsoft still at 95% worldwide usage? Vista was worlds better than XP but it was too different. 8.1 is much lighter than 7 but it too is a radical departure from people's comfort zone. Even a 49 year old such as myself understands that nothing lasts forever. Where I come from that's called progress. Maverick is essentially Panther with a few tweaks, just like iOS7 isn't radically different than iOS4. No wonder people complain about staleness from Apple.

Originally Posted by Ordeith

Chrome is consistently the worst of the big three browsers on Windows. No credibility there.

Then why does sites that glitch and won't go back when hitting the back button work fine on Chrome but not either one of the browsers on Win 8.1?

To say chrome is bad is just not facing facts. i.e. sucks.

Originally Posted by fatclue_98

If Vista was so horrible and so many people switched to OSX, why is Microsoft still at 95% worldwide usage? Vista was worlds better than XP but it was too different. 8.1 is much lighter than 7 but it too is a radical departure from people's comfort zone. Even a 49 year old such as myself understands that nothing lasts forever. Where I come from that's called progress. Maverick is essentially Panther with a few tweaks, just like iOS7 isn't radically different than iOS4. No wonder people complain about staleness from Apple.

Vista was complete garbage. I build all of my own gaming machines and have use ever single version of Windows ever made.
Vista was TRASH. Nearly ZERO driver support when it came out. It was a massive memory hog and had memory leaks out the ***.

LOL panther with tweaks. You obviously are just trolling and have NO idea what you are talking about.

And to make fun of iOS when WP can't even get facebook to make an app for the OS, microsoft has to make their own version that is about equal to what I used on iOS back in 2008.

it's ok to like what you like but to just pull random crapola outta yer arse like all that above.... SMH

Originally Posted by fatclue_98

If Vista was so horrible and so many people switched to OSX, why is Microsoft still at 95% worldwide usage? Vista was worlds better than XP but it was too different. 8.1 is much lighter than 7 but it too is a radical departure from people's comfort zone. Even a 49 year old such as myself understands that nothing lasts forever. Where I come from that's called progress. Maverick is essentially Panther with a few tweaks, just like iOS7 isn't radically different than iOS4. No wonder people complain about staleness from Apple.

I never once said that when VISTA came out people started switching to macs. I said Windows 8 has turned away a LOT of people.
I never once said MS lost 50% of their market share over night. I said People Are switching. Corporate users alone will keep MS at a very high market share because a company isn't going to switch their entire operation over to macs when what they have is working.

Look at what the original poster said. 50% of the entire campus is using Macs, not windows PCs.
Heck, go look at how many macs are at Google headquarters, nearly 100%. (logical since google and MS hate each other)

In the last 2 weeks I have sold over 300 mac computers, and half of those were graduation presents. When the back to school specials kick back in around the end of June, I average 2000 mac sales per month for 4 solid months. I am One person at One Apple Store.

Originally Posted by Michael Alan Goff

To be honest, Microsoft is trying to fit in with the cool internet crowd. So they're going to listen to the loudest voices on it.

It's not the internet crowd, normal consumers have a hard time switching to a touch based OS on desktops. That's the problem. I highly doubt it's because of the internet.

Originally Posted by Ordeith

Chrome is consistently the worst of the big three browsers on Windows. No credibility there.

It's interesting how consumers seem to gravitate towards the most awful experiences available. Chrome might consistently be the worst browser, yet it happens to have the highest market share of all browsers. In the same way, Android is often said (here on WPCentral) to be the worst mobile OS out there. Yet 4 out of 5 smartphone users choose Android. Why do we do that to ourselves? :amaze:

Originally Posted by fatclue_98

If Vista was so horrible and so many people switched to OSX, why is Microsoft still at 95% worldwide usage? Vista was worlds better than XP but it was too different. 8.1 is much lighter than 7 but it too is a radical departure from people's comfort zone.

Vista was better after a couple service packs, but it was certainly bad at release. Windows 8 at least worked for the most part out of the box.

Chrome has 1/3 the market share of IE. Credibility loss again.

Originally Posted by mayconvert

Vista was complete garbage. I build all of my own gaming machines and have use ever single version of Windows ever made.
Vista was TRASH. Nearly ZERO driver support when it came out. It was a massive memory hog and had memory leaks out the ***.

LOL panther with tweaks. You obviously are just trolling and have NO idea what you are talking about.

And to make fun of iOS when WP can't even get facebook to make an app for the OS, microsoft has to make their own version that is about equal to what I used on iOS back in 2008.

it's ok to like what you like but to just pull random crapola outta yer arse like all that above.... SMH

You're right, I don't know jack. I only have a PowerPC eMac running 10.4 (working perfectly since 2004) and a newer Intel Mac. Windows 7 had even less driver support than Vista when it came out and there are still some legacy apps that don't have 64-bit support. You like iOS, that's fine. I like it too, in fact I love Apple products. But keep an open mind and less fanboy-ism. There are some things that OSX does better than Windows, particularly graphic-intensive tasks like AutoCAD, but for everyday browsing, emails, etc. it's not worth the added expense for these common tasks. Windows may not be better, but it does the same job for a lot less. I don't know about you, but I work for a living. I can't afford to be a fanboy, it ain't good for my finances.

Originally Posted by Ordeith

Chrome has 1/3 the market share of IE. Credibility loss again.

I suppose that depends on where you get the statistics. According to this site Chrome's market share is double IE's:

Attachment 67133

Originally Posted by tgp

I suppose that depends on where you get the statistics. According to this site Chrome's market share is double IE's:

Attachment 67133

That includes tablets, where IE is only available for 5% of those devices. For PCs (where you can have IE or Chrome) IE is at ~60% and Chrome is at a little under 20%.

Originally Posted by tgp

I suppose that depends on where you get the statistics. According to this site Chrome's market share is double IE's:

Attachment 67133

LOL, stat counter.
It also matters what you count. Stat counter has been shown to be highly susceptible to Google's prefetch usage in chrome that highly inflates the requests a site will see from individual chrome visitors. People who parrot that site are just validation seekers.

Originally Posted by mayconvert

Then why does sites that glitch and won't go back when hitting the back button work fine on Chrome but not either one of the browsers on Win 8.1?

To say chrome is bad is just not facing facts. i.e. sucks.

Chrome has caused my MBA to Blue Screen on Windows 8. IE never did that. It has caused Kernel Panics for people. Chrome is a horrible browser that doesn't conform to standards.

Originally Posted by A895

It's not the internet crowd, normal consumers have a hard time switching to a touch based OS on desktops. That's the problem. I highly doubt it's because of the internet.

And yet I know people who can barely use a computer and only asked me "how do you shut down" when it comes to using Windows 8.

Originally Posted by Michael Alan Goff

Chrome has caused my MBA to Blue Screen on Windows 8. IE never did that. It has caused Kernel Panics for people. Chrome is a horrible browser that doesn't conform to standards.



And yet I know people who can barely use a computer and only asked me "how do you shut down" when it comes to using Windows 8.

Anecdotal. There is a reason why Microsoft is backpedaling and it's not because of some vocal minority on the web.

Man, I'm so disappointed Microsoft didn't snatch up Twitch. I give them credit for trying to buy them, but apparently Twitch went with Google instead. This is a huge loss for Microsoft as that would've been their ticket back into the online video business and it would've perfectly complemented their Xbox portfolio of devices.

Originally Posted by A895

Anecdotal. There is a reason why Microsoft is backpedaling and it's not because of some vocal minority on the web.

It's not backpedaling, it's more like caving in. Overhauls such as W8 usually require some kind of learning curve. Imagine the owner of a '65 Mustang going to a Ford dealer and asking the service manager where the points and condensor are in his 2014 Mustang. I'm sorry but people are getting too fat and lazy to figure out how things work. The popular joke in the 80's was about guys who didn't know how to set the clock on their VCR. These are probably the same idiots clamoring for the start button.

Yeah....I'm finding Win 8.1 Update 1 is pretty comfortable with a keyboard and mouse. The only thing I really hold against W8 is the initial discovery of customizing the Start screen. Same problems exist for new users of OSx, IOS, Chrome, Linux.

Originally Posted by fatclue_98

It's not backpedaling, it's more like caving in. Overhauls such as W8 usually require some kind of learning curve. Imagine the owner of a '65 Mustang going to a Ford dealer and asking the service manager where the points and condensor are in his 2014 Mustang. I'm sorry but people are getting too fat and lazy to figure out how things work. The popular joke in the 80's was about guys who didn't know how to set the clock on their VCR. These are probably the same idiots clamoring for the start button.

I agree with you. People are dumb nowadays so Microsoft doing what it is doing now, was eventual.

Posted via Windows Phone Central App

I have now pretty much given up on msoft after the Surface 3 release. I had been putting off buying a win8.1 tablet in the hopes they would release a msoft version. But they seem focused on big business with the *base* start-price of the S3 at $985 with included keyboard. Hell, I have an Acer 10.6", non-touch, i5, 6GB, 500GB laptop I paid $385 for running win8.1.

Time to look again at the Lenovo/Dell,ASUS/Acer 8" offerings as msoft don't seem to be interested in the poor folk. :)

Originally Posted by BrackleyDave

I think if you were to use one word to describe Microsoft recently it would be "Late"

They were Late to the mobile phone market - although rather bizarrely they were actually early to smartphones with Windows Mobile, but then managed to destroy that market share by scrapping the original windows mobile 6 in favor of Windows Mobile 7,

I'm glad someone acknowledges that Apple didn't invent smartphones! I had a T-Mobile MDA and the Wing before I got the G-1. I'm heading back to Windows after six years of Android.



Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, TX

Originally Posted by PiggyMiddle

I have now pretty much given up on msoft after the Surface 3 release. I had been putting off buying a win8.1 tablet in the hopes they would release a msoft version. But they seem focused on big business with the *base* start-price of the S3 at $985 with included keyboard. Hell, I have an Acer 10.6", non-touch, i5, 6GB, 500GB laptop I paid $385 for running win8.1.

Time to look again at the Lenovo/Dell,ASUS/Acer 8" offerings as msoft don't seem to be interested in the poor folk. :)

I feel your pain.

Posted via Windows Phone Central App

Originally Posted by PiggyMiddle

I have now pretty much given up on msoft after the Surface 3 release. I had been putting off buying a win8.1 tablet in the hopes they would release a msoft version. But they seem focused on big business with the *base* start-price of the S3 at $985 with included keyboard. Hell, I have an Acer 10.6", non-touch, i5, 6GB, 500GB laptop I paid $385 for running win8.1.

Time to look again at the Lenovo/Dell,ASUS/Acer 8" offerings as msoft don't seem to be interested in the poor folk. :)

My only beef with the 8" Pro devices is that in desktop mode, anything near the corners is very difficult to touch. Desktop mode is still best left to a mouse or trackpad - or even a stylus.

Originally Posted by fatclue_98

It's not backpedaling, it's more like caving in. Overhauls such as W8 usually require some kind of learning curve. Imagine the owner of a '65 Mustang going to a Ford dealer and asking the service manager where the points and condensor are in his 2014 Mustang. I'm sorry but people are getting too fat and lazy to figure out how things work. The popular joke in the 80's was about guys who didn't know how to set the clock on their VCR. These are probably the same idiots clamoring for the start button.

I really don't see what the issue is. I use windows 8 pretty much the same way I used windows 7. I press the start key on my keyboard, type what I am looking for and press return and new search is a lot better than the windows 7 start menu (I even discovered it has OCR!!)

Originally Posted by engineermoore

I really don't see what the issue is. I use windows 8 pretty much the same way I used windows 7. I press the start key on my keyboard, type what I am looking for and press return and new search is a lot better than the windows 7 start menu (I even discovered it has OCR!!)

I also use Windows 8 roughly the save as Windows 7. There's still one thing I don't like about the Start screen though; what if I don't recall the name of what I'm looking for? The collapsed menu in the Start menu on Windows 7 made it a lot easier to find. Normally I recognize it when I see it, but in the Start screen there are hundreds of small tiles that must basically be read individually.

Maybe.

They can recover because:
- Windows 9 is on the way, and Microsoft must know just how much damage Windows 8 and RT have done to the PC market and their image. Hopefully Windows 9 will have the impact Windows 7 did back in 2009.
- Windows Phone 9 is on the way as well, and WP8.1 is now as good as Android and iOS. (in terms of features, but we are still 2 years behind on Apps). With the new rapid release schedule Microsoft is promising with WP, its clear that they don't want to be left behind ever again.
- The improvements to IE11 over IE10 and IE9 show just how committed Microsoft is to bringing an amazing browsing experience to Windows with IE. It was released back in October last year and is already almost surpassing IE8's market share.
- Sure Google Docs is big, and so is Gmail, but Outlook is closing the gap, and Office is not going anywhere any time soon.
- Microsoft is 2nd place in the cloud world (Amazon is 1st)
- Satya Nadella is a really, really good CEO. He seems to be making all the right moves.

However, they can't recover because:
- It's too late to save Windows. In 2009, Windows had almost no competition, and this is why Windows 7 grew so fast. Windows 9 will be in direct competition with Android, Chrome OS and other low-cost alternatives.
- Windows Phone is still behind iOS and Android, the app situation is horrible (and with no signs of improving). Android and iOS are just too powerful for Windows Phone to gain considerable momentum.
- Internet Explorer as a brand is so damaged by IE6 and how Microsoft used it to gain monopoly with Windows 95 / 98 / 2k, that it will become irrelevant. People prefer Chrome, because of its speed and simplicity, and many people say the only reason why IE is popular is because it comes preinstalled on Windows machines.
- Office is becoming irrelevant, because non-power users can do everything they need to do using Google Docs, Open Office or iWork. Office will continue to thrive for power users, but for how long?
- Even though Nadella is making all the right moves, Sinofsky and Ballmer have done too much damage to the ship.

I've tried to be as unbiased as possible in my comparison, but I really hope that Microsoft can rise to their former glory. Yes, they seem to have made nothing but wrong moves since 2012. But Windows 8.1 Update 2, Universal Apps and the Kinect-less Xbox One shows that they can learn from their mistakes. Windows Phone is growing in a lot of markets worldwide, and I know that it can succeed. Sure, WP is behind on apps, but if the platform becomes substantially better and easier to develop for than the competition, I think that the market share will grow.

Some say Microsoft is in Checkmate, but I think that with the right moves and the right products, they can take back the upper hand against the competition and return to their former glory. (with IE12)

Microsoft in checkmate? From who? It certainly isn't OS X and their <5% market share or Linux with their <1% share. Please don't say ChromeOS, I get a bad case of the hiccups if I laugh too much, damn you Katt Williams!!

I take it you're a Google fan and that's cool, but ChromeOS will not be replacing Windows anytime soon. Google Docs will not replace Office.....ever. Governments, healthcare and engineering are just 3 examples of big industry that will NEVER go to Google services. Your enthusiasm is laudable but you need to see outside the mobile world.

Originally Posted by fatclue_98

Microsoft in checkmate? From who? It certainly isn't OS X and their <5% market share or Linux with their <1% share. Please don't say ChromeOS, I get a bad case of the hiccups if I laugh too much, damn you Katt Williams!!

I take it you're a Google fan and that's cool, but ChromeOS will not be replacing Windows anytime soon. Google Docs will not replace Office.....ever. Governments, healthcare and engineering are just 3 examples of big industry that will NEVER go to Google services. Your enthusiasm is laudable but you need to see outside the mobile world.

Clearly Windows is in trouble from ChromeOS because OEMs don't have to pay for it and even though it has hardly any program support, it has everything 80% of people need.

Windows Phone, on the other hand, will fail because OEMs don't have to pay for it and even though it has hardly any app support, it has everything 80% of people need, and that's clearly why it will... Wait a minute, that sounds familiar.

Originally Posted by fatclue_98

Microsoft in checkmate? From who? It certainly isn't OS X and their <5% market share or Linux with their <1% share. Please don't say ChromeOS, I get a bad case of the hiccups if I laugh too much, damn you Katt Williams!!

I take it you're a Google fan and that's cool, but ChromeOS will not be replacing Windows anytime soon. Google Docs will not replace Office.....ever. Governments, healthcare and engineering are just 3 examples of big industry that will NEVER go to Google services. Your enthusiasm is laudable but you need to see outside the mobile world.

You must have skipped my reasons for why they will succeed.
I tried to make the most unbiased list I could using my own knowledge.
I love MS and I want them to succeed, but it does look like they are being clawed at every angle which makes them successful.

I'm going to reply to the last 2 posts with a couple of simple questions.

1. Can ChromeOS create & edit .dwg files with X-Refs? If the answer is no, they just lost the entire engineering, manufacturing, architectural, automotive & construction industries to name a few.
2. Can ChromeOS work as an embedded system? If the answer is no, it's not welcome in the healthcare industry.

I said only a couple of questions for the sake of brevity. There are countless others. Real simple, ChromeOS is a consumer-based browser that runs some menial programs. Sorry guys, Windows and OS X are the big leagues and everybody else is still in Khoury League.


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Originally Posted by fatclue_98

I'm going to reply to the last 2 posts with a couple of simple questions.

1. Can ChromeOS create & edit .dwg files with X-Refs? If the answer is no, they just lost the entire engineering, manufacturing, architectural, automotive & construction industries to name a few.
2. Can ChromeOS work as an embedded system? If the answer is no, it's not welcome in the healthcare industry.

I said only a couple of questions for the sake of brevity. There are countless others. Real simple, ChromeOS is a consumer-based browser that runs some menial programs. Sorry guys, Windows and OS X are the big leagues and everybody else is still in Khoury League.


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Haha I was agreeing with you. I was showing the hypocrisy of people who say that ChromeOS will prevail for various reasons, yet Windows Phone won't ever be big even though the exact same reasons apply.

Originally Posted by fatclue_98

I'm going to reply to the last 2 posts with a couple of simple questions.

1. Can ChromeOS create & edit .dwg files with X-Refs? If the answer is no, they just lost the entire engineering, manufacturing, architectural, automotive & construction industries to name a few.
2. Can ChromeOS work as an embedded system? If the answer is no, it's not welcome in the healthcare industry.

I said only a couple of questions for the sake of brevity. There are countless others. Real simple, ChromeOS is a consumer-based browser that runs some menial programs. Sorry guys, Windows and OS X are the big leagues and everybody else is still in Khoury League.


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Nobody said ChromeOS was for those crowds. But for the millions of ordinary people, it'll do just fine.

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Originally Posted by Jas00555

Haha I was agreeing with you. I was showing the hypocrisy of people who say that ChromeOS will prevail for various reasons, yet Windows Phone won't ever be big even though the exact same reasons apply.

ChromeOS at least has more support and it is desktop OS and not Mobile OS. WP is going against two giants who have he market on lock. ChromeOS is targeting casuals and people who don't need office to survive.

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Originally Posted by A895

ChromeOS at least has more support and it is desktop OS and not Mobile OS. WP is going against two giants who have he market on lock. ChromeOS is targeting casuals and people who don't need office to survive.

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Again, double standard.

WP going against two giants = fail

ChromeOS going up against two giants = possible success.

Windows Phone is getting picked up by people who are getting their first smart phone and don't need things like Candy Crush or Snapchat to survive. There's a lot more to Windows than just Office.

Originally Posted by Jas00555

Again, double standard.

WP going against two giants = fail

ChromeOS going up against two giants = possible success.

Windows Phone is getting picked up by people who are getting their first smart phone and don't need things like Candy Crush or Snapchat to survive. There's a lot more to Windows than just Office.

Then why does Office keep being brought up for strengths for WP and Windows 8? That's a double standard. As you can see with the slow growth for WP, as time goes on the market of new smartphone buyers is shrinking. What makes that even worse is that competitors devices are at the same price and performance level now too.

I don't know why the success of WP and ChromeOS have to be compared as they ate two different industries and markets. Similar but not the same conditions.

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Originally Posted by Jas00555

Again, double standard.

WP going against two giants = fail

ChromeOS going up against two giants = possible success.

I agree. I think the chances are that WP & ChromeOS will have the same success, or lack of success. But there is one difference that could make the "double standard" actually come to fruition. Windows Phone is going into a market with similar prices & operational techniques (not sure how to word that) as the competition. What I mean is that it costs as much as what it's up against, and it's not simpler to use or more reliable. Looking at the whole picture objectively, WP doesn't have any real advantages.

ChromeOS, however, is cheaper, simpler, and more reliable than Windows. True, Windows is exponentially more capable, but for most users it's like using a sledgehammer to drive in a thumbtack. Most only use a fraction of its capabilities, basically only using a PC for what a Chromebook could do.

Ironically i think the main competition of the Chrome OS is not Windows... but the cheap Android tablets, the Windows OS fits better in niche and specific markets like gaming, business and other professional applications, i doubt Chrome OS could take those kind of users, because of the limitations of that OS.

And for the "normal" people? Well is much cheaper and less fuss about it buying and using a tablet than a full size laptop with the Chrome OS. The lack of the bigger HDD o SSD on those Chromebooks IMHO is one of the biggest drawbacks because the "normal" people likes to store massive amounts of music and videos. Also not many people are aware about how to use the cloud for storage, the idea itself turns off many folks.

I think some people are giving too much credit the Chrome OS, i have tinkered it a bit and i don't say it's a bad OS, not all... but the idea that Chrome OS can replace Windows is just exaggerated. The Chrome OS can be good for educational use or for thin client because is cheaper than the traditional ones, but for anything else... any tablet gets the job done for casual use and for more productive work or gaming, Windows is just better (And you can add Ubuntu or OS X)

Originally Posted by Pacus1x

Ironically i think the main competition of the Chrome OS is not Windows... but the cheap Android tablets, the Windows OS fits better in niche and specific markets like gaming, business and other professional applications, i doubt Chrome OS could take those kind of users, because of the limitations of that OS.

And for the "normal" people? Well is much cheaper and less fuss about it buying and using a tablet than a full size laptop with the Chrome OS. The lack of the bigger HDD o SSD on those Chromebooks IMHO is one of the biggest drawbacks because the "normal" people likes to store massive amounts of music and videos. Also not many people are aware about how to use the cloud for storage, the idea itself turns off many folks.

I think some people are giving too much credit the Chrome OS, i have tinkered it a bit and i don't say it's a bad OS, not all... but the idea that Chrome OS can replace Windows is just exaggerated. The Chrome OS can be good for educational use or for thin client because is cheaper than the traditional ones, but for anything else... any tablet gets the job done for casual use and for more productive work or gaming, Windows is just better (And you can add Ubuntu or OS X)

I highly doubt a larger number of normal people store massive amounts of movies on their computer. That defeats the whole purpose of a Chromebook. You can use local storage, but everything else is in Google Drive that you save, which is not that much, because this is normal average people.

A Windows tablet is a gimped computer without a keyboard. There is a reason they aren't selling and Microsoft had to license Windows for tablets free. If someone wanted a tablet they would get an actually tablet OS like Android or iOS.

I also highly doubt someone (normal people we are taking about here) is gaming on a Windows tablet. What specific reason would a Windows tablet would be better than a Chromebook? I can't find one as a Windows tablet has more compromises than a Chromebook, at least with a Chromebook I can have a traditional laptop form factor instead of paying for accessories for a smaller screen.

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Originally Posted by jordanzhninja

- Office is becoming irrelevant, because non-power users can do everything they need to do using Google Docs, Open Office or iWork.

While I agree with some of your points, the above quote needs to be checked against the apple most downloaded app figures since Office release to apple-aps. Msoft has a huge grip within the corporate world with Office that Google Docs can only dream about. The other OS items you mention have hardly any grip at all.

The apps for windows phone will scoot up now that wp8.1 is moving out into the wild. Developers and users were not fans of wp7 or wp8, but wp8.1 is putting the cat amongst the pigeons right now. I am an app developer and the interest is moving up fast. It will not reach Android for a while but msoft is doing a lot of things correctly to push into that app market. Cortana was a huge leap for them as the voice "features" on wp8 and earlier were joke! Choose one of five statements for the phone to understand. Are you kidding me? :)

Don't give up on windows yet, I have just bought a 520 to work with and I know many other devs doing the same. The msoft SDK is MUCH easier to work with than Android.