06-24-2014 09:16 AM
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  1. dlalonde's Avatar
    Microsoft has ruled the computer world in the 90's right up until Mac OS X came out. Until that point, they called the shots, they decided what was good and bad. IE was the most liked browser in comparison to Netscape and AOL.

    Then Apple released Mac OS X. For the first time, an OS wasn't just useful, it was beautiful. Shortly before, Apple started releasing computer with colours, moking their beige PC counterparts.

    During that time, Microsoft released Windows XP which, at the beginning, got a lot of hatred. Then they got working on Windows Longhorn which was supposed to be XP's successor. But when they saw how popular Mac was becoming, they scrapped it and started from scratch which made Vista come out 5 years after XP... and fully slowed down and buggy.

    They managed to get things right 3 years later with Windows 7 but then they acted like they were calling the shots like in the 90's and thought "We'll make this OS that's aimed entirely at touch screens!". So they took the very good product that was Windows 7, removed the start menu and button (!!!) and changed the desktop from the center of the OS to a plain app thinking people would just adapt... but people get confused when their browser gets updated and looks a little different... so imagine a whole OS!

    Again, they realized they made a mistake that they tried to fix with Windows 8.1.

    Sadly, the same pattern applies with Xbox Music on Windows Phone 8.1. You had a great music player called the Zune. From Zune to the Music+Video hub, they lost functionnalities (gapless playback, FM radio, etc.). But then Microsoft decides they want to add functionnalities on Xbox Music more often and include streaming so, again, they scrap the whole thing and start from sratch and they release it in the wild fully buggy and slowed...

    Microsoft should really stop scrapping things and starting over. Everytime it takes immense amount of time to correct and they're always set back after their competition. Sometimes it's the best thing to scrap and start over indeed... but if you do that, you have to make sure the product you're putting out is superior to the previous one and your competitors... not worst.
    06-19-2014 07:42 AM
  2. Chregu's Avatar
    You forgot to mention the Kin ;-)

    Microsoft Kin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    boovish likes this.
    06-19-2014 07:50 AM
  3. spaulagain's Avatar
    I really don't get the beef with the Xbox Music app. Works great for me, and I'm an avid Zune fan.
    06-19-2014 07:53 AM
  4. dlalonde's Avatar
    You forgot to mention the Kin ;-)

    Microsoft Kin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Didn't even know that existed! :P
    06-19-2014 07:55 AM
  5. dlalonde's Avatar
    I really don't get the beef with the Xbox Music app. Works great for me, and I'm an avid Zune fan.
    See I don't know if I should answer you because, from what I've seen from your previous posts around here, you seem to be an avid Microsoft fan who defends them quite a lot and do not seem to be open to even constructive criticism. But I may be mistaken and if so I do apologize. But as far as what's wrong with the Xbox Music app, it is well documented on this forum so I won't sum it up here again.

    Though I will add that it's getting better. But when it was first released, it was subpar in comparison not only to the competition but also to everything Microsoft had done. That's my point. They sometimes release subpar products to make them better with time and that's bad for their reputation and it sucks for paying customers such as ourselves.
    Andrew Gordon and vzw8830 like this.
    06-19-2014 07:58 AM
  6. spaulagain's Avatar
    See I don't know if I should answer you because, from what I've seen from your previous posts around here, you seem to be an avid Microsoft fan who defends them quite a lot and do not seem to be open to even constructive criticism. But I may be mistaken and if so I do apologize. But as far as what's wrong with the Xbox Music app, it is well documented on this forum so I won't sum it up here again.
    Lol, I love how supporting Microsoft makes people a "fanboi" who must not ever critique Microsoft.

    Yes, I love Microsoft products especially after they launched Windows Phone. Before that, I thought their stuff was mediocre at best.

    I've read the "issues" with the Xbox Music app. And many of them have been fixed, and they're updating it twice a week. I've also used my Zune HD enough to know that while it might of had a few more features, it had some issues too.

    The Zune Desktop app is where the feature gap really is. I use the Desktop app to manage my music library and the XBM desktop app still pails in comparison.
    06-19-2014 08:03 AM
  7. Donny James's Avatar
    Microsoft has ruled the computer world in the 90's right up until Mac OS X came out. Until that point, they called the shots, they decided what was good and bad. IE was the most liked browser in comparison to Netscape and AOL.

    Then Apple released Mac OS X. For the first time, an OS wasn't just useful, it was beautiful. Shortly before, Apple started releasing computer with colours, moking their beige PC counterparts.

    During that time, Microsoft released Windows XP which, at the beginning, got a lot of hatred. Then they got working on Windows Longhorn which was supposed to be XP's successor. But when they saw how popular Mac was becoming, they scrapped it and started from scratch which made Vista come out 5 years after XP... and fully slowed down and buggy.

    They managed to get things right 3 years later with Windows 7 but then they acted like they were calling the shots like in the 90's and thought "We'll make this OS that's aimed entirely at touch screens!". So they took the very good product that was Windows 7, removed the start menu and button (!!!) and changed the desktop from the center of the OS to a plain app thinking people would just adapt... but people get confused when their browser gets updated and looks a little different... so imagine a whole OS!

    Again, they realized they made a mistake that they tried to fix with Windows 8.1.

    Sadly, the same pattern applies with Xbox Music on Windows Phone 8.1. You had a great music player called the Zune. From Zune to the Music+Video hub, they lost functionnalities (gapless playback, FM radio, etc.). But then Microsoft decides they want to add functionnalities on Xbox Music more often and include streaming so, again, they scrap the whole thing and start from sratch and they release it in the wild fully buggy and slowed...

    Microsoft should really stop scrapping things and starting over. Everytime it takes immense amount of time to correct and they're always set back after their competition. Sometimes it's the best thing to scrap and start over indeed... but if you do that, you have to make sure the product you're putting out is superior to the previous one and your competitors... not worst.
    It gets really annoying when they take out features that were already there before and you have ask for them back. And then they take so long with putting them back because of some big bug that delays it. I say hire more developers and get to the cranking. Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzz.
    dlalonde likes this.
    06-19-2014 08:07 AM
  8. Zulfigar's Avatar
    You forgot to mention the Kin ;-)

    Microsoft Kin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I don't actually count the Kin as anything special, because Microsoft was required to make it under contract when they acquired Dangerous Incorporated. ;) The poor phone line was set up to fail from the start, sadly.
    dlalonde likes this.
    06-19-2014 08:10 AM
  9. MDMcAtee's Avatar
    Ugggg

    IE has never been the most liked browser,it is the most used browser and we all know about the flap over it .

    Everything else except for all the issues 7 had and to be honest,I'll take XP over it any day...but know with the forced new standards folks have to change,like it or not.

    As to the abomination of Xbox,I agree,but know that wither we like it or not,we are stuck with it till they fire the idiots who are running it,and I don't think that is going to happen neither. They are trying their best to force their streaming pile of horse manure on the Windows world,and they are to arrogant to care they are going to lose customers over it. They need to allow it and the video pile of cow dung to be completely removed from the phone and turn it over to the developers to fix. Those that want it,can keep it,but making it a non removable system app as screwed up as it is is ludicrous .

    I've been a Windows fan since the beginning of it,but this is just pure arrogance on their part.
    06-19-2014 08:11 AM
  10. dlalonde's Avatar
    Lol, I love how supporting Microsoft makes people a "fanboi" who must not ever critique Microsoft.
    Careful that is not what I said. I also support Microsoft and I've been trying to get people I know to get a Windows Phone and to learn how to use Windows 8.1 because it's really good. Since Windows 8, I've been all Microsoft (Windows 8, outlook.com, Windows Phone, OneDrive, etc.). I don't even have a Google account anymore.

    But the truth of the matter is that they are not infallible. If you have not been experiencing all the problems people have been experiencing since the launch of Xbox Music app, then good for you but you seem to be a rather privileged user.

    And what you said about updates every two weeks is exactly what I'm talking about. They released a buggy app, that they know is buggy or they wouldn't treat it as a work in progress that needs updating every two weeks, and after the release, they work on making it better.

    But the way they should do it is actually to make it great BEFORE the release and not rely on their paying costomers to act as beta testers (yes I am being a little harsh here).
    06-19-2014 08:14 AM
  11. MDMcAtee's Avatar
    Lol, I love how supporting Microsoft makes people a "fanboi" who must not ever critique Microsoft.

    Yes, I love Microsoft products especially after they launched Windows Phone. Before that, I thought their stuff was mediocre at best.

    I've read the "issues" with the Xbox Music app. And many of them have been fixed, and they're updating it twice a week. I've also used my Zune HD enough to know that while it might of had a few more features, it had some issues too.

    The Zune Desktop app is where the feature gap really is. I use the Desktop app to manage my music library and the XBM desktop app still pails in comparison.
    It's not just because you're a fan,I am as well,but,because you like it and think it is swell...it isn't for thousands and thousands of people...
    06-19-2014 08:16 AM
  12. dlalonde's Avatar
    IE has never been the most liked browser,it is the most used browser and we all know about the flap over it .
    Well in the 90's it was for a while because Netscape was so slow and AOL... was AOL :P
    06-19-2014 08:16 AM
  13. T Moore's Avatar
    And what you said about updates every two weeks is exactly what I'm talking about. They released a buggy app, that they know is buggy or they wouldn't treat it as a work in progress that needs updating every two weeks, and after the release, they work on making it better.
    They were not going to hold up the release of 8.1 Developers Preview till Xbox Music was totally finished.
    Xbox Music updates fixes the problems MS knows about and incorporates user input in their updates, what I would expect.
    8.1 is about a preview for developers, not a polished OS for general release.
    MSFTisMIA and neo158 like this.
    06-19-2014 08:31 AM
  14. AG VK's Avatar
    I really don't get the beef with the Xbox Music app. Works great for me, and I'm an avid Zune fan.
    How do you use it? I have a huge library, around 20 GB on my L920 and it's really really slow and laggy. So much so that I gave up and went back to using my iPod. I was considering getting a 520 or 525 just for music and gaming, especially now that you can put apps on SD, but I'll be holding off on that until these issues get fixed.

    I think that people using the Xbox music pass and stream music will find it okay. The problem is for people like me who store music locally on the phone memory.
    Warren_S likes this.
    06-19-2014 08:36 AM
  15. MDMcAtee's Avatar
    Well in the 90's it was for a while because Netscape was so slow and AOL... was AOL :P
    You don't remember why it was slow,do you?
    06-19-2014 08:38 AM
  16. spaulagain's Avatar
    How do you use it? I have a huge library, around 20 GB on my L920 and it's really really slow and laggy. So much so that I gave up and went back to using my iPod. I was considering getting a 520 or 525 just for music and gaming, especially now that you can put apps on SD, but I'll be holding off on that until these issues get fixed.

    I think that people using the Xbox music pass and stream music will find it okay. The problem is for people like me who store music locally on the phone memory.
    Ya, I just use it for streaming. Only a few artists that aren't available in the XBM library are on my phone.
    06-19-2014 08:39 AM
  17. MDMcAtee's Avatar
    They were not going to hold up the release of 8.1 Developers Preview till Xbox Music was totally finished.
    Xbox Music updates fixes the problems MS knows about and incorporates user input in their updates, what I would expect.
    8.1 is about a preview for developers, not a polished OS for general release.
    No...that's bs....they have had more than enough time to straighten this out. This was supposed to be a RTM,not beta remember....
    The fact is Microsoft wants you and me and everyone else to stream music and video and purchase through them. They forced this on us,and unless they receive more flack over it,they won't put enough resources into fixing their screw up.
    06-19-2014 08:45 AM
  18. Chregu's Avatar
    They were not going to hold up the release of 8.1 Developers Preview till Xbox Music was totally finished.
    Xbox Music updates fixes the problems MS knows about and incorporates user input in their updates, what I would expect.
    8.1 is about a preview for developers, not a polished OS for general release.
    And I thought the Lumia 630 is already being sold...
    WanderingTraveler likes this.
    06-19-2014 08:51 AM
  19. dlalonde's Avatar
    They were not going to hold up the release of 8.1 Developers Preview till Xbox Music was totally finished.
    Xbox Music updates fixes the problems MS knows about and incorporates user input in their updates, what I would expect.
    8.1 is about a preview for developers, not a polished OS for general release.
    Partly true. Actually, the OS itself was RTMed. Which means that when people buy new phones in a couple of weeks/months whenever 8.1 is officially released, they'll have to update Xbox Music to get the latest. But that is OK in itself because, indeed, we are on a developer preview. BUT the app itself is already available on Windows Phone Store. Which means that non-8.1 users can access it and comment on it and make their minds up and convince other people that it's subpar... which is bad for Microsoft.
    06-19-2014 09:02 AM
  20. dlalonde's Avatar
    Ya, I just use it for streaming. Only a few artists that aren't available in the XBM library are on my phone.
    You have your answer. The focus was put on streaming first. I and others here use XBM with local music and it's a mess... less and less, but a mess nevertheless.
    06-19-2014 09:03 AM
  21. dlalonde's Avatar
    You don't remember why it was slow,do you?
    No I was young then. Why was it slow?
    06-19-2014 09:04 AM
  22. HAMEDACC's Avatar
    I think World of Technology is going to be divided to:
    - Low Quality Product with week Support which causes Cheap One
    and
    - High Quality Product with Strong Support which causes Expensive One
    and World Technology Market needs Both of them, and I think MS has been chosen the First part
    06-19-2014 09:26 AM
  23. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    Microsoft has ruled the computer world in the 90's right up until Mac OS X came out. Until that point, they called the shots, they decided what was good and bad. IE was the most liked browser in comparison to Netscape and AOL.

    Then Apple released Mac OS X. For the first time, an OS wasn't just useful, it was beautiful. Shortly before, Apple started releasing computer with colours, moking their beige PC counterparts.

    During that time, Microsoft released Windows XP which, at the beginning, got a lot of hatred. Then they got working on Windows Longhorn which was supposed to be XP's successor. But when they saw how popular Mac was becoming, they scrapped it and started from scratch which made Vista come out 5 years after XP... and fully slowed down and buggy.

    They managed to get things right 3 years later with Windows 7 but then they acted like they were calling the shots like in the 90's and thought "We'll make this OS that's aimed entirely at touch screens!". So they took the very good product that was Windows 7, removed the start menu and button (!!!) and changed the desktop from the center of the OS to a plain app thinking people would just adapt... but people get confused when their browser gets updated and looks a little different... so imagine a whole OS!

    Again, they realized they made a mistake that they tried to fix with Windows 8.1.

    Sadly, the same pattern applies with Xbox Music on Windows Phone 8.1. You had a great music player called the Zune. From Zune to the Music+Video hub, they lost functionnalities (gapless playback, FM radio, etc.). But then Microsoft decides they want to add functionnalities on Xbox Music more often and include streaming so, again, they scrap the whole thing and start from sratch and they release it in the wild fully buggy and slowed...

    Microsoft should really stop scrapping things and starting over. Everytime it takes immense amount of time to correct and they're always set back after their competition. Sometimes it's the best thing to scrap and start over indeed... but if you do that, you have to make sure the product you're putting out is superior to the previous one and your competitors... not worst.
    Honestly, your history is a little off. You kind of lost me in the first sentence when you imply that OSX was so groundbreaking that it caused MS to get tripped up.

    OSX had no noticeable impact on Microsoft at that time and to this day that is basically still the case. MS did scrap many *parts* of Longhorn, but it wasn't because of anything that Apple was doing. It was because some of the technical goals turned out to be more complicated than anticipated and because MS was suddenly having to alter their software to comply with government restrictions due to their new Monopoly status. Also, during those years between XP and 7, Microsoft was heavily focused on the enterprise and modern development tools (which was a very successful effort).

    The idea that MS had little or no competition in the 80's and 90's is not accurate either. They were up against huge (at the time) and established companies like IBM, HP, Novell, SCO, and Oracle. They eventually won most of those battles and Windows, Office, etc. became the "standards", but it certainly wasn't a competition free environment. If anything, the competition was much more brutal than today and in many of those fights MS was the underdog.

    As far as Windows 8, that isn't really "starting over" any more than Windows Vista or Windows XP were starting over. It is change designed to keep up with constantly evolving technology. Windows 8 is basically Windows 7 + touch apps and a touch optimized start menu. I realize that a lot of people haven't handled that amount of change well (much like they didn't with Vista and XP), but keeping things stagnant to make all the change-adverse people out there happy is a sure way to fail in the technology industry. Anyway, my point is that they didn't "restart" with Windows 8. It is almost completely backward compatible with Windows 7 (more so than nearly any previous version change).

    I agree with your Xbox Music example though. I wish they had just rebranded Zune and used that as a starting point.

    Anyway, I agree with your overall premise that MS should commit to their goals more often than they have. I just don't think some of the history or examples you gave are accurate. However, MS releases a lot of products. Much more than most people are aware of. Microsoft is unique in that they compete in nearly every realm of computer technology and they are in first, second, or third place in each. Nearly all of their competitors only compete in 2 or 3 major areas of computer technology. They have certainly made some missteps over the years, but it's like the saying goes...

    "Show me someone that has never made a mistake and I'll show you someone that has never done anything."
    Last edited by Cleavitt76; 06-19-2014 at 11:36 AM.
    06-19-2014 11:21 AM
  24. Reflexx's Avatar
    I think part of this was due to the old "stack ranking" system they had in place for evaluating and promoting employees at Microsoft (at a lot of other tech companies).

    It rewarded a lot of individual performance, but it discouraged teamwork. So pretty much everyone tried to do their own thing and make it "the thing".

    Now that MS has abandoned that method of evaluating employees and adopted "One Microsoft", they are reassessing everything. They're looking at some stuff that worked, but really wasn't built to grow in cooperation with others.

    They're in the process of trying to not only reorganize their personnel structure, they're reorganizing the way their software is written. It's supposed to play nicely with other departments.

    Over time, this will make it incredibly strong. However, the disadvantage with having to cooperate with so many others is that things move more slowly than if you only had to worry about your own department.
    06-19-2014 11:45 AM
  25. dlalonde's Avatar
    Honestly, your history is a little off. You kind of lost me in the first sentence when you imply that OSX was so groundbreaking that it caused MS to get tripped up.

    OSX had no noticeable impact on Microsoft at that time and to this day that is basically still the case. MS did scrap many *parts* of Longhorn, but it wasn't because of anything that Apple was doing. It was because some of the technical goals turned out to be more complicated than anticipated and because MS was suddenly having to alter their software to comply with government restrictions due to their new Monopoly status. Also, during those years between XP and 7, Microsoft was heavily focused on the enterprise and modern development tools (which was a very successful effort).

    The idea that MS had little or no competition in the 80's and 90's is not accurate either. They were up against huge (at the time) and established companies like IBM, HP, Novell, SCO, and Oracle. They eventually won most of those battles and Windows, Office, etc. became the "standards", but it certainly wasn't a competition free environment. If anything, the competition was much more brutal than today and in many of those fights MS was the underdog.

    As far as Windows 8, that isn't really "starting over" any more than Windows Vista or Windows XP were starting over. It is change designed to keep up with constantly evolving technology. Windows 8 is basically Windows 7 + touch apps and a touch optimized start menu. I realize that a lot of people haven't handled that amount of change well (much like they didn't with Vista and XP), but keeping things stagnant to make all the change-adverse people out there happy is a sure way to fail in the technology industry. Anyway, my point is that they didn't "restart" with Windows 8. It is almost completely backward compatible with Windows 7 (more so than nearly any previous version change).

    I agree with your Xbox Music example though. I wish they had just rebranded Zune and used that as a starting point.

    Anyway, I agree with your overall premise that MS should commit to their goals more often than they have. I just don't think some of the history or examples you gave are accurate. However, MS releases a lot of products. Much more than most people are aware of. Microsoft is unique in that they compete in nearly every realm of computer technology and they are in first, second, or third place in each. Nearly all of their competitors only compete in 2 or 3 major areas of computer technology. They have certainly made some missteps over the years, but it's like the saying goes...

    "Show me someone that has never made a mistake and I'll show you someone that has never done anything."
    We'd have to compare sources. Because I remember reading otherwise at the time. Plus, Mac OS X was highly successful compared to earlier versions as it was the first time Mac OS was no longer seen as a closed "incompatible with PCs" machine but rather a full personal computer (in the purest meaning of the word). Plus, it's undeniable that much of the graphical interface from Vista as well as some software are copied over, or at least highly inspired, from Mac OS X. That part is a fact. The rest, like I said, we'd have to check with our respective sources to know who's right. But it's a little pointless overall.

    As far as Longhorn, I've read in the past (and just confirmed here) that it wasn't just "some parts" of it but rather that "Longhorn OS that was abandoned after years of development and almost entirely rewritten for release as Windows Vista."

    In the 90's, of course there were other players like IBM, HP, Novell, SCO and Oracle, I'm not saying otherwise. I was talking about home users, not companies. But I do understand how I was vague about this. In the 90's, not many households had systems based on something else than Windows 3.11, 95, 98 and so on.

    For Windows 8, take everyday ends users and remove their main screen (the desktop) to show them a new screen by default, relegating the desktop to an app that you have to find at first with no obvious ways of going back to the start screen, that's called starting over. What Microsoft tried to do with Windows 8 was to focus on touch screens in which the desktop is less useful. But they went too fast and all over the place, hence de heavy criticism. I'm not saying they rewrote their OS. I'm saying they tried to change the system so the desktop would be replaced by the start screen. For people who don't use computers that often or who don't like change (there are a lot) that was like starting over. It was like saying "You know the desktop with the start menu you've been using for 20 years? Well now it's gone. Deal with it".
    Tom Snyder likes this.
    06-19-2014 12:18 PM
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