07-01-2014 01:13 PM
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  1. BataBole's Avatar
    Also, it may be that I don't deal in international black market software, but what organizations are you supporting by stealing Windows? I don't necessarily think that the Bosnia and Herzegovina mafia is selling these pirated copies.
    When you say software mafia in Bosnia it means ordinary people. There is no organized groups or black markets. Ordinary people are selling pirated copies. Anyone can.
    06-23-2014 12:58 AM
  2. jojoe42's Avatar
    May I just add that the logic behind rather having a free Windows version with revenue earned off ads/IAP/services is probably the logic behind this apparent 'Bing with Windows' version MSFT is going to release sooner or later - it's a good compromise. The cost of some software (cough Adobe CS cough) is a bit higher than it should be, but do remember, companies still need to pay hundreds developers and programmers to maintain the support/fix bugs in the software, and no matter how many advances are made per version that cost (along with others) will always remain constant
    Laura Knotek and SRoshan143 like this.
    06-23-2014 01:52 AM
  3. RichardBurt's Avatar
    BataBole. To claim that Bosnia has no piracy laws is simply false. As is your claim that there is no organized groups or black markets.

    Bosnia Vows To Crack Pirate Mentality :: Balkan Insight
    SSgt Bruskowiz likes this.
    06-23-2014 02:05 AM
  4. SSgt Bruskowiz's Avatar
    Just as I said....its stil Europe and European law.
    The only exception was the Netherlands. They were the last ones who were allowed but only for educational purposes and home use....but that is already eh.....corrected by the European board.
    06-23-2014 02:25 AM
  5. RStall's Avatar
    Yeah, you are wrong. Theoretically, that can get you fined for tens of thousands of dollars.

    However, software companies don't really go after the 'little guys'. People that make money off of pirated software usually sell quite a lot of copies, and some of the purchasers don't even realize that they aren't getting legitimate licenses. Those are the guys the software companies go after.
    No sir, people make "backups" of their media all the time with no penalty. Companies go after people who see copies of pirated media all day long. Its one of those slippery slopes that came around after all those copyright laws. Companies have found ways to get around that with licenses, drms, etc but as a rule you aren't getting fined for that. If so all these sites would be shut down immediately
    06-23-2014 02:29 AM
  6. ivdza's Avatar
    Here are the prices from official retailer in Serbia. Note tha 1 is 115 dinars.

    http://www.comtradeshop.com/operativni_sistemi
    06-23-2014 03:09 AM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    No sir, people make "backups" of their media all the time with no penalty.
    Making a backup has absolutely nothing to do with piracy. Nothing. Copying something is legal. Giving that copy to someone else is when it becomes piracy.

    Also note my use of the word 'theoretically' in my post you quoted. It seems to me that you are arguing the same point.
    06-23-2014 04:27 AM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    I disagree with all those people making the 'if you can't afford it then save up argument'. If that is your opinion, you have not fully understood the situation.

    In Bosnia, the price of a Windows licence equates to about half of an M.D. 's monthly income. In the U.S. an M.D. earns on average 15'000 a month. So, imagine a Windows Pro licence costing $7500 a pop?

    How many of us would honestly save up for that? Obviously none of us would. We'd all be using Linux... or pirating.

    The problem with using Linux is that most of the world uses Windows, and being a small country in eastern Europe you can't just ignore what the rest of the world is doing.

    So, the 'save up' argument isn't realistic. So, the question becomes, what is?
    06-23-2014 05:07 AM
  9. feal87's Avatar
    I disagree with all those people making the 'if you can't afford it then save up argument'. If that is your opinion, you have not fully understood the situation.

    In Bosnia, the price of a Windows licence equates to about half of an M.D. 's monthly income. In the U.S. an M.D. earns on average 15'000 a month. So, imagine a Windows Pro licence costing $7500 a pop?

    How many of us would honestly save up for that? Obviously none of us would. We'd all be using Linux... or pirating.

    The problem with using Linux is that most of the world uses Windows, and being a small country in eastern Europe you can't just ignore what the rest of the world is doing.

    So, the 'save up' argument isn't realistic. So, the question becomes, what is?
    Are you serious? Bosnia's average salary ranges between 8000 and 10000 NET dollars per year. That's far away from your estimates. ;)
    06-23-2014 05:29 AM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    Are you serious? Bosnia's average salary ranges between 8000 and 10000 NET dollars per year. That's far away from your estimates. ;)
    If you would have read the whole thread, you'd have realized I'm going by the numbers provided by the OP. You probably also would have realized that we're talking about an average monthly wage, not an a average annual wage like you are. So $700 a month gives us $8400 annually... pretty much what you suggested. I'd say your attempt to look smart backfired.

    Still, if your numbers are correct, an M.D. will likely earn more than $700 a month. Please take that up with the OP.

    Overall though, I don't think your post adds anything to the discussion, because the basic point still stands. Taking your numbers as an average wage, the comparative price for a Windows 8 license in the U.S. would still be $1430 (based on an average U.S. income of $43000).

    I doubt many here would save up to spend $1430 on a Windows license.
    06-23-2014 06:55 AM
  11. tgp's Avatar
    I doubt many here would save up to spend $1430 on a Windows license.
    I know I wouldn't! I'm not a big Linux fan, but at prices like that I'd become one real quick!

    Just something to throw out here; what would happen if a software company, Microsoft for example, would go after someone in a country with a lower average income. How would the user pay the fine? What would be the point of chasing them down? To make them stop using Windows? Now, I'm not condoning pirating in any way. I too believe it's not right. But in real life the chances of someone like that being prosecuted are slim to none.
    a5cent likes this.
    06-23-2014 07:07 AM
  12. Chregu's Avatar
    In Switzerland download of music and movies is allowed for personal use. Upload is however illegal.

    I don't download music as I have a Spotify Premium subscription, I do however download movies from times to times (but I also go to the cinema often).

    Downloading software is illegal, and I buy all my software anyway (except the software my university paid for).
    06-23-2014 07:34 AM
  13. Rogozinski's Avatar
    I'm from Bosnia&Herzegovina, but piracy is also allowed in Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro etc.
    In Croatia and Slovenia not, since they are members of the E.U. ;)
    06-23-2014 07:37 AM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    I know I wouldn't! I'm not a big Linux fan, but at prices like that I'd become one real quick
    Exactly. I'd say the same. We can preach about morality as much as we want. At the end of the day we need a realistic solution that works. We all know that telling U.S. citizens to save up 1430.- for a Windows license wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of working. Expecting others to do that introduces a double standard. That is not fair. Of course, piracy isn't the solution either.

    So again, what is?

    The prices for a Windows license in Bosnia seem very high to me. Could it be that government institutions and corporations pay more to MS for official licenses, as a way to compensate for widespread consumer level piracy?
    ronty likes this.
    06-23-2014 07:38 AM
  15. Jazmac's Avatar
    I'm from Bosnia&Herzegovina, but piracy is also allowed in Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro etc.
    Not knowing right from wrong to steal is legal in Bosnia/Herzegovina? I think we've found where Nirvana moved. What's B&E get you in Bosnia/Herzegovina? Snooze you lose?
    06-23-2014 08:03 AM
  16. Chregu's Avatar
    Not knowing right from wrong to steal is legal in Bosnia/Herzegovina? I think we've found where Nirvana moved. What's B&E get you in Bosnia/Herzegovina? Snooze you lose?
    Apart from everything else that was said (it actually seems to be illegal, it's just not enforced): If it's not illegal, it's not stealing, at least as long as we accept the autonomy of countries and their laws. Are you Russian by any chance?
    06-23-2014 08:08 AM
  17. MDMcAtee's Avatar
    It's not like that, you have to understand that there are many countries where people lives with very low salaries, and it's hard to justify spending half what you earn in a month buying a copy of Windows. Normally the prices are higher for software and technology in third world countries..... imagine if you're a uni student it is almost impossible to cover the cost in software alone...
    I'm sorry,but it is exactly like that.

    There is no gray area here.

    If a person chooses to steal what they do not legally own,it is theft plain and simple.

    You can try to justify it however you want,but that doesn't change anything.

    Each individual in this world has to decide if they are going to be honest,regardless of where they live,or what their financial circumstances are.

    We are not discussing a matter of life and death here,we are discussing pirating software that is not legally owned.

    Quite frankly I am surprised by those here that feel this practice is somehow justified because they cannot afford to pay for this,and that they have no worries because it is not enforced in their area. These same people complain about how expensive this is,and then wonder why.
    06-23-2014 08:18 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    If it's not illegal, it's not stealing
    Depends on whether you are making a legal or moral argument. Morally it can still be stealing, even if ut isn't legally.

    Either way, it is certain that it is illegal. The state couldn't have fined a citizen for 195000 if it wasn't.
    Chregu and Jazmac like this.
    06-23-2014 08:21 AM
  19. Chregu's Avatar
    Depends on whether you are making a legal or moral argument. Morally it can still be stealing, even if ut isn't legally.

    Either way, it is certain that it is illegal. The state couldn't have fined a citizen for 195000 if it wasn't.
    I'm making a legal argument. If we go into morality, I think we can discuss forever. (And you said it's illegal in your first post, I guess the quoted poster just didn't read on before making his statement.)

    Just as an example: Is it right for a company to earn billions with a product because this company has a monopoly an can sell the said software for a very high price? I prefer to leave these kinds of discussions to other people ;-)
    a5cent likes this.
    06-23-2014 08:27 AM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    Quite frankly I am surprised by those here that feel this practice is somehow justified because they cannot afford to pay for this,and that they have no worries because it is not enforced in their area. These same people complain about how expensive this is,and then wonder why.
    IMHO this discussion has moved passed the question of whether stealing is justified. It isn't, and you are obviously correct that copyright infringement is morally corrupt. IMHO the problem with your point of view is that it is driven entirely by ideology, rather than practicality. If we're going to take a rigid ideological stand, the only reasonable thing to do would be to fine every last Bosnian out of the last few dollars they own, while telling them that they should have saved up for a legal copy, which they just can't realistically afford.

    With that you'll have stopped piracy. Great. You'll also have turned Bosnia into a country where not a single consumer uses Windows, and in time, as the working population becomes more proficient with Linux than Windows, the government institutions and corporations will also switch. Basically, your good intentions will have turned all participants into losers, including MS. You'll have killed the last bit of revenue MS generates in Bosnia, and worse, you'll have forced an entire population that is proficient with Windows to use and become proficient with a competing product, while making most of them rabid MS haters.

    IMHO we always have two choices: remain ideologically pure, or find a solution that actually works.
    Chregu, Jas00555 and Reflexx like this.
    06-23-2014 08:51 AM
  21. Jazmac's Avatar
    Apart from everything else that was said (it actually seems to be illegal, it's just not enforced): If it's not illegal, it's not stealing, at least as long as we accept the autonomy of countries and their laws. Are you Russian by any chance?
    Look, doesn't matter if it is direct or tacit. That is the definition of theft. You didn't pay for a license to use it and you use a crack to get it to work. Its Theft. Doesn't matter where I'm from. Its theft all over the world.
    06-23-2014 08:59 AM
  22. Karthik Naik's Avatar
    if companies gave countries other than the US/UK the same rates as US/UK and all their services,piracy wouldnt exist
    a fine example is the PS4,costs $400 in USA,costs $950 in my country that is why people dont buy it or try getting "grey" market goods etc or get a pc and pirate
    06-23-2014 09:49 AM
  23. BataBole's Avatar
    Ok everybody, first of all sorry for my bad English, I'm trying to not make mistakes.

    Second, piracy in Bosnia and Herzegovina is forbidden but not enforced. So we are allowed to download everything freely.

    Third, medical doctors do have average salary of 600-700$ by month in Bosnia. So we can't take half of our salary to buy some genuine product. People gotta feed kids, family, there are bills to pay every month (water, electricity) etc. Have in mind that everything here is much more expensive than it is in US.

    Fourth, here is another example. Few months ago licenced Apple store is opened in my city. Few days ago it was closed. Why? Because iPhone 5 was 900$ and iPhone 5s 1100$, iPhone 5s gold 1500$ with no contract. Imagine the medical doctors buying 5s!
    But iPhones are still a victim of piracy here. We have black markets where you can get iPhone 5 for 200$.

    Believe it or not, I have paid my HTC 8s 250$ in licenced store.

    I wanted to buy myself Surface RT when it came out but it is to expensive, in range of iPhone 5s gold. I mean it is to much for just an RT version.

    Office 2013 per license cost 300$.
    And what you get? Only Word, Excel, PowerPoint?!

    What I wanna say is that the high prices are the main reason for piracy here. Again, I'm not supporting it but I am pirating and I will until those prices get way down low!

    Cheers!
    06-23-2014 09:51 AM
  24. Chregu's Avatar
    Look, doesn't matter if it is direct or tacit. That is the definition of theft. You didn't pay for a license to use it and you use a crack to get it to work. Its Theft. Doesn't matter where I'm from. Its theft all over the world.
    As you can see on this Wikipedia page, theft is defined differently from country to country. You are of course free to make your own definition and try to force it on everybody, it's just that nobody will care.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft#By_country
    06-23-2014 09:51 AM
  25. SSgt Bruskowiz's Avatar

    Second, piracy in Bosnia and Herzegovina is forbidden but not enforced. So we are allowed to download everything freely.

    Third, medical doctors do have average salary of 600-700$ by month in Bosnia. So we can't take half of our salary to buy some genuine product. People gotta feed kids, family, there are bills to pay every month (water, electricity) etc. Have in mind that everything here is much more expensive than it is in US.

    I wanted to buy myself Surface RT when it came out but it is to expensive, in range of iPhone 5s gold. I mean it is to much for just an RT version.

    Office 2013 per license cost 300$.
    And what you get? Only Word, Excel, PowerPoint?!

    What I wanna say is that the high prices are the main reason for piracy here. Again, I'm not supporting it but I am pirating and I will until those prices get way down low!

    Cheers!
    I know wat you mean, and i agree.
    But in the balkan they have internet, webstores and ebay.....
    Shopping across the border is not illegal.
    No matter wat you earn, it doesnt make it right to steel.
    But i can understand your reasoning.


    Second, piracy in Bosnia and Herzegovina is forbidden but not enforced. So we are allowed to download everything freely.
    Steeling a bike here is also not enforced ( only wen caught in the act) that stil doesnt make it right.
    Guytronic likes this.
    06-23-2014 10:58 AM
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