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07-01-2014 01:13 PM
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  1. a5cent's Avatar
    As you can see on this Wikipedia page, theft is defined differently from country to country. You are of course free to make your own definition and try to force it on everybody, it's just that nobody will care.
    While we are at it, we can also throw in that it is largely a result of the MPAA's marketing campaign...



    ...that a large portion of the U.S. population equates copyright infringement with theft/stealing. Even I do that occasionally, but strictly speaking it's a pile of baloney. The definition of theft or stealing implies that the original owner no longer has access to whatever was stolen. For example, if I steal your car, you can no longer drive it. That isn't true of software piracy. That is why piracy is actually neither stealing nor theft. It is copyright infringement, and while that is not the same thing, 'theft' or 'stealing' just have a better affect if you're trying to influence people who aren't lawyers.

    Still, like I said, I don't think this is a worthwhile debate. Essentially everyone agrees that stealing, theft and even copyright infringement are all bad things. It's not fair. It's freeloading. It's morally corrupt. But just pointing fingers and claiming the moral high ground is useless if you don't have a solution.

    If pointing fingers is all you can do, you're part of the problem. The debate should be about how the situation can be dealt with so everyone is a winner, the population of Bosnia Herzegovina and MS.
    06-23-2014 11:08 AM
  2. Kevin N Smith's Avatar
    I pirate things if I feel the developer or company is asking too much for the software. For example, with Windows 7, I think $300+ is outrageous for a slightly major update from Vista. Then, I pirate it. In the case of, for example, some more recent Mac OSX Versions, I always buy it (19.99) because I feel the dev[s] isn't scamming customers by charging outrageous prices for it.
    06-23-2014 01:06 PM
  3. fatclue_98's Avatar
    This is not about ideology or morality. We're not talking about food or medicine, we're talking software. If my child needs blood and you're a match but don't want to give it up, what do you think I'm going to do? No brainer right? I think we can all agree on that one regardless of your socioeconomic position.

    Software piracy is stealing from a person or company who depends on those revenues to support a family or a payroll. Medicine is socialized across most of Europe and doctors and pharmacists will get their paper from the government. Not so with software. It's us poor saps that pay for software who end up footing the bill by paying higher prices because of said piracy.

    Want to talk to me about stealing food to feed the hungry? I'm with you all the way. Software, uh no.
    Guytronic and twentythreee like this.
    06-23-2014 01:23 PM
  4. paulsalter's Avatar
    if companies gave countries other than the US/UK the same rates as US/UK and all their services,piracy wouldnt exist
    a fine example is the PS4,costs $400 in USA,costs $950 in my country that is why people dont buy it or try getting "grey" market goods etc or get a pc and pirate
    If only the UK did get these bargains you say, PS4 in UK is around 350 which is just under $600, 50% more than the US
    06-23-2014 01:30 PM
  5. a5cent's Avatar
    This is not about ideology or morality. We're not talking about food or medicine, we're talking software.



    It's us poor saps that pay for software who end up footing the bill by paying higher prices because of said piracy.
    1)
    I already explained why legally piracy is not stealing.

    2)
    I think you are somewhat twisting the moral/ideological argument. This was never about whether access to software is a basic human right, like food. Obviously it is not. It was about whether strict adherence to (and enforcement of) a moral codex results in the best possible outcome for MS. As far as I can tell it doesn't. Forcing every consumer in Bosnia to use Linux is not in MS' best interest, but that seems to be the only logical consequence of strictly enforcing what would be moral.

    3)
    Your last point sounds right, but it's just not true in reality. We aren't paying higher prices for software than we otherwise would, because even if we made it impossible for Bosnians to pirate Windows, that wouldn't result in a single extra dime going into MS' pockets. At least not without MS drastically reducing the price of a Windows license in Bosnia, so as to make it affordable, but it appears MS does the opposite.
    Jas00555, Chregu and ronty like this.
    06-23-2014 02:13 PM
  6. Vitor Salvatore Pierce's Avatar
    Here in Brazil it is forbidden just distribute....
    But both are crimes. But it turns out that the Brazilian police do not give a ****.
    06-23-2014 03:08 PM
  7. fatclue_98's Avatar
    1)
    I already explained why legally piracy is not stealing.

    2)
    I think you are somewhat twisting the moral/ideological argument. This was never about whether access to software is a basic human right, like food. Obviously it is not. It was about whether strict adherence to (and enforcement of) a moral codex results in the best possible outcome for MS. As far as I can tell it doesn't. Forcing every consumer in Bosnia to use Linux is not in MS' best interest, but that seems to be the only logical consequence of strictly enforcing what would be moral.

    3)
    Your last point sounds right, but it's just not true in reality. We aren't paying higher prices for software than we otherwise would, because even if we made it impossible for Bosnians to pirate Windows, that wouldn't result in a single extra dime going into MS' pockets. At least not without MS drastically reducing the price of a Windows license in Bosnia, so as to make it affordable, but it appears MS does the opposite.
    I wasn't trying to twist anything, in fact I believe I was clarifying the point. As far as your view on piracy, we'll agree to disagree. Taking something that is being offered for sale and getting it without paying the seller without his consent is stealing. There is just no way around that.
    06-23-2014 03:12 PM
  8. Reflexx's Avatar
    I largely agree with a5cent. Though I would substitute his use of "moral" with "ethical".

    The challenge with piracy isn't about vilifying those living in 3rd world countries. That's just the reality of how things are there.

    A business really needs to look at the reality and see how they can best serve all customers that want to use their product.

    Ideally, every person in every country could afford to save enough money to buy your product. Realistically that is not the case. A regular citizen in Bosnia is not going to spend a month's wages to get Windows unless they really really really need a legitimate copy for business reasons.

    I think the way that most enforcement seems to work right now in 3rd world countries is that they check businesses. Basically, if you are earning a significant amount of money using my product, then you should pay for it.

    For regular citizens, they turn a blind eye. I would venture to guess that they actually see it as a positive in many cases where your goal is to get a large portion of the population trained to use your product. These citizens would never end up paying you for it regardless, but if they are trained in it then it becomes the standard that businesses will want to use. And those businesses can more easily be forced to pay.

    I heard from a representative from a company that makes a very expensive software product. As in... several thousand dollars. That rep admitted that they really didn't care when students pirated their software for the purpose of learning because the more people that knew how to use it, the better it was for their business. But they could never officially say that of course.

    Software piracy is technically a violation of business ethics. But as a business, it's your job to look at the big picture and pick your battles.
    a5cent and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-23-2014 03:13 PM
  9. Vitor Salvatore Pierce's Avatar
    And guys, Windows 8.1 Pro costs 180 dollars.
    And the minimum salary is 320 dollars (Actually, people win 500 dollars)
    Really .... I think that I do not have nothing to say after that.
    06-23-2014 03:13 PM
  10. Chregu's Avatar
    This is not about ideology or morality. We're not talking about food or medicine, we're talking software. If my child needs blood and you're a match but don't want to give it up, what do you think I'm going to do? No brainer right?
    I have, as so often, no idea what you are talking about and hence what you would going to do. But if you are implying that you would take this person's blood forcefully, that would be aggravated battery and it would be right in every way that you'd rot in prison.

    It's everybody's own decision if he or she wants to donate blood or not.

    I'm glade you actually have nothing to decide in law, or else this would become a real mess very soon. Deciding when violence and stealing is right or not just to your own taste has nothing to do with justice, it is lynchlaw.

    Also, your black and white world might not be as black and white as you think:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/29/op...pagewanted=all
    ronty likes this.
    06-23-2014 03:26 PM
  11. fatclue_98's Avatar
    ^ As usual you take a comment, any comment, and spray your righteousness all over it. I have neither the time or inclination to get into an argument with you at every turn. Enjoy my ignore list.
    Sent from my Ativ S Neo using Tapatalk
    06-23-2014 03:33 PM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    As far as your view on piracy, we'll agree to disagree.
    I think we agree for the most part. Most importantly we agree that piracy just ain't right.

    The exception is likely only over the definition of the word 'stealing', where we can agree to disagree. I'll leave that to lawyers and English language specialists.

    What I don't see is how you would solve the piracy problem. Just saying it's bad doesn't change much. To me it sounds like you'd just persecute left and right, which would turn everyone, including MS, into losers.
    Guytronic and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-23-2014 03:39 PM
  13. Chregu's Avatar
    ^ As usual you take a comment, any comment, and spray your righteousness all over it. I have neither the time or inclination to get into an argument with you at every turn. Enjoy my ignore list.
    You have every right to represent your cracker-barrel mentality, but you also have to accept people disagreeing. And I might be a little touchy in this regard, as in Switzerland are forces at work trying to destabilize and undermine our state of law.

    But then again, as you've decided to ignore me, it probably doesn't matter me trying to explain this to you.
    06-23-2014 03:44 PM
  14. fatclue_98's Avatar
    a5cent:

    I'll concede "stealing" to you only if you agree that Sofia Vergara is the hottest babe on the planet. ;-)


    Sent from my Ativ S Neo using Tapatalk
    Guytronic likes this.
    06-23-2014 03:45 PM
  15. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Sorry...but if you are advocating the practices and actively using pirated software then you are supporting it regardless what your financial circumstance happen to be.

    As what has been said...theft is theft
    I'm not supporting it, but let's remember that it's far better for Microsoft that someone who can't afford a Windows licence (which is simply beyond the reach of many - a problem that Microsoft choose not to address) uses a pirated version of Windows, than that they use Linux...
    06-23-2014 03:50 PM
  16. DJCBS's Avatar
    Well, enjoy it while it lasts because if your country has any intention of ever doing business with any other European country, the "legality" of piracy will go away in an instance. No one wants to have their products sold in a country where people can, basically, steal it (since you're taking possession of something that isn't yours and you don't pay the creator for it).

    Now, piracy: everyone does. EVERYONE. Including policeman, artists, politicians.
    Within Europe piracy laws aren't all the same. But there's a common agreement: the act to piracy consists in making money out of the works of others illegitimately. So if I download a CD and replicate it and then resell it, THAT is piracy. I'm making money out of the works of others.

    However, when it comes to copies of things that one owns, it gets greyer and a hell of a lot muddier for the law. You CAN make copies of the things you buy. The last country that didn't had a private copy law was the UK (to my knowledge) and they've finally created that.
    So I CAN pick a CD I bought and rip it either to put the songs on an mp3 player or to produce, for example, a copy of it to use in the car. And who's to prevent me from picking up my copy, that I legally made, and lend it to a friend? No one. Technically you are allowed to do that since you own that product and you're free to do with it whatever the hell you want. Even burn it. It's your property.

    You can see why piracy is such a legal mess, then, when you add the new technologies to it. Because the same thing can apply to online services. I can rip a film into my computer to see it there or upload it to a cloud storage to then download it somewhere else. It's my property.
    Enter the sharing communities. Just like you can share a book with a friend, so can you share a movie. The problem is: when with a physical copy of something you temporarily lose the property of it, with a digital file you can keep your copy and still send it to your friend.

    It's a nightmare to judge these things in court. Which is why seldom anyone is persecuted for sharing something online. The case, however, changes, when they do it for money. So if you are monetizing through the sharing of files, then you're pirating. That's why they normally go after the Kim Dot Com's and the Pirate Bays, etc. They don't try to go after the users (they'd be mad to even try that. They'd have to bring MILLIONS of people to court) but after those who monetize from the activity.

    But wait: it gets muddier.

    Enter the ISP's and carriers. Both PROFIT from people "pirating" stuff. No one would need unlimited data plans or ultra fast speeds of internet to send emails and play Farmville. ISPs and carriers do incentive piracy by providing the means to the customers.

    The major problem is this: companies were accustomed to the old ways where they could charge a lot for products. The music industry was used to charge you 20€ for a CD that you'd have to buy even if you only wanted one song. And people got tired of that and started downloading them without paying because they KNEW they were being ripped off. Have you notices how so few artists nowadays complain about piracy? That's because the artists themselves were being exploited by the producing companies. That's why some even started to release their songs independently, directly to the consumer. Some even say the consumer can pay for the album what they deem fair.
    Same problem with the film industry. Hollywood was accustomed to make hundreds of millions by tricking people into watching whatever they released even if it was crap. Except nowadays people can see the film without being robbed by a cinema. I, for example, refuse to pay 8€ for a film ticket to see a film ONCE when the Blu-Ray will cost me 10€ or 14€ and I'll watch it the amount of times I wish.
    That's why nowadays the film industry is searching for alternatives.
    And then there's the fact that often "pirates" turn into customers.
    Take HBO's Game of Thrones for example. It's the MOST pirated show of all time. You know what HBO's producers said? That they didn't care, that they felt flattered. Why? Because also a ton of people ended up subscribing to HBO. Or then buy the Blu-Rays when they come out.

    I, personally, seldom - but very seldom - pirate. Nowadays the only thing I download are TV shows so I don't have to wait months before they're aired here IF they're aired at all. So I normally download the episodes to watch them as they're being aired. Then, when the Blu-Rays are released, I buy the blu-ray and delete the files.
    I also used to do that with music, but with things like Spotify and Xbox Music I no longer need. I listen to the CDs for free on those services. Then if I like the CD, I buy it (I personally prefer physical copies. I don't buy digital music). The day I can do that with films and TV shows (because, say, Netflix starts offering their services here etc, I'll also gladly stop downloading them).

    As for software, both Windows and Office are legit. But then again, I seldom pay a lot for them because I get them from a friend at Microsoft that has the employers discounts. Otherwise I wouldn't, for example, have upgraded from Windows 7 to Windows 8.1 nor from Office 2003 to Office 2013. Both W7 and O2003 did all I needed them to do. But because I could legally get the new versions for a cheaper price, I did. But I would never pay 130€ every time Microsoft releases a new version of Office or Windows. And lots of others don't too and Microsoft knows that. They know people normally only upgrade those things when they buy new PCs. Which is why the "Windows with Bing" was created. Which is why Apple is now offering the updates to OSX. I think we'll also watch a similar revolution in software as we did in music.
    Laura Knotek, ivdza and BataBole like this.
    06-23-2014 03:51 PM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    a5cent:

    I'll concede "stealing" to you only if you agree that Sofia Vergara is the hottest babe on the planet. ;-)
    lol, does it count if I say she's tied for first place with my fiancee?
    Guytronic likes this.
    06-23-2014 03:54 PM
  18. fatclue_98's Avatar
    lol, does it count if I say she's tied for first place with my fiancee?
    Your honey obviously reads these boards. Good job, you've got rule #1 for a happy marriage down pat.
    a5cent likes this.
    06-23-2014 04:03 PM
  19. k0de's Avatar
    When you say software mafia in Bosnia it means ordinary people. There is no organized groups or black markets. Ordinary people are selling pirated copies. Anyone can.
    Right... Believe it. Behind every huge operation there is a mastermind running the show behind the scenes.
    06-23-2014 04:03 PM
  20. k0de's Avatar
    Excellent thread, Now all Windows Phones users should follow the non morality and illegal examples mentioned on this thread and pirate iOS, Android and Linux and cripple their ecosystem. Lol

    Ill get it of the ground. Ill be the mastermind behind it all. Oops did I say that?
    Last edited by k0de; 06-23-2014 at 04:42 PM.
    06-23-2014 04:07 PM
  21. anony_mouse's Avatar
    I'm not defending piracy, but I can tell you that most international companies do plenty of business with Bosnia and other countries with a high instance of software and media piracy. They are often the fastest growing and most interesting markets. The idea that these countries are pariah states cut off from the world of business is simply untrue.

    For example, check out the list of countries that get their own local website from these major companies:
    Microsoft Change locale
    Or more impressively, but sadly missing Bosnia and Herzegovina:
    SAMSUNG
    k0de likes this.
    06-23-2014 04:20 PM
  22. k0de's Avatar
    I'm not defending piracy, but I can tell you that most international companies do plenty of business with Bosnia and other countries with a high instance of software and media piracy. They are often the fastest growing and most interesting markets. The idea that these countries are pariah states cut off from the world of business is simply untrue.

    For example, check out the list of countries that get their own local website from these major companies:
    Microsoft Change locale
    Or more impressively, but sadly missing Bosnia and Herzegovina:
    SAMSUNG
    Why would MSFT miss Bosnia and Herzegovina? I can't follow. Please elaborate, Thanks
    06-23-2014 04:29 PM
  23. twentythreee's Avatar
    Funny, that not a single software developer wrote here yet.
    I for myself make my living with the software I develop and sell (mostly on Windows and Windows Phone).

    Regardless of whether you think it's theft or piracy or whatever you like to call it when you use my software without paying for it,
    I would punch you in the face when I see you on the street. No matter which ******* country you are from or how much you earn.

    You don't want to spend your hard earned money because you are sooo poor anyway?
    Well, what about this perspective: The developer does not even earn the money to spend it on some things because you do this ****.

    ---
    Everything said, bye.
    k0de and Arda Ozkal like this.
    06-23-2014 04:58 PM
  24. k0de's Avatar
    Thanks
    06-23-2014 05:01 PM
  25. a5cent's Avatar
    Funny, that not a single software developer wrote here yet.
    In that assumption you are mistaken.

    I also think you are missing the point, as this discussion is rather focused on the piracy of Windows, where MS has very different issues to consider than a small software shop with a direct sales model.
    06-23-2014 05:03 PM
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