07-11-2014 12:34 AM
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  1. Mr Lebowski's Avatar
    Never. Your post tells me you have never accomplished anything in life. From relationship to a career.

    My friend. If WP is to succeed they must be persistence.

    Persistence is the key to success. Any successful individual will tell you that.
    You know you've lost the argument and the audience when you result to personal attacks to make a point, comment on content not on the contributor. I doubt you think of him as your friend either, friends don't attack each other for no reason.
    k0de, wapoz and Maitrikkataria like this.
    06-30-2014 06:30 PM
  2. k0de's Avatar
    You know you've lost the argument and the audience when you result to personal attacks to make a point, comment on content not on the contributor.
    Last argument.

    Disney is doing fine. EA Sports is doing fine. Gameloft is doing fine.

    ROI are fine. :-)

    So what is your point?
    06-30-2014 06:33 PM
  3. btgusto's Avatar
    So why by a windows phone if you going to run android app on it.
    wapoz likes this.
    06-30-2014 06:36 PM
  4. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    ROI is the bottom line.

    IOS dev can continue developing for iOS. And Droids dev like wise.

    But Where is the lost when deploying a WP app?

    Please elaborate how there is a risk of a lost on ROI by developing for WP?
    Developers only have so much time that they can work. For every hour they spend working an a WP version of their application that is one hour less to work on iOS or Android. If there are 2 different developers "A" and "B" with successful but competitive products on iOS and Android, and developer "A" redirects resource to create a WP version of their app but develop "B" stays focused on iOS and Android, then over time developer "B" will have a greater likelihood of increasing their marketshare vs. developer "A".

    Depending upon who you believe, WP makes up for only 3% of all smartphones. 3%. For purposes of this discussion, that means that 97% are Android or iOS.

    For 100,000,000 devices, that means that a developer who develops apps for iOS and Android can reach 97,000,000 devices. But developing for WP will result in only reaching 3,000,000. It is not wise to expend the effort to port an app from iOS and/or Android to WP.



    A WP team of dev perhaps are more productive other than Droid or iOS dev's.
    That's generally not true. Microsoft has been tinkering with APIs on their mobile platforms since the introduction of WP8. That is not necessarily a problem unless your application uses the APIs that are changing. That requires additional regression testing and tweaking. It becomes a serious headache for what is already going to be minimal return.
    k0de likes this.
    06-30-2014 06:38 PM
  5. k0de's Avatar
    Developers only have so much time that they can work. For every hour they spend working an a WP version of their application that is one hour less to work on iOS or Android. If there are 2 different developers "A" and "B" with successful but competitive products on iOS and Android, and developer "A" redirects resource to create a WP version of their app but develop "B" stays focused on iOS and Android, then over time developer "B" will have a greater likelihood of increasing their marketshare vs. developer "A".

    Depending upon who you believe, WP makes up for only 3% of all smartphones. 3%. For purposes of this discussion, that means that 97% are Android or iOS.

    For 100,000,000 devices, that means that a developer who develops apps for iOS and Android can reach 97,000,000 devices. But developing for WP will result in only reaching 3,000,000. It is not wise to expend the effort to port an app from iOS and/or Android to WP.




    That's generally not true. Microsoft has been tinkering with APIs on their mobile platforms since the introduction of WP8. That is not necessarily a problem unless your application uses the APIs that are changing. That requires additional regression testing and tweaking. It becomes a serious headache for what is already going to be minimal return.
    True indeed.

    But developer A can spend his lifetime in developing for Android and iOS.

    And developers B can work on WP only.

    Why mix and match?

    As a boss you must separate the three.

    Developers A = iOS
    Developers B = Android
    Developers C = Windows Phone.

    You don't have to be a genius. It is self explanatory. The least productive team will be scrapped.

    Try it.

    Let us at Windows Phone know your outcome. :-)
    Last edited by k0de; 06-30-2014 at 07:04 PM.
    06-30-2014 06:40 PM
  6. Pierre Blackwell's Avatar
    Why would a dev focus on WP??? The key is universal apps. True there are more apps on iOS and Android but of those apps which ones are used on OSX or on a chrome book? This is where MSFT can balance the scales. If a dev knows they can generate one app for all devices that might be the incentive. I don't know what MLB app you used on iOS but there are a few that I love that to me are as comparable. I will agree that banking apps are one of the biggest areas of discernment. Myself using NFCU I can attest to it, but using the actual website isn't a bad thing either. I never really gave bing a second thought before WP, but its all I use now, even on my desktop and I love the bing apps which rival any apps of their kind.
    06-30-2014 08:29 PM
  7. EC Translating Services's Avatar
    I think I should explain myself here, it might be a little offtopic, but I'll do it anyway.

    In 2002 I bought my first Microsoft phone, the Orange SPV. Since then I have only used Microsoft devices, with one exception, the original Motorola RAZR for a short period of time. I owned a ton of phones, from the SPV 9000 to the HP iPAQ Voice Messenger to the HTC HD just to mention a few examples. Then Microsoft decided to discontinue Windows Mobile, and even though I was shocked about the featureless successor Windows Phone 7, I bought a Samsung Omnia 7. I moved from a small computer to a smartphone with by far the most limited feature set available on every OS.

    Back then I hoped things would improve fast. I bought a Lumia 800 and a Omnia W during this time. All we got was resizeable tiles and copy and paste before they discontinued it.

    Windows Phone 8 was from an user-perspective an exact copy of Windows Phone 7.8, only with features missing like FM radio (reintroduced later in a GDR update with great fanfare) and without Zune. Still, I bought the HTC 8X (which I think is a great phone actually) and later the Lumia 620 which I handed to my mother after a while.

    After all these years using Windows Phone right now the first real update is released with Windows Phone 8.1. An update that still has less features than Windows Mobile had. Of course, Windows Mobile needed a refresh, it needed to be made touch friendly, but Microsoft really just dumbed it down, and it's still suffering from that.

    You might now understand why I don't think Windows Phone is new and refreshing, I think it's old and stuck. You might now understand why I'm tired of waiting for the big thing to happen. I just did it for too long.
    I totally agree with you. As a former faithful user of Windows Mobile i am ad best disappointed at how, tiles aside, Microsoft has involved with this OS. I don't think many understand how much flexibility the OS has lost from the old 6.5 mobile version to the 7/8/8.1 migration. Things like groups of apps, registry editing, file management, UI customization were standard features in Win mobile. Like you i had a bunch of them. All of the Tytn family for a start, then a bunch of others (including an ETEN 500). If i understand the need for Microsoft to innovate and start from 0 with a new platform, i don't understand why not to include all the good things Win Mobile had since day 1. When Android came out Win Mobile was still a decent OS for me. I didn't look for an Android till Microsoft dropped support for the mobile platform. Microsoft is selling an OS that's sub par with a modern UI but the OS itself is not even comparable to the beauty of the old Windows Mobile 6.5. It even had a defrag. Talking about "platform standardization"....you could go from your desktop Windows to the mobile version and the functionalities were the same. What they did with WP is beyond me....not to talk about how slow they are in innovating. Android was more or less good after two years (in the sense it had most issues fixed and started to look decent after that time, before it was sad crap). WP has is going for 5 years soon and still misses basic functions. Each time they add a function Win Mobile had already and Android has had for years, they sell it like the next best think after sliced bread. They forget how ahead they were and how backwards they are now. Depressing.
    07-01-2014 12:39 AM
  8. XXNUZ's Avatar
    True indeed.

    But developer A can spend his lifetime in developing for Android and iOS.

    And developers B can work on WP only.

    Why mix and match?

    As a boss you must separate the three.

    Developers A = iOS
    Developers B = Android
    Developers C = Windows Phone.

    You don't have to be a genius. It is self explanatory. The least productive team will be scrapped.

    Try it.

    Let us at Windows Phone know your outcome. :-)



    I personally develop for both WP and Android (I hate Apple). The two platforms are actually very similar to develop for and should be easy for developers to switch between. However, my Android apps do end up looking like WP apps.





    Sent from my purple velociraptor running Windows Phone 7.8
    k0de and prasath1234 like this.
    07-01-2014 07:03 AM
  9. k0de's Avatar
    I personally develop for both WP and Android (I hate Apple). The two platforms are actually very similar to develop for and should be easy for developers to switch between. However, my Android apps do end up looking like WP apps.





    Sent from my purple velociraptor running Windows Phone 7.8
    Thanks for developing for Windows Phone.

    How do you like it? Kind regards in your development.

    I am working on my first Windows Phone app.

    Give us a link.
    07-01-2014 08:46 PM
  10. pgg101's Avatar
    Having just come from BlackBerry, I can tell you the app situation is much better and improving on Windows Phone. BB10 has to rely on its Android Runtime to make up for its terrible native app catalog. In fact, they are partnering with Amazon to make the Amazon Appstore an official part of the next major OS release. BB has conceded defeat in trying to develop a competitive native app ecosystem and thrown its existing native app developers under the bus.

    Microsoft is in a much better position to attract developers and grow its WP app ecosystem. It's been a slow and difficult journey, but I think their persistence is paying off.

    Though I am committed to trying out this Lumia 822 for at least 30 days, I can see myself staying with WP well beyond that.
    Posted from my Nokia Lumia 822 using Tapatalk
    As much as I'd like to see another player, I do think WP will fail. Just go into any store, they push iOS or Android. WP is market share is non existent in Canada. The Amazon deal was probably the best alternative they had so they can focus on enterprise. While I like native apps, in the grand scheme of things, as long as my Google Maps continues to work, then the Android runtime was well worth it in the end.

    Posted via the WPC App for Android on BlackBerry Z30
    k0de likes this.
    07-01-2014 11:50 PM
  11. smoledman's Avatar
    I reiterate, unless MS is willing to pour a billion into WP app development(bribe the iOS devs), the app gap will stay forever.
    07-02-2014 12:51 AM
  12. snowwake8's Avatar
    I reiterate, unless MS is willing to pour a billion into WP app development(bribe the iOS devs), the app gap will stay forever.
    Let's not exaggerate here. Facebook, and some 3rd party apps are all its going to take. 1 billion is a ridiculous number.
    07-02-2014 12:54 AM
  13. smoledman's Avatar
    Let's not exaggerate here. Facebook, and some 3rd party apps are all its going to take. 1 billion is a ridiculous number.
    No it's the price MS has to pay for being ridiculously late to the modern smartphone game. It's also karma for what Ballmer said about the iPhone in 2007.
    tgp likes this.
    07-02-2014 01:02 AM
  14. trooper11's Avatar
    I'm surprised so many around here are so down on the prospects of WP considering the strides that the platform has made to this point. A really tough crowd lol.

    What I see here is a platform that continues to take its lumps from almost every angle and yet continues to grow. Its still a small % world wide, but the numbers are trending up, not down. MS basically started from scratch when Apple and Google were starting to dominate and have been able to scrape and claw their way to a decent spot considering. MS just needs to stay aggressive with updates and improvements. We have seen many recent changes that point to them trying to move quicker and be more flexible in rolling out things like app updates. The 'app gap' will remain for quite a while, but I think we are near a point where the gap will mean less and less. There is a positive trend of app developers either bringing an app over, or new developers bringing out quality alternatives. That just needs to be fostered by MS as much as possible.

    I see people commenting on MS' lack of commitment to sticking to a platform, but I really have to wonder what they have been looking at. MS has clearly been making a play for platform convergence across WP and Windows. The first step in that process was the WP7 to 8 move. It definitely was not pleasant and it certainly fueled the argument that MS was just abandoning users again, but I think it setup MS for a better long term position. The next step was universal apps. I have seen no evidence that MS will need to make such a move again. WP9 will bring it and Windows even closer together (not to mention see WP and RT merge) and should prove to developers that MS is in it for the long haul, not lacking commitment.

    WP definitely burned people that favored the WM platform, and clearly Android became the spiritual successor, but I really have trouble believing that WM represented a platform that could carry MS forward into this current era of smartphones. WM was considered the 'old school' smartphone OS and I don't see it faring much better against Apple or Google. MS chose to reinvent the platform around a less robust set of features, but something that is more inviting to the average smartphone user. We have seen robust features start to make their way back in over the years though and I think the path of joining with Windows will see much more of that returning. Its been a rough road, no doubt, but at least MS seems willing to take the lumps and spend the money to suffer until they reach their goals. This will still be a long road, but it doesn't seem so dire to me at this point.
    07-02-2014 02:16 AM
  15. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    I'm surprised so many around here are so down on the prospects of WP considering the strides that the platform has made to this point. A really tough crowd lol.

    What I see here is a platform that continues to take its lumps from almost every angle and yet continues to grow. Its still a small % world wide, but the numbers are trending up, not down. MS basically started from scratch when Apple and Google were starting to dominate and have been able to scrape and claw their way to a decent spot considering. MS just needs to stay aggressive with updates and improvements. We have seen many recent changes that point to them trying to move quicker and be more flexible in rolling out things like app updates. The 'app gap' will remain for quite a while, but I think we are near a point where the gap will mean less and less. There is a positive trend of app developers either bringing an app over, or new developers bringing out quality alternatives. That just needs to be fostered by MS as much as possible.

    I see people commenting on MS' lack of commitment to sticking to a platform, but I really have to wonder what they have been looking at. MS has clearly been making a play for platform convergence across WP and Windows. The first step in that process was the WP7 to 8 move. It definitely was not pleasant and it certainly fueled the argument that MS was just abandoning users again, but I think it setup MS for a better long term position. The next step was universal apps. I have seen no evidence that MS will need to make such a move again. WP9 will bring it and Windows even closer together (not to mention see WP and RT merge) and should prove to developers that MS is in it for the long haul, not lacking commitment.

    WP definitely burned people that favored the WM platform, and clearly Android became the spiritual successor, but I really have trouble believing that WM represented a platform that could carry MS forward into this current era of smartphones. WM was considered the 'old school' smartphone OS and I don't see it faring much better against Apple or Google. MS chose to reinvent the platform around a less robust set of features, but something that is more inviting to the average smartphone user. We have seen robust features start to make their way back in over the years though and I think the path of joining with Windows will see much more of that returning. Its been a rough road, no doubt, but at least MS seems willing to take the lumps and spend the money to suffer until they reach their goals. This will still be a long road, but it doesn't seem so dire to me at this point.
    Microsoft has not been "making a play" at platform convergence... they've simply been "playing"... and those who wanted them to succeed have been "played". Their greatest effort in platform convergence has been to put "Windows" in the name of every operating system.

    Microsoft apparently restarts their mobile platforms every 4 years (if history is any indication). To your credit you acknowledge that this has happened. You have chosen to give them a pass. Consumers-at-large haven't. Why should they?

    You said that you don't think that MS will need to make such a move to restart again... that is the same sentiment expressed by others over the years every time MS re-booted their mobile OS.

    Microsoft isn't new to the scene. They've been at this thing (mobile operating systems) for over 14 years. It is painfully obvious (to me anyways) that their mobile goals are different than what many expect.
    07-02-2014 08:36 AM
  16. rodan01's Avatar
    Microsoft has not been "making a play" at platform convergence... they've simply been "playing"... and those who wanted them to succeed have been "played". Their greatest effort in platform convergence has been to put "Windows" in the name of every operating system.

    Microsoft apparently restarts their mobile platforms every 4 years (if history is any indication). To your credit you acknowledge that this has happened. You have chosen to give them a pass. Consumers-at-large haven't. Why should they?

    You said that you don't think that MS will need to make such a move to restart again... that is the same sentiment expressed by others over the years every time MS re-booted their mobile OS.

    Microsoft isn't new to the scene. They've been at this thing (mobile operating systems) for over 14 years. It is painfully obvious (to me anyways) that their mobile goals are different than what many expect.

    Microsoft can't support an inferior platform like Windows Mobile just because a mediocre developer can't learn new things.
    Everybody feels pity for you, but come on man, get over it.

    Winrt is the convergence but you don't know about it because you're still thinking about the past.
    07-02-2014 09:21 AM
  17. anon(6038817)'s Avatar
    As much as I'd like to see another player, I do think WP will fail. Just go into any store, they push iOS or Android. WP is market share is non existent in Canada. The Amazon deal was probably the best alternative they had so they can focus on enterprise. While I like native apps, in the grand scheme of things, as long as my Google Maps continues to work, then the Android runtime was well worth it in the end.

    Posted via the WPC App for Android on BlackBerry Z30
    I don't think WP market share in Canada is indicative of the state of the platform as a whole.

    WP market share has increased in many other countries over the past year.

    Smartphone OS market share - Kantar Worldpanel ComTech
    07-02-2014 10:02 AM
  18. trooper11's Avatar
    Microsoft has not been "making a play" at platform convergence... they've simply been "playing"... and those who wanted them to succeed have been "played". Their greatest effort in platform convergence has been to put "Windows" in the name of every operating system.
    I'm simply going by MS' own words and their actions in the latest attempt at a new platform. I would love to see evidence that this is all a ruse and MS is in fact not working towards a unified OS. If you have such evidence, then please share it.

    It sounds like to me your response is based on the past, which certainly does matter, but it cannot negate the actions MS has taken in the present alone.

    Microsoft apparently restarts their mobile platforms every 4 years (if history is any indication). To your credit you acknowledge that this has happened. You have chosen to give them a pass. Consumers-at-large haven't. Why should they?
    As far as I'm aware, MS only restarted their mobile platform once, going from WM to WP. Are you referring to changes to WM before that? If so, then fair enough. I guess you can count WP7 to WP8 as a change, but that was certainly not a restart. It was not a smooth transition though and it was not great for the end user, no arguments there.

    I'm not denying MS' actions in the past, I'm just wondering what the evidence is beyond 'history' that the same thing is about to happen now. I'm not giving MS a pass, I'm just looking at their words and actions today versus in the past. I'm not going to blindly support them, but if they follow through on the current path, then it will be a good thing. Also, I kind of doubt this topic really matters to most consumers-at-large. Most consumers are not following the history of these companies and using that as a basis for a smartphone purchase. It matters to developers though and if developers jump ship, then that hurts the experience for end users, resulting in those users going to other platforms.

    You said that you don't think that MS will need to make such a move to restart again... that is the same sentiment expressed by others over the years every time MS re-booted their mobile OS.

    Microsoft isn't new to the scene. They've been at this thing (mobile operating systems) for over 14 years. It is painfully obvious (to me anyways) that their mobile goals are different than what many expect.
    Again, beyond the historic moments you refer to, is there any evidence today that they are not trying to unify all of their devices under a single OS? Your absolutely right that MS is not new to the mobile scene, but that still does not mean things will always repeat themselves. I mean something as simple as employee turn over at MS can have a drastic effect on how they operate. It has an effect at any company that has gone through as much as MS has recently.

    If you feel that MS will just abandon WP and go in a different direction, then what do you think their goal is long term?
    07-02-2014 10:09 AM
  19. Pierre Blackwell's Avatar
    Very well said. People want to doubt MSFT's moves and that's okay because after all everyone is entitled to their opinions, but facts are facts and that facts show MSFT in the top three spots in every category when it comes to the technology and devices they put out. Top OS being utilized on desktops and laptops, not to mention claiming the second and third place spots as well. Top selling gaming console with the Xbox 360. Even the much criticized WP platform is treading water as the third mobile OS in the world, though it has been dubbed the fastest growing. I've increased my share in MSFT because the one thing I know they do is what is in the best interest of the company. The revelation that I've seen occur over the past two years is a shift to also try to do what's in the best interest of the consumers that utilize that companies products and those that design for it. If MSFT can capture that aspect then they will be back on top. I for one am excited as to what MSFT will produce for WP. Everything is trending up. I think Apple has plateaued as far as the mobile market is concerned and Google realizes they need to expand to be more then just a mobile company with a robust search engine. As saturated as the mobile market is WP continues to grow and most metrics indicates that it's at the expense of iphone users. We'll see how much truth there is to that, but the future certainly looks bright for WP.
    07-02-2014 10:17 AM
  20. Jas00555's Avatar
    I mean, honestly, if Microsoft lets Windows 9 be free to Windows 7 and 8 users, then that'll bring the install base of Windows 9 to maybe 50%. By my math, that's 750 million people. With that many people, Windows will never have an app problem ever again and the convergence with Windows Phone with 90% shared APIs and universal apps will mean that the app gap will mainly be closed.

    My 2 cents have been shared.
    07-02-2014 10:25 AM
  21. Chregu's Avatar
    How many people are using the Windows 8 marketplace and its app regularly? More than people using Windows Phone apps?

    How many apps are available in either store?

    Unification may make it easier for developers to bring apps from Windows to Windows Phone and the other way around, but it doesn't inherently increase the user base for either of them. And according to rumors one of the next releases of Windows will revert from forcing Metro on everybody as it just didn't work out.

    This is a serious question, what are the benefits of unification?
    07-02-2014 10:28 AM
  22. Chregu's Avatar
    I mean, honestly, if Microsoft lets Windows 9 be free to Windows 7 and 8 users, then that'll bring the install base of Windows 9 to maybe 50%. By my math, that's 750 million people. With that many people, Windows will never have an app problem ever again and the convergence with Windows Phone with 90% shared APIs and universal apps will mean that the app gap will mainly be closed.
    That's only true if these 750 million people use Metro apps though. Also, only because something is free it doesn't mean that people will upgrade. And If they release the update for free for Windows 7 and Windows 8, a lot of people will feel ripped off that payed good money for the upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 8.
    07-02-2014 10:29 AM
  23. Jas00555's Avatar
    I can't find the place, but I remember somewhere that the store received 14 million app downloads per day, so I would say a decent amount use them.

    After Windows usually costing a few hundred dollars, I think a lot of people would jump on a free version of Windows, but that's just my guess.
    07-02-2014 10:43 AM
  24. Pierre Blackwell's Avatar
    Most users utilizing Win8/8.1 are using metro apps because that's the biggest reason to upgrade, so to answer your question, a lot are utilizing the Windows app store for Win8/8.1. Why would you use Win8/8.1 and not utilize any metro apps? Those that feel ripped off about paying a lot should be frustrated with themselves for waiting so long to upgrade. I only paid around $20 for my upgrade, but the key is doing it as soon as it comes out to take advantage of the promotion.
    07-02-2014 10:44 AM
  25. Chregu's Avatar
    Most users utilizing Win8/8.1 are using metro apps because that's the biggest reason to upgrade, so to answer your question, a lot are utilizing the Windows app store for Win8/8.1. Why would you use Win8/8.1 and not utilize any metro apps?
    Well, if that is the biggest reason it's clear now why nobody buys it. Actually I don't use Metro apps because I have big screens and they are made for small touch screens. So does the Windows 8 marketplace have a better quality than the Windows Phone marketplace by now? I only ever looked at it during the first few months I had Windows 8, and back then it was terrible, so I really don't know.

    Those that feel ripped off about paying a lot should be frustrated with themselves for waiting so long to upgrade. I only paid around $20 for my upgrade, but the key is doing it as soon as it comes out to take advantage of the promotion.
    I really hope Microsoft uses this argumentation to promote the free upgrade, the reactions would be hilarious!
    07-02-2014 10:48 AM
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