I say NO to Android apps on WP

[a5cent]

I believe the WP OS will be updated to run everything natively as opposed to "side loading" or "emulating".

For the most part, Android apps are built using java, and in that context, there really is no such thing as a native app. All Android java apps run inside the Dalvik runtime environment, which transforms the generic java byte code into something that can run natively. It's a two step process, and only in that later step are calls to device specific Lunix APIs inserted. Such an app on WP would just require its own equivalent of the Dalvik engine. Such apps on WP would be no more (or less) emulated than they already are on Android devices.

So why would anyone buy a Windows Phone then? Killer hardware. The best cameras, the sexiest devices thanks to former Nokia designers and engineers who now work for MS, and the broadest platform/ecosystem available.. Windows Phone will have the best of everything!

IMHO the killer hardware argument is a fantasy. The newest hardware is always available on Android devices about six months before it comes to WP. That isn't going to change. With the exception of Nokia's camera tech, WP has never been about the hardware. Furthermore, Nokia is expected to license their camera tech to anybody that wants it, not to mention that Nokia's former camera guru was recently hired by Apple. Hardware isn't what will sell WP devices. Except for the camera, it never has been.

 

[TerryB9999]

In general... To be honest the app gap doesn't really bother me.. So yea Android has more than us, but how many are functional? if they have one that is functional then i would love for one of our devs to work on a similar app, but most of them are just gimmicks that fill up their store.. Same goes for Iphone (I think)

I have to agree with a previous poster that you don not seem too familiar with the App Store or Play Store. My wife had an iPhone until recently. She is now using my old S3, and I have a Note 3, along with my 521, soon to be a 925.. So I think I am qualified to offer a comparison.
The WP app store is FILLED with garbage. Do a search on a common app and just look at all the crap that comes up. Fake apps that just use the browser. Garbage "how to" apps, etc..
Apple, as much as I hate their arrogant ways, has the app system down to a science. I may not agree with Apple's business practices, but they run a solid show that I have to respect them for.
The play store is almost as good, but not as solid as Apple.

WP app store has a long way to go.

 

[a5cent]

People is too binary here. Maybe It's the ****** gen that has this side effect.

Something is wrong with that sentence. I don't understand what you are trying to say.

There are still incentives for native development. Native apps give a better experience, they produce an advantage over competitors, a native experience increase the usage, that means more money for the developers. Many companies already have a WP app and they are moving to universal apps, so they won't ditch their investment if the platform is growing.

Adding support for Android apps would increase the sales of Windows Phone and the user base, that's a big incentive for native development.

Probably Android would dominate in the number of apps, but native apps would dominate in usage time which is the important metric.

Microsoft could concentrate their resources improving the native experience of the apps where the users spend 80% of the time when using the phone.
And maybe build a Windows Phone UI layer on top of the Android runtime to give a Metro look to the Andrid apps.

I seriously doubt all of that.

It's certainly not true for any of the software companies I've worked with. As long as you can reach the WP user base, reducing development costs trumps everything else. If you can offer the SAME experience (not a worse experience) on Android and WP at no extra cost, then you don't invest any money into a separate WP app. For the companies I know, that would be an incentive to drop WP app development.

For all the big social apps like Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp, etc, how good your app is on WP is almost irrelevant. All that matters is how good your app is on Android, and for some countries also on iOS. If you are the market leader on those platforms, then users on WP have no choice but to follow, no matter how poor your WP app may be.

Like you say, Windows tablets might be a reason to develop a universal app for both WP and Windows, but with the market share Windows tablets currently have, that market is even easier to ignore than WP's is.

 

[Ed Boland]

IMHO the killer hardware argument is a fantasy. The newest hardware is always available on Android devices about six months before it comes to WP. That isn't going to change. With the exception of Nokia's camera tech, WP has never been about the hardware. Furthermore, Nokia is expected to license their camera tech to anybody that wants it, not to mention that Nokia's former camera guru was recently hired by Apple. Hardware isn't what will sell WP devices. Except for the camera, it never has been.

I was referring to Nokia's outstanding build quality, design, and overall form when I said "killer hardware". As opposed to the cheap, flimsy, plastic-ey feel of most android phones. I know this is what sold me on the 920 when it came out.. it was built like a tank.

Yes, I know Android phones always get the "Octa-core processors" and such first. Where Windows Phone doesn't need all that to run perfectly.

Maybe I should have said "quality hardware"...

 

[prasath1234]

Now that Android is improving and it runs quite well in low end hardware, the advantages of WP are disappearing and the app gap is still huge.




Windows Phone could die without apps. Android apps should be a priority for Microsoft.









Android apps complement native development.



Popular apps will always be native because they appeal to a number of users that justify native development to maximize the profits.




For mid-size apps, that in WP have a subset of the features and many bugs, Android apps are a better alternative.




Most of the small apps won't come to WP because developers can't finance the cost of development for such a small user base, so Android apps would be the only alternative.









The OS is important only for geeks. People buy an experience and without apps Windows Phone is a lower quality product. Now that Android is good in low end hardware the reasons to buy a Windows Phone are harder to find.

No way android are worthless in low end it lags nd force closes after some months of usage.

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[rodan01]

Something is wrong with that sentence. I don't understand what you are trying to say.



I seriously doubt all of that.

It's certainly not true for any of the software companies I've worked with. As long as you can reach the WP user base, reducing development costs trumps everything else. If you can offer the SAME experience (not a worse experience) on Android and WP at no extra cost, then you don't invest any money into a separate WP app. For the companies I know, that would be an incentive to drop WP app development.

For all the big social apps like Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp, etc, how good your app is on WP is almost irrelevant. All that matters is how good your app is on Android, and for some countries also on iOS. If you are the market leader on those platforms, then users on WP have no choice but to follow, no matter how poor your WP app may be.

Like you say, Windows tablets might be a reason to develop a universal app for both WP and Windows, but with the market share Windows tablets currently have, that market is even easier to ignore than WP's is.

For small projects the Windows Phone app is usually low quality, lacks features and is abandoned after a few months. Users would be better served by Android apps. So, it's good for the platform if Android apps replace low quality apps in that segment.

Although, some companies could decide to concentrate resources in WP trying to win over this smaller user base instead of competing in the crowded stores with many top quality apps. So, there are incentives for native high quality development even for smaller projects.



For big apps it's not only a race for domination without profits. They need to make money and they need user engagement to make money. If there are 50 millions of WP users and 6 million of them are from US. It's an interesting user base to address. Add some growth to the platform and more money from MS that could concentrate their resources on top apps (if Android apps cover most of the ground), and you could get a good native apps from big developers.



I think It's a mistake to analyze the problem from the perspective that WP will have 2% of market share, and falling, forever. The platform will die with the current trajectory.

I think supporting Android apps is one of the last moves that could save this platform and initiate the growth process. In that scenario there are enough economic incentives for an app store in which native and Android apps coexist. Probably a big number of Android apps and fewer native apps including top apps subsidized by Microsoft. The more the platform grows the bigger the incentive for native development.

 

[prasath1234]

For small projects the Windows Phone app is usually low quality, lacks features and is abandoned after a few months. Users would be better served by Android apps. So, it's good for the platform if Android apps replace low quality apps in that segment.

Although, some companies could decide to concentrate resources in WP trying to win over this smaller user base instead of competing in the crowded stores with many top quality apps. So, there are incentives for native high quality development even for smaller projects.



For big apps it's not only a race for domination without profits. They need to make money and they need user engagement to make money. If there are 50 millions of WP users and 6 million of them are from US. It's an interesting user base to address. Add some growth to the platform and more money from MS that could concentrate their resources on top apps (if Android apps cover most of the ground), and you could get a good native apps from big developers.



I think It's a mistake to analyze the problem from the perspective that WP will have 2% of market share, and falling, forever. The platform will die with the current trajectory.

I think supporting Android apps is one of the last moves that could save this platform and initiate the growth process. In that scenario there are enough economic incentives for an app store in which native and Android apps coexist. Probably a big number of Android apps and fewer native apps including top apps subsidized by Microsoft. The more the platform grows the bigger the incentive for native development.

Then why bb 10 os failed.

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[cbreze]

Since a lot of WP users like me came from android and love the platform but dislike having to leave certain very useful apps behind, I think this is a good idea. Android has some great apps and so WP will potentially have even more great apps. Seems a win/win to me. Its not like its going to androidize our WP's, just going to give us more choices and choices are always good.

 

[a5cent]

<snippe>
I think It's a mistake to analyze the problem from the perspective that WP will have 2% of market share, and falling, forever. The platform will die with the current trajectory.

I think supporting Android apps is one of the last moves that could save this platform and initiate the growth process. In that scenario there are enough economic incentives for an app store in which native and Android apps coexist. Probably a big number of Android apps and fewer native apps including top apps subsidized by Microsoft. The more the platform grows the bigger the incentive for native development. . .

I'm not analysing this from the perspective you think I am.

Our difference of opinion likely boils down to how much of a competitive advantage we think a native WP app would represent over an Android app running on WP.

My view is that if the app was good enough to be popular on Android, and a real demand exists for that app on WP, then I see no reason why most people won't be happy with the Android version. Making most people happy, on a platform that is unlikely to reach 15% market share in the U.S. anytime soon, is more than good enough for most companies. I could actually imagine many people preferring the Android version, as familiarity trumps usability every time (again, for most people).

If app X is the popular app on Android, I just don't see a lot of people choosing an alternative app on WP just because app X doesn't offer a native experience on WP. That is where I think you are going wrong. We here at WPC certainly would, but we are a minority.

It also seems to me that you are ignoring how most companies think. Most will ask themselves this:

Is it better to split my development budget of $200'000 between Android and WP, thereby improving both apps a little, or is it better to invest the entire budget into the Android app, thereby improving that app a lot, and then making that available on both platforms?

Given that choice, I'm quite certain almost all companies would prefer the later, particularly because you just can't afford to lose market leadership on Android. The Android battlefield is where you have to win your battles, and if you actually do have competition, it's far more important to invest the resources you have into improving your Android offerings. Diverting your resources from the most important battlefields is the best way to lose a war.

 

[drachen23]

Just to clear up what is meant by Android apps, there would be no Google Play store on the phone. Google would never allow that! What MS could do is what Blackberry did. They allowed developers to submit Android apps to the BB store as if they were BB apps. Android apps are written to run in a virtual machine, not on specific hardware, so MS could either put a Dalvic-compatible VM on their phones or recompile the app after submission so that it works on WP. I'd be surprised if MS hasn't already spent some time and money researching just this.

Ultimately, it's a really bad idea and smacks of desperation. That's why Blackberry did it. On one hand, it would open up easy development for WP, on the other, it would just make WP a weird species of Android. That would pretty much end most WP-native development and destroy WP's design consistency, which is one of its major selling points. WP would become the same inconsistent design mess as Android. It would also put them in the same boat as HTC and Sony competing against Samsung only on hardware specs. Nokia/MS have some interesting ideas, but can't really compete in the high or mid-range as far as I've seen. Their best-selling device is the 520, not the 1520 or 1020. Even if they came up with the best hardware ever, they'd still be at a disadvantage. Their custom VM would always be behind the official Android version (they'd be making a copy feature-by-feature). Finally if they did add new features to their phone, like 3D touch, why would devs support it? It's different than stock Android and wouldn't work on non-MS handsets. If it does come down to that, it might be more profitable just to dump the hardware business and stick to selling Office, Skype and other software and services to Android and iOS users.

Ultimately, I think their best bet is stay unique and to make it easier for devs to do real cross-platform development. They just recently bought a company that makes tools for Visual Studio that make it easier to make games using the cross-platform Unity game engine for example.

 

[rodan01]

I'm not analysing this from the perspective you think I am.

Our difference of opinion likely boils down to how much of a competitive advantage we think a native WP app would represent over an Android app running on WP.

My view is that if the app was good enough to be popular on Android, and a real demand exists for that app on WP, then I see no reason why most people won't be happy with the Android version. Making most people happy, on a platform that is unlikely to reach 15% market share in the U.S. anytime soon, is more than good enough for most companies. I could actually imagine many people preferring the Android version, as familiarity trumps usability every time (again, for most people).

If app X is the popular app on Android, I just don't see a lot of people choosing an alternative app on WP just because app X doesn't offer a native experience on WP. That is where I think you are going wrong. We here at WPC certainly would, but we are a minority.

It also seems to me that you are ignoring how most companies think. Most will ask themselves this:

Is it better to split my development budget of $200'000 between Android and WP, thereby improving both apps a little, or is it better to invest the entire budget into the Android app, thereby improving that app a lot, and then making that available on both platforms?

Given that choice, I'm quite certain almost all companies would prefer the later, particularly because you just can't afford to lose market leadership on Android. The Android battlefield is where you have to win your battles, and if you actually do have competition, it's far more important to invest the resources you have into improving your Android offerings. Diverting your resources from the most important battlefields is the best way to lose a war.

That's what I mean by binary. Android apps on WP is not a on/off switch. I guess MS can make a better job than BlackBerry, although I don't expect the Android apps running perfectly.
Many apps depend on Native Android APIs or Google services. There will be bugs and performance issues in the implementation of the runtime. Other problems in the integration with the operating system: Live tiles, notification center, sharing interfaces, copy paste, file selection., background task, etc.
So if they implement this thing we would have apps working perfectly, to app with perf problems, or bugs, or without integration with the OS, or with features that don't work, to apps that aren't compatible at all.

There is a great variety of apps too, not all apps are social networks that have to win in Android to be relevant. For example, the best buy app it doesn't matter if they win in Android they need the best experience to convert 'visits' in sales. Or a newspaper app needs engagement to make money, a me too app doesn't maximize the profit in many cases.

The design and esthetics is important in the consumer market. This factor make the difference in many cases. If the app break the predominant user experience it doesn't feel good, natural. Or it could have usability problems if the behavior is different compared to the apps where the user spend most of the time. A developer has just 30 seconds or a minute to capture the user before she just press the home button and forget the app forever.

The size of the user base also make a big difference because the revenue depends on the number of users and the quality of the users.

So, it's not a on/off situation. The decision to go native/android/html5 would depends on multiple variables that are changing all the time in a continuous range. This create an app store in which the three kind of app coexist.

 

[paulm187]

If Android apps come to Windows Phone, that will be the final admission of failure and its time to bail out, learn from what happened to Blackberry. In fact I'm not buying a new Windows Phone and will continue to use my Nokia 920 until I know exactly where this platform is heading. My confidence in MS is at an all time low.

 

[jailman]

If i want android apps then ill stick to my android phone why would i use a a nokia

 

[a5cent]

That's what I mean by binary. Android apps on WP is not a on/off switch. I guess MS can make a better job than BlackBerry, although I don't expect the Android apps running perfectly. Many apps depend on Native Android APIs or Google services. There will be bugs and performance issues in the implementation of the runtime. Other problems in the integration with the operating system: Live tiles, notification center, sharing interfaces, copy paste, file selection., background task, etc.
So if they implement this.

Okay, I see where you are coming from now.

I completely agree with you that if MS screws up, by having Android apps on WP constantly trip over themselves or perform poorly, then there remains a reason to invest in native apps on WP. I just don't see any reason why MS should screw up in that fashion. If they do their job right, there will be absolutely no difference at all. Maybe not in version 1.0, but at the latest by version 2.0 of WP's Android runtime.

Why? Firstly, because Java apps do not rely on any native Android APIs. None. Zero. Zilch. I'm not aware of any apps that rely directly on Google services either. I know of some that rely on Google's Maps API, or Java mail API, but I see no reason why MS can't replicate those.

Like I said in an earlier post, there is no such thing as a native Java app on Android. All Java apps on Android run in a VM! As such, there is really no difference between running a Java app in a VM on Android and running a Java app in a VM on WP. Just as there is no difference between running a Java application on Linux or running it on Windows. Same thing. The runtime environments used by Android (Dalvik or more recently ART), are also both open source, so MS could even use the exact same VMs if they wanted to.

Really, with the exception of bugs, there really is no reason whatsoever that Android apps on WP couldn't run just as well and just as fast as on Android. None.

The design and esthetics is important in the consumer market. This factor make the difference in many cases. If the app break the predominant user experience it doesn't feel good, natural. Or it could have usability problems if the behavior is different compared to the apps where the user spend most of the time. A developer has just 30 seconds to capture the user before she just press the home button.

Here we'll have to agree to disagree. Personally I'm totally with you. I see it that way too. I just don't think the majority of consumers do. IMHO just the fact that Android leads the market proves that most don't care that much about this issue.

 

[Craigtrain]

Microsoft has always had a swath of developers writing software for their platforms. They aren't used to developers turning their nose up at them, but that is exactly what is happening in mobile. It would be very shameful for them to enable Android apps to run on Windows Phone, it would make them look bad, and I don't think they would ever do that.

 

[neo158]

You do realise that Android apps on WP would happen at the expense of native app development. If a developer decides that they have a functioning Android app then where would the inclination be for them to release a properly optimised app for WP. Microsoft would then discontinue the native SDK and force developers to use the Android SDK instead.

Look what's happening with BlackBerry, they are shutting down App World for Consumers and using the Amazon App Store instead. Not a wise idea IMHO.

 

[a5cent]

Microsoft would then discontinue the native SDK and force developers to use the Android SDK instead.

I very much doubt there would be an Android SDK, or at least not a fully implemented SDK that a developer outside MS would have access to.

Instead you'd just develop your app as you would any other Android app, and then deploy it to a WP emulator on the desktop for testing, or to an actual WP device. When the app is launched, the Android runtime on WP would JIT compile the java byte code to the corresponding WP OS calls. Any Android specific APIs would likely exist only there, where no direct mapping to a WP equivalent exists. Those APIs would have no purpose other than to simplify development of the Android runtime on WP.

 

[neo158]

I very much doubt there would be an Android SDK, or at least not a fully implemented SDK that a developer outside MS would have access to.Instead you'd just develop your app as you would any other Android app, and then deploy it to a WP emulator on the desktop for testing, or to an actual WP device. When the app is launched, the Android runtime on WP would JIT compile the java byte code to the corresponding WP OS calls. Any Android specific APIs would likely exist only there, where no direct mapping to a WP equivalent exists. Those APIs would have no purpose other than to simplify development of the Android runtime on WP.

You've obviously never heard of the Eclipse IDE + ADT from http://developer.android.com/sdk/index.html then. Android apps on WP are a very bad idea IMHO as they haven't increased BB market share so I doubt they would do for WP either.

 

[a5cent]

You've obviously never heard of the Eclipse IDE then. Android apps on WP are a very bad idea IMHO as they haven't increased BB market share so I doubt they would do for WP either.

In fact I developed a lot of software using the eclipse IDE. Six years worth. Although I agree with the last part, I see no relationship between your statement and mine, as mine has absolutely nothing to do with any IDE.

I think we're likely miscommunicating. I'm just saying MS would neither provide nor implement their own version of such an SDK. I'm not saying that such an SDK doesn't exist anywhere (hopefully obvious).

 

[neo158]

In fact I developed a lot of software using the eclipse IDE. Six years worth. I see no relationship between that statement and mine, although I agree with the last part.

With the ADT plugin from Android SDK | Android Developers you can develop Android apps as well, how do you think Android has so many apps available?