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07-21-2014 10:47 AM
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  1. Abdul Rahman Noor's Avatar
    Okay, I know this sounds harsh, and I realise I'm gonna get a lot of negativity, but I ask you to hear me out and let me know what you disagree with objectively.

    1. Limiting choice of phones

    As of mid-2014, WP has three high-end, almost-flagship devices: The 930, 1520 and 1020.
    I say almost-flagship because each of these phones is missing something - either glance or wireless charging or SD card support (in the case of the 1520 it's simply missing the point - we want phones, not phablets!)

    There simply is no flagship phone:
    I mean come on, if people can look forward to and make purchase plans for an unknown, unnamed concept device like the McLaren that we know next to nothing about, then you *know* WP is missing something big.

    2. No one cares about WP

    Until 2013, the one OEM who truly cared about WP - enough to bribe developers and launch campaigns to get apps on-board - was Nokia. Now that the Finns are no longer in the game, it's up to Microsoft to steer this ship. And knowing the dinosaur that MS is (seriously, they couldn't get Skype integrated for 2 years!), melting polar glaciers would probably move faster than MS does.
    Its been months and WP8.1 isnt out yet, Cortana only speaks American, and something big is apparently coming to WP that no one seems to know about.

    Also, the rumours that MS might make an Android-powered Lumia isnt helping either.

    3. Monotonous designs

    Don't get me wrong - I think unibody polycarbonate is awesome.
    But I also like unibody metal (like on the HTC One), front-and-back glass (XPERIAs and previous gen iPhones), and even the rubberised, plasticky or fake leather casing like on the Samsung and LG phones.
    The point is, different people like different designs - and with the limited number of WP devices (see #1 above), almost all of which follow the same design language, it's not going win fans everywhere.

    4. No brag-able or show-off worthy features.

    ...like self-healing back panels. Heart rate monitors. Fingerprint scanners. Or even curved displays.

    Yes, some of these are just gimmicky, but the sad reality is that we like gimmicks. In a world where 160 character conversations and 2 minute attention spans are fast becoming the norm, people like new, fancy things to show off, and then move on to the next big thing.
    A lone Samsung phone (Ativ SE) has an IR blaster. And a few Lumias have PureView which is awesome and is not a gimmick, but cameras arent everything, and almost seem like a one trick pony at this stage.

    5. No rugged or waterproof phones

    A long running gag is that Nokia phones can break through walls; but jokes aside, I dont know any WP device thats really weather-proof or built to take on the environment.
    Sure, we have aftermarket cases that achieve this, but not everyone wants to cover their nice-looking phone in a military-grade case just to make it dust/waterproof.

    Is IP67 too much to ask for? Its 2014 for crying out loud!

    6. Doesn't work with wearables

    Wearable tech may not be mainstream yet, but given that its gaining more and more traction, we need phones that work with the gear available today - like the Pebble, Fitbit, Nike Fuelband and host of other smart watches and fitness trackers that simply offer nothing unless you have an iOS or Android device.

    Yes, we know MS is supposedly working on a smart watch as well, but again we know how long thats going to take. People want their phones to work with what's available today, not something coming out in 2 years (if it actually does!)

    7. Misses official google apps; and games/apps in general.

    Yes, I know, but sorry I have to say this.
    I know this topic has been discussed to death and beyond, but the plain fact of the matter is:
    1. A lot of people use Google
    2. WP offers no official apps for most google services.

    I know the WP community throws all manners of counter arguments, such as MS services are better, or that we have better-than-the-official-app alternatives for YouTube and so on, but it doesnt change the fact that WP does not have official google apps, and this matters to a lot of people.

    To sum up, WP is a platform with a unique UI and great potential but the fact of the matter is, there isnt any true flagship (in the same league as Android) to really help it shine today.

    And in the long run, I dont see how WP can progress when its more an after-thought or plan B for OEMs, seems all but forsaken by its manufacturer, and ignored by the developer community.

    Cheers!
    07-10-2014 05:53 AM
  2. Akssingh's Avatar
    You got a point.... I also feel the same way . . I was looking for a mid range phone between 10 k to 20 k of indian rupee.. But bam , WP has nothing to offer which you can call great... I am also a BIG fan of WP but being honest I totally agree with you...but that official google apps - I seriously don't care if they ever come to WP or not...apart from that ... - hats off.
    07-10-2014 06:01 AM
  3. oviedofreak82's Avatar
    This it's very true. Add to it Microsoft's lack of marketing and promoting and it's not getting things. However, in the broad spectrum of things, of the roughly 2 billion people who use smartphones, half of them either don't care, that just want an affordable device or they have no real idea how to really use the device to its full potential. If Microsoft wants to succeed, they need to reach out to the next 1 billion potential smartphone buyers by marketing their device is "user friendly" or "so ready to use, even grandma's a pro!" Something witty or catchy will get the attention of many. Just look at Samsung with their next big thing sign or Apple with their "there's an app for that" routine of a few years ago; the point is it is caught and it stays with consumers in the back of the minds for years which in turn creates user interest.
    mister2d likes this.
    07-10-2014 06:23 AM
  4. bilzkh's Avatar
    Windows Phone in of itself has the ability to succeed provided that it was under a fast-moving, aggressive and reality-driven company. Microsoft prefers living in a fantasy world. A real market fighter would have positioned WP's low-end advantages on the field earlier when the market was bigger and when there was a need (to trump at the time poorly performing cheap-droids).

    Then it would have moved up the ladder with compelling mid-range phones, but this time upping the expectations (via camera and LTE), but keeping the price reasonable (starting at $300), thereby pre-empting both Moto G and iPhone 5C. Not only that, but this mid-range phone would have been pushed to every carrier and vendor imaginable, everywhere, be it India, UK, Canada, Australia, U.S, Colombia, etc.

    Finally, it would not have dabbled in the utter stupidity that is Nokia X. I get the need to corner Google on its own turf, but there are so many poorly executed decisions (i.e. to push X in the same price segment as L5xx, the WP mainstay, and that too in the markets where WP is doing OK or even good), it's remarkable.

    If one wanted to fight Google and just Google, then they would have taken Nokia X and jammed it down China and only China, i.e. where Google services aren't catching on as well, but AOSP is thriving. Microsoft could have taken the Nokia X and offered a clean cut UI and MS-based experience with some openness (for local Chinese services and vendors), and tried pushing consolidation in the Chinese market around Nokia X. Would that have helped WP? No. But it might have kept Google out for good within a very key market, and given Microsoft a big services user base.

    To sum up Microsoft's problems:

    1. Its leadership lives in a world that can only be described as the world you'd see on TV... They don't measure attitudes and ideas based on the realities of the market, but based on fantasy. They're deluded.

    2. Their capacity to market, message and communicate is sorely lacking. It became glaringly obvious during the Xbox One meltdown at E3, but man, do they have trouble communicating what their products and services do in a clear and catchy manner. I can do better within minutes, e.g. my tag for Office 365, "empower yourself and your work with a productivity suite used by the biggest businesses today" .. or Surface, "engineered with precision, loaded with power, both inside the chip, and on your screen (show touch gestures), this is the laptop-powered tablet for work, for feedback, for design, for gaming, for on the go, and for your office..." ... or Windows Phone, "we took what you loved about smartphones (show generic Android or iPhone), and then we supercharged it with an incredible assistant, fresh UI, your leading apps and games, and professional grade security...because we knew you'd want to be ready for the future, so we prepared Windows Phone."

    3. Their ability to screw things up on execution, see Nokia X, Xbox One, etc. Honestly I think it stems from a mix of living in delusion and the need to make arbitrary decisions for the sake of making arbitrary decisions.

    No matter what though, I wouldn't have been the inept tool who let Nokia X stain the Indian market.
    Last edited by bilzkh; 07-10-2014 at 06:43 AM.
    07-10-2014 06:32 AM
  5. Abdul Rahman Noor's Avatar
    Like it or not, the OP is correct, except the 1520 comment. Many people love a 6" phone, phablet is just a marketing ploy. It is a phone, period.
    I hear ya; and I agree that some people like 6" devices.
    But some (like me) don't, and my point is people shouldn't have to buy a 6" phone just because that's the only device that has all the other features they need.

    If there was a 4.5-5 inch 1520 "mini", it would be my ideal device. But I doubt they'd do that and risk cannibalising 930 sales.
    mister2d likes this.
    07-10-2014 07:39 AM
  6. RavenSword's Avatar
    Yeah, it's kind of hard not to agree. I hope they turn it around though. But I'm likely not to buy a WP. I still like my PC though and surface 3 looks cool.
    mister2d likes this.
    07-10-2014 05:44 PM
  7. muneshyne21's Avatar
    Oh you doom and gloomers. Keep your heads up. Microsoft is not just reinventing their mobile system. They are reinventing their OS, Cloud services, mobile services, software and image (Oh and gaming consoles ). If it was a smaller company they would be definitely biting off more than they could chew but microsoft is big enough and experienced enough to pull it off. The reason they will survive this is because all those the things they are reinventing are converging to a single system. Maybe I'm looking at this in more of a business-making-money perspective which has nothing to do with the likelihood of the success of just the mobile division but if they stay viable as a company, their mobile division isnt going anywhere.
    In terms of attacking the lower/mid range end of the mobile world, they JUST started doing that by offering a free mobile OS version to companies all around the world. You may not see super dirt cheap phones simply because Microsoft may have stricter hardware standards than Android does. From what I've seen, Android could give a rats-*** if a $30 phone runs like crap as long as it forces the user to create a google account.
    Im going to hold off making judgments until next year when the convergence of mobile/pc systems are complete. Maybe its because my phone usage is not based on games and the latest apps but I think they have made more progress with the OS in the 12 months I've had my 928 than the entire two years I had my Android phone. I really didnt notice any difference from Froyo to gingerbread and the last update on a user standpoint.
    At this point in time, I understand that people are impatient and a little disheartenedbut keep in mind they basically went from Android Eclair to Ice Cream Sandwich in 18 months.
    Last edited by muneshyne21; 07-11-2014 at 01:14 AM.
    07-11-2014 12:59 AM
  8. salmanahmad's Avatar
    No phone is perfect, the idea is to create phones with very little flaws. As far as the points you've listed such as SD Card support, Glance or wireless charging all these flaws are somewhat acceptable. The iPhone for example has not even one of these features. The lack of Glance is a shame indeed, but Nokia explained why it omitted Glance. SD cards are pretty convenient however I've come to realize internal memory almost always has better performance compared to an SD Card and I believe all flagships support wireless charging(I may be wrong).People do care about Windows Phone, Microsoft is opening up it's platform to more and more OEMs since the launch of Windows Phone 8.1, examples would include Micromax, Blu and many others in different countries around the world.

    Microsoft has seriously failed to deliver in many aspects, the Skype app even right now doesn't have the ability to send photo messages(last I checked). I believe Microsoft should really work on improving, ATLEAST THEIR OWN services on Windows Phone first and then other platforms, I highly agree with you on this one.You must be patient Windows Phone 8.1 is indeed coming out, it was only announced a few months back and is nearing rollout on all phones, Cortana is also coming out for more and more countries, but a simple workaround is changing your region to the USA, it's not such a big problem.

    I'm a fan of the design techniques of most Windows Phones, and not all Windows Phones follow the same design pattern, only Lumias do. However iPhones have also been following a similar design pattern since launch, and people seem to still love it! So design is a preference and everyone has their own choice.

    What do you mean by no brag-able features? I've shown off controls in Nokia Camera to those of my friends that have a DSLR, I've also shown of the power of Cortana to those of my cousins that love Siri, the startscreen backgrounds are also beautiful and worthy of praise. Windows Phone does have "brag-able" features.No phone on the market today is truly "rugged" just one drop and it's going to get scratched from someplace, your lucky if your phone survives a drop without any damage. I hate how people assume that just because the older Nokia range was durable Windows Phones made by Nokia are also durable. There is no certification at the moment for ruggedness or durability(atleast I've never heard of it).As far as the waterproof thing goes many people are against it because you have to waterproof almost every aspect of the phone to achieve certification, which often means you have to sacrifice speaker quality and put flaps on each and every port of the phone, the flaps often break and are a pretty big nuisance.Wearables are pieces of technology slowly being adopted by all companies, if Microsoft does not have a wearable by the end of this year then you should complain however I am pretty sure Microsoft is working on it, so this shouldn't be a complaint.Ah yes the Google apps, this a real bummer. Microsoft and Google haven't been really getting along very well for a long time. Whereas Google doesn't need Microsoft services to survive such as Office or OneDrive Microsoft still always makes apps for Android however Google on the other hand either completely ignores Windows Phone or even if it does make apps for Windows Phone they are lackluster and leave a lot to be desired.So some of your points are genuine however some are childish.

    Sent from my SVF15218SGB using Tapatalk
    07-11-2014 01:32 AM
  9. blue1k's Avatar
    I agree with the OP on a number of points and would like to add this.

    Can you imagine the team working on the XBox Music app if this was Apple during Steve Jobs era. That team would be annihilated and fired for being useless. The lack of progress and the constant problems that are not addressed is unbelievable. Microsoft has their heads up their asses if they think a slow approach pushing out beta apps at best is the way to run a mobile platform. They need to run a team of people motivated and hungry to develop now not tomorrow. Apple and Samsung are hungry to dominate the mobile world. Microsoft still lives in the era of Win XP. Wake up MS: your mobile os and hardware may not be your main revenue but why put your name behind an inferior product that has reams of potential but no execution?
    07-11-2014 01:47 AM
  10. salmanahmad's Avatar
    I agree with the OP on a number of points and would like to add this.

    Can you imagine the team working on the XBox Music app if this was Apple during Steve Jobs era. That team would be annihilated and fired for being useless. The lack of progress and the constant problems that are not addressed is unbelievable. Microsoft has their heads up their asses if they think a slow approach pushing out beta apps at best is the way to run a mobile platform. They need to run a team of people motivated and hungry to develop now not tomorrow. Apple and Samsung are hungry to dominate the mobile world. Microsoft still lives in the era of Win XP. Wake up MS: your mobile os and hardware may not be your main revenue but why put your name behind an inferior product that has reams of potential but no execution?

    Both the Music and Video apps are terrible. :/
    07-11-2014 01:56 AM
  11. vk4421's Avatar
    I fully agree with salmanahmad and muneshyne21...its google who is completly ignoring windows phone platform...

    Posted via Windows Phone Central App
    07-11-2014 02:00 AM
  12. Abdul Rahman Noor's Avatar
    You must be patient Windows Phone 8.1 is indeed coming out, it was only announced a few months back and is nearing rollout on all phones, Cortana is also coming out for more and more countries, but a simple workaround is changing your region to the USA, it's not such a big problem.
    If there's one mantra that can sum up the WP community, its:
    "Please be patient; we're getting there...soon...I think"

    While patience is a virtue worth striving for, unfortunately we're talking about a world where flagships come out and become outdated within a year. Patience can only apply to customers already sold on the WP platform in some way. For other people looking to buy a phone today, it's what out there right now that counts.

    And for all those people who're interested in an IP67 certified phone, or one that works with wearables, or has a glass or metal design or Google services or TV tuner or whatever...
    ...the current availability of WP features or phones is simply not good enough for them. There simply isn't enough choice for them.
    This is the point I'm trying to make.
    07-11-2014 02:14 AM
  13. Usman Mubashir's Avatar
    To tell the truth, after getting a glimpse of Android L, I for one am seriously pissed off on Microsoft. They are just too freaking slow. That is something big coming from me as I have supported WP and still do for quiet some time now and exploited my position as tech enthusiast to spread Lumia love in my neighborhood. But that doesn't change the fact that I want to see MS doing better than 4% global share and Google copying Modern interface and integration faster than MS is not going to help.
    I'm not saying that 'm going to abandon the WP ship any time soon -at least as long as I need a PC or Desktop, which is forever- but the things about WP that I hold dear are fast running out as others copy them and I don't like that, I just want WP over iPhones.
    Currently, the only things I care about is what I have shall be able to do what its able to do fairly easily, which WP does flawlessly, Android slows the crap out of me and I'm more pissed off on Google about this than MS, and iPhone is like a high end feature phone to me nothing more. 1020 all the way :)
    mister2d, UniZebra and Onager1286 like this.
    07-11-2014 02:35 AM
  14. Chregu's Avatar
    I agree with almost everything. Additionally I think the Lumia 930 is too expensive for being a phone that's on the market under a different name for months (Icon) with hardware you get in Android devices for two thirds of the price. In my country you can get the LG G3 for the same price unless you really look for the best offers, then the G3 is a slightly more expensive but not by much.
    07-11-2014 02:38 AM
  15. jailman's Avatar
    Let me just answer u guys with a short answer wich is i see a lot of people who dont know/care about what is a smartphone or google services is and they have a lumia 520 and they re happy because they have whatsapp favebook skype etc and with bbm on the way its getting happier am not saying ur wrong but come on most people aren't that picky
    07-11-2014 02:48 AM
  16. Oliverspin's Avatar
    Maybe Microsoft isn't so bad. Maybe their phones are actually good. But my god, can't they put out more commercials everywhere. It would be sooo powerful.
    kishorekumar_a and mister2d like this.
    07-11-2014 02:49 AM
  17. salmanahmad's Avatar
    If there's one mantra that can sum up the WP community, its:
    "Please be patient; we're getting there...soon...I think"

    While patience is a virtue worth striving for, unfortunately we're talking about a world where flagships come out and become outdated within a year. Patience can only apply to customers already sold on the WP platform in some way. For other people looking to buy a phone today, it's what out there right now that counts.

    And for all those people who're interested in an IP67 certified phone, or one that works with wearables, or has a glass or metal design or Google services or TV tuner or whatever...
    ...the current availability of WP features or phones is simply not good enough for them. There simply isn't enough choice for them.
    This is the point I'm trying to make.

    Windows Phone 8.1 was just announced like 2 months back, even Android and iOS users have to wait a few months before getting the latest software after it has been announced.
    07-11-2014 05:51 AM
  18. SSgt Bruskowiz's Avatar
    If they get it....manufacturers aren't always willing and don't forget the carriers....at least on Droid.
    snowmutt likes this.
    07-11-2014 05:59 AM
  19. Silviu Bogusevschi's Avatar
    I'm wondering how does OP define the 'flagship'. Should it include every single feature in the world or not (even completely unnecessary like fingerprint sensor).

    And btw, there is a bigger variety of designs in Android simply because there is a much bigger competition between manufacturers.

    I agree with almost everything. Additionally I think the Lumia 930 is too expensive for being a phone that's on the market under a different name for months (Icon) with hardware you get in Android devices for two thirds of the price. In my country you can get the LG G3 for the same price unless you really look for the best offers, then the G3 is a slightly more expensive but not by much.
    I've lost count of how many times you did mention the 'high price of 930'.
    07-11-2014 06:26 AM
  20. Chregu's Avatar
    And btw, there is a bigger variety of designs in Android simply because there is a much bigger competition between manufacturers.
    That might be Microsoft's main problem.

    Nobody is releasing Windows Phone devices in the mid to high-end range except of Microsoft, while these devices still face the competition of Android and iOS.

    I've lost the count, how many times did you mention the 'high price of 930'?
    Me too. I've lost count how many threads like this exist. I guess every time it comes up I mention it.
    07-11-2014 06:28 AM
  21. Silviu Bogusevschi's Avatar
    That might be Microsoft's main problem.

    Nobody is releasing Windows Phone devices in the mid to high-end range except of Microsoft, while these devices still face the competition of Android and iOS.
    Currently it's not a problem. Also, there are pretty much WP OEMs with local markets, like Micromax, Prestigio, BLU, Romanian one (forgot the name, edit: Allview). So we just need to wait. I'm very happy with the Lumia designs.

    P.S. Is that only me, or ATIV SE design is very similar to previous Galaxy phones?
    07-11-2014 06:38 AM
  22. MDK22's Avatar
    Some valid points made - one in particular = Waterproof the Lumia line ! How hard could it be to seal a unibody phone. That would be a step in the right direction.

    As far as Windows Phone in general :
    - chose Windows Phone originally as a cross between Android (very open) & iOS (very closed). With the upcoming changes, WinPhone still hits that middle ground.
    - iOS was not an option because of the limited storage (NO SD cards) & the closed nature of the system, You can do what Apple has decided you should do on an iPhone.
    - Android was ruled out because of it's still (at the time) relative bugginess & the fact that the OS was simply a pig with resources. Combine that with the security issues (w Android it's not IF, but when there'll be a major exploit) which ruled that OS out.
    - defaulted to Win Phone 8.0, got Lumia 920 a day after release, very happy w the device (my wife's phone now) & my Lumia 1520.

    ... and for the guy with 10 to 20,000 rupee to spend, there are myriad Win Phone choices in that range, just NOT in your country and possibly GOOD, but not GREAT. Hard to get a flagship with midrange $$$.
    snowmutt likes this.
    07-11-2014 06:55 AM
  23. Chregu's Avatar
    P.S. Is that only me, or ATIV SE design is very similar to previous Galaxy phones?
    It's practically a re-release of the Galaxy S4 (Snapdragon 800 edition) with Windows Phone shortly before the Galaxy S5 was announced. Doesn't really matter as it's only sold by Verizon USA and nowhere else.

    http://www.phonearena.com/phones/com...ones/8534,7597
    07-11-2014 06:55 AM
  24. Silviu Bogusevschi's Avatar
    Some valid points made - one in particular = Waterproof the Lumia line ! How hard could it be to seal a unibody phone. That would be a step in the right direction.
    Panasonic will release soon such a device. Panasonic announces the FZ-E1, a new Windows Embedded 8 Handheld device | Windows Phone Central
    07-11-2014 06:58 AM
  25. Chregu's Avatar
    Currently it's not a problem. Also, there are pretty much WP OEMs with local markets, like Micromax, Prestigio, BLU, Romanian one (forgot the name, edit: Allview). So we just need to wait. I'm very happy with the Lumia designs.
    Those are only low-end devices by companies that as far as I know only release low-end devices. I don't expect anything worth mentioning from them (in regard of mid to high-end, not in general).
    07-11-2014 07:00 AM
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