Ecosystem isn't Windows Phone's Achilles heel, hardware is

[ScottGeek]

I'm not expecting everyone to agree to everything I say, certainly not. But when my point is there is a lack of devices outside Lumias and the reply is a list of Nokia phones you can see where I'm coming from.
Sent from my Lumia 1520 using Tapatalk

Of course... indeed yes, I get your point... people know of the long variety of Nokia devices, and come the conclusion that's diversity enough :amaze:. The point being, yeah not really, there're all Nokias. Better would be 3-4 manufacturers... Can one imagine where Android would be if only there were Nexus phones available? (which seems like an appropriate parallel here).

In the end though, I would consider Hardware as only one of many factors that place WP where it is today. Granted it's a very large factor. One should also consider the big mis-steps that Microsoft has made during this trip. Like waiting too long to do something about their mobile platform (the Blackberry strategy)... the mis-queues around UI design (all that modern-UI back and forth)... and of course not getting manufacturers (OEMs) involved (well, more than 1 OEM- Nokia)... and then this deciding to do a Google kind of thing(Nexus like) and own the OEM.... Yeap, notice there's two hardware things there :amaze:

Indeed...

~ScottGeek.

 

[trekgraham]

Huawei have made good handsets, they're quickly becoming some of the best budget phones around. They've gone from nothing to a comeback, it seems.

Really I've looked and don't see much for my carrier, I'll stick with my Lumia 521 until I got cash to spare, but I'll only buy phones that will work 100% with T-Mobile and its lte network

 

[worldspy99]

I have said this umpteen times on this forum, so here it goes again:

MSFT needs a true 8XX successor to surpass the Moto G.

4.7" 16GB onboard, 720p screen, 2200 mAh removable battery, FFC, Flash for rear camera, 8MP is fine for rear camera, SD card support, LTE capable. Wireless charging would be a bonus. Processor should be able to support always on mic, multiple sensors - proximity, backlight, GPS, accelerometer, altimeter etc. Price this phone at $249, outright and there is a winner that would run circles around anything Android has to offer and Apple just cannot stoop this low even with the iPhone 4S.

The 635 is slotted just below this and needs a slight screen upgrade, FFC and flash and should be priced just above the Moto E.

High end hardware is not going to drive mass adoption outside the developed countries. This is where the next billion smartphone users are and the first to the race will win. iPhone has already sealed the deal for people who have money in the developed countries. And people who have money and want an option will buy the high end Androids and WP devices...

 

[Visa Declined]

4.7" 16GB onboard, 720p screen, 2200 mAh removable battery, FFC, Flash for rear camera, 8MP is fine for rear camera, SD card support, LTE capable. Wireless charging would be a bonus. Processor should be able to support always on mic, multiple sensors - proximity, backlight, GPS, accelerometer, altimeter etc. Price this phone at $249

They can't make a phone like that for $249 dollars. I think the starting point for Qualcomm CPU's that support always on mic is the SD800, and even though that CPU is 1 generation old it's too pricey for a low or even mid-tier phone.

 

[Zachary Boddy]

I have said this umpteen times on this forum, so here it goes again:

MSFT needs a true 8XX successor to surpass the Moto G.

4.7" 16GB onboard, 720p screen, 2200 mAh removable battery, FFC, Flash for rear camera, 8MP is fine for rear camera, SD card support, LTE capable. Wireless charging would be a bonus. Processor should be able to support always on mic, multiple sensors - proximity, backlight, GPS, accelerometer, altimeter etc. Price this phone at $249, outright and there is a winner that would run circles around anything Android has to offer and Apple just cannot stoop this low even with the iPhone 4S.

The 635 is slotted just below this and needs a slight screen upgrade, FFC and flash and should be priced just above the Moto E.

High end hardware is not going to drive mass adoption outside the developed countries. This is where the next billion smartphone users are and the first to the race will win. iPhone has already sealed the deal for people who have money in the developed countries. And people who have money and want an option will buy the high end Androids and WP devices...

You're completely correct. The 8xx is Microsoft's only true mid-range phone and we need a new one. And you can't say(Visa Declined) that they can't make a phone like that because Motorola did. Nokia has to get clever. The 630 is barely and upgrade from the 520 and the 730 seems to be a high low-end phone.

 

[trekgraham]

The 730 that they just posted on here about looks pretty nice.

 

[Zachary Boddy]

It does, but it's more like the proper upgrade to the 520 than their mid-range phone.

 

[fatclue_98]

Put a 720p display on the 625 along with 1gb of RAM and you may have a winner.

Sent from my LG G-Pro via the WPCentral Android app

 

[colinkiama]

Put a 720p display on the 625 along with 1gb of RAM and you may have a winner.

Sent from my LG G-Pro via the WPCentral Android app

Genius!!!

 

[DoctorSaline]

Also, someone needs to tell Elop and Co. at Microsoft mobile that aggressive pricing is done through reducing profit margins and not omitting hardware in the name of budget cuts.
Case in point: no capacitive keys, no camera shutter key, missing sensors, missing flash, missing front facing camera, 512MB RAM.

Someone explain to me if local manufactures are able to make phones without omitting any of those and still price competitively ie. $110-130 than what promotes people at Microsoft Mobile (formerly Nokia) to take such a route?

 

[coldmail-inlook]

Put a 720p display on the 625 along with 1gb of RAM and you may have a winner.

Sent from my LG G-Pro via the WPCentral Android app

Then you might as well replace the dual core with a quad core, and, while you're at it, add a compass. You could then call it the 'Nokia Lumia SIII'.. :hint:

 

[trekgraham]

Also, someone needs to tell Elop and Co. at Microsoft mobile that aggressive pricing is done through reducing profit margins and not omitting hardware in the name of budget cuts.
Case in point: no capacitive keys, no camera shutter key, missing sensors, missing flash, missing front facing camera, 512MB RAM.

Someone explain to me if local manufactures are able to make phones without omitting any of those and still price competitively ie. $110-130 than what promotes people at Microsoft Mobile (formerly Nokia) to take such a route?

Do we know the profit margin on the Lumia phones? Most Android manufactures have been selling their phones at a loss, which doesn't help the company stay in business. They do sell phones with those features, you just got to pony up more dough to get it. Microsoft/Nokia have provided us with a LTE phone with expandable storage that works very well for less then $200 off contract. How many cell phones do you know that aren't pieces of crap that include LTE for under $200 off contract?

 

[DoctorSaline]

We do know the manufacturing costs of phones and even the flagships cost between $200-250 to manufacture. You can guess how much a budget phone will cost to manufacture.
Also, I was talking about recently announced WP8.1 phones in India, US, Vietnam by local manufacturers. They all cost(retail) between $110-170(off contract) and as Qualcomm chipset is a requirement for windows phone, they (can) all come with a LTE chip.

Also, about bucking up more money, it is my view and you don't have to agree with it, that phones should be priced differently for difference in performance and not utility. Removing front facing camera or flash or sensors or missing shutter key affects utility. They can use different generations of chipsets with different clock speeds, different MP cameras with different(larger) sensors, higher resolution screens, higher internal storages to create difference in price points.
Now 512MB RAM also come under performance normally but since some most casual and good games and apps come specifically for 1gig and store is already deficient on quantity, so, this doesn't strike as a good strategy to me. I have no valid argument for capacitive keys. I find them annoying and hate the empty space below screen and seriously how much cost they reduce?

Fact is if they were a popular brand with millions of sale each month than it would've been acceptable. But they are not and they are seemingly targeting the lower end market and there are better options out there hardware wise. So my suggestion is, if they are doing something, at least do it right.

 

[colinkiama]

We do know the manufacturing costs of phones and even the flagships cost between $200-250 to manufacture. You can guess how much a budget phone will cost to manufacture.
Also, I was talking about recently announced WP8.1 phones in India, US, Vietnam by local manufacturers. They all cost(retail) between $110-170(off contract) and as Qualcomm chipset is a requirement for windows phone, they (can) all come with a LTE chip.

Also, about bucking up more money, it is my view and you don't have to agree with it, that phones should be priced differently for difference in performance and not utility. Removing front facing camera or flash or sensors or missing shutter key affects utility. They can use different generations of chipsets with different clock speeds, different MP cameras with different(larger) sensors, higher resolution screens, higher internal storages to create difference in price points.
Now 512MB RAM also come under performance normally but since some most casual and good games and apps come specifically for 1gig and store is already deficient on quantity, so, this doesn't strike as a good strategy to me. I have no valid argument for capacitive keys. I find them annoying and hate the empty space below screen and seriously how much cost they reduce?

Fact is if they were a popular brand with millions of sale each month than it would've been acceptable. But they are not and they are seemingly targeting the lower end market and there are better options out there hardware wise. So my suggestion is, if they are doing something, at least do it right.

Lumia 730.

 

[DoctorSaline]

Lumia 730.

It's alright. Though I hope it comes with 720p screen and not 480p screen that Nokia is using since 2011. But pricing is of importance. It shouldn't be priced more than $250 off contract.

Already, it is coming with on screen buttons and no camera shutter key (according to rumors) so you know where I'm coming from(I've an agenda against these omissions). #lolsorry #peace

 

[spaulagain]

Where did you come by this info?

This thing called "Google"

Just a simple search will give you articles over the past several years where Android OEMs have struggled to make profits each quarter. Samsung has been the only manufacturer to really make profit off Android and current gets 95% of profits made by Android smartphones. And yes, there are multiple articles backing that up.

This is pretty well known in the industry,not sure why you are acting skeptical.

 

[spaulagain]

Yeah I know about that, but there's a difference between struggling to be profitable and actually pricing the device at a loss. I'm not sure which of the two he meant but it looked to be the latter. The S5, G3, M8, Z2, and Moto X are the most recent generation by the main 5 android manufacturers and all 5 were launched at $600 and up. Same thing happened the generation prior to that. $600 and up is not priced at a loss. Some of those companies may not have made a profit, but they weren't priced at a loss.
Thanks for the Google search tip though, maybe I was struggling because I used Bing!

So if the devices aren't sold at a loss, but they aren't making any profits, then someone must be stealing some cash. I understand that from a manufacturing standpoint, they're sold above cost of production. But at the end of the day, these companies clearly aren't making money off the devices, and are either losing money because if them, or some really horrible cost management structure within the company.

At this point, MS makes more off Android than most of these OEMs.

 

[spaulagain]

Really? Because I took your advice and used Google and guess what I found for 2014?

Samsung smartphones turned a profit
So did HTC
And LG
Motorola didn't.
Sony mobile did, company took a profit hit overall due to factors unrelated to their smartphone division.

So that's 4 out of 5. Great advice Paul, thanks again.

You're welcome. Like I said, they are losing money on either Android or really poor business management.

 

[Doctor Pork]

We do know the manufacturing costs of phones and even the flagships cost between $200-250 to manufacture. You can guess how much a budget phone will cost to manufacture.
Also, I was talking about recently announced WP8.1 phones in India, US, Vietnam by local manufacturers. They all cost(retail) between $110-170(off contract) and as Qualcomm chipset is a requirement for windows phone, they (can) all come with a LTE chip.

Now 512MB RAM also come under performance normally but since some most casual and good games and apps come specifically for 1gig and store is already deficient on quantity, so, this doesn't strike as a good strategy to me. I have no valid argument for capacitive keys. I find them annoying and hate the empty space below screen and seriously how much cost they reduce?

You can't just look at the manufacturing cost and materials when pricing a phone. If everyone had such good margins, Apple and wouldn't have had more than 100% of the net profit of the industry quite recently. It was more than 100% back then because the other OEMs on the whole lost money even if some still turned a profit. It is probably;y better now, but still, there are no huge margins for most of the players in the industry. The Moto G and E where basically released at cost by a company who didn't care about profits, and are this completely useless in figuring out sustainable prices.

The Chinese OEMs and other local OEMs are another story. They might put in an off the shelf camera module with quite many megapixels, but you sure don't get a dedicated image team writing the camera apps because that costs money. If we are going to compare prices, we also have to consider the costs for selling the phones to the consumers at the end, and this is also an area where you can't compare directly between different countries. If you sell a phone in China, it is likely cheap to man the store or website which sells the phone compared to a retail presence in western Europe. The retailers also have to get a profit, and that cuts into the manufacturers margins except for possibly apple which got a better deal than the rest. At the moment the Lumia 1520 is selling for 4400 SEK or so here in Sweden which is 150 Euros below the launch price. Obviously Nokia gets less than this when they are selling to the retailers as this still have to fund the people running the store, the cost for the building, transports etc.

If we are talking about the RAM issue which has been talked to death on this board.. No most apps do NOT require 1 GB of RAM for the obvious reasons. For most people 512 Mb is enough unless they want the latest most graphic games. I could probably run every app but the camera on my 1520 with 512 Mb RAM so it is a non issue for many normal people as long as people on this board don't scare them away. Last I checked, Apple also still sells the IPhone 4S with 512 Mb of RAM for more than double the price of the 635 launch price which unlike the iPhone 4S or IPhone 5 has LTE here in Sweden...

 

[spaulagain]

Ah, but his statement was specifically referring to smatphones. Not whether Sony as an electronics company took a hit due to restructuring out of the VAIO PC division coupled with the performance of the Yen. Smartphones.

In which case my rebuttal was correct that he was wrong in 4 out of the 5 main android manufacturers.

By the way, if you want to go down this road of trying to salvage your argument by going off on this unrelated tangent that still makes me right in 3/5.

http://desertpeace.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/grasping-at-straws1.jpg

I'm glad you feel so good about your argument. I was just pointing out evidence that suggests that, I never got into the specific reasoning behind their losses and explicitly stated that it's either from the devices or from really poor business management. HTC is really focused on smartphones, so if its not making profits, then it's something to do with smartphones. And they've been struggling for years now. So, of they're making money off the phones, then clearly they have a business management issue.

LG and Sony have products in other industries, so yes losses on their end could be from elsewhere. But honestly, I don't think Sony or LG when I think Android OEMs, I think Samsung, HTC, and Motorola. For LG and Sony, smartphones are just a sideshow compared to their other electronics endeavors.

But out of the top 3 Android OEMs that most people think of, Samsung, HTC, and Motorola, only one of them has been doing well over the past several years. And the ones doing poorly are the ones solely focused on smartphones, specifically Android.