03-23-2015 01:40 PM
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  1. Tahiti Bob's Avatar
    Back in the WP7-Mango days it was pretty obvious why the OS wasn't successful: it was missing many features and the app gap was massive. Nowadays, most of the important features are there (Digital Assistant, Folders, Notification Centre...) and the app gap is lessening. Yes the app gap still exists, anyone denying this is a fool but because many official apps are now available I would say most people could carry a WP as their daily driver. So why don't they? The obvious answer for me is hardware. Sure Nokia has released some great phones over the last 2 years but let's be honest, they are all rehashed designs, improved iterations of the Lumia 800. I can already hear the screams about Apple and Samsung doing the exact same thing but the thing is Apple is in a world of its own so you can't really compare to them. They could sell 50 toothpicks and get away with it. As for Samsung, sure they keep the same design but every new phone comes with its own suit of new (albeit mostly useless) features that look great on TV or at the phone shop. But more importantly, from a user's perspective, if you don't like the Galaxy S5 design you can go with the HTC One, Xperia Z or LG G3. If you don't like the Lumia design, what are you left with? Well, you're left with checking out the android line-up.
    Some will blame the employees in the aforementioned phone shops but really can you blame them? On one end you could present your customer with 4-5 state of the art phones or on the other end you could convince them to go with that Nokia phone that's mostly the same as that other one but takes better pictures unless they want that old HTC/Samsung phone that may or may not be still supported. What would you do?
    I'm not even going to enter the mess that is the American carrier business but the bottom line is this: more than additional official apps, Windows Phone needs to bring back Samsung and LG so they release truly modern and feature packed high phones like they are on android. They also need to get Sony on board and HTC committed beyond the HTC One W8. Great hardware sells and great sales attract developers. It's up to Microsoft to sell that message to other OEMs.
    08-07-2014 05:29 AM
  2. rodan01's Avatar
    Sales in the high end segment are so low. I think Microsoft has to create the demand first with their own flagship phones.

    In the low end they did it, the demand for Lumias attracted many OEMs.
    08-07-2014 07:52 AM
  3. WanderingTraveler's Avatar
    I'm convinced that it is, really.

    I'm a 630 owner, myself.
    08-07-2014 08:02 AM
  4. tgp's Avatar
    Sales in the high end segment are so low. I think Microsoft has to create the demand first with their own flagship phones.

    In the low end they did it, the demand for Lumias attracted many OEMs.
    Did they really create a demand for low end WP devices? The numbers for low end Lumias are very good compared to WP overall, but in the entire smartphone pool they're insignificant.
    08-07-2014 08:15 AM
  5. Tahiti Bob's Avatar
    Did they really create a demand for low end WP devices? The numbers for low end Lumias are very good compared to WP overall, but in the entire smartphone pool they're insignificant.
    More likely, the low end phones sold well because the android counterparts weren't good phones. Motorola has changed that now so I can imagine WP starting to struggle even on the low end.
    08-07-2014 08:18 AM
  6. colinkiama's Avatar
    More likely, the low end phones sold well because the android counterparts weren't good phones. Motorola has changed that now so I can imagine WP starting to struggle even on the low end.
    Have you noticed that the 820 is actually the only midranged phone we have. It has the 1gb ram and the same cpu as the 920, 4g, 8mp zeiss camera, amoled diplay. Only the battery and resolution lets it down. But then again 4.3 inches isnt bad. This phone actually competes with the s3 mini but for some reason, they have stopped selling in shops. On amazon it's around 180. WTF nokia, if they just decreased the price a bit more... Anyway I'm sure microsoft are going to release a 730 which should compete with the moto g but they neec to hurry up with that phone.
    08-07-2014 08:32 AM
  7. Tahiti Bob's Avatar
    That won't change anything, it will just be another Nokia phone. Who cares? Just WPC readers! Prospective buyers want high end phones that wow them and get released often. You need big OEM support for that, just releasing a billion Lumias won't cut it.
    Sent from my Lumia 1520 using Tapatalk
    08-07-2014 08:35 AM
  8. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    I'm sure next years' android flagships will ship with 64bit chipsets. If next years' WP flagships won't release with 64bit chipsets because the OS didn't support it then I'll have no hope for Microsoft. *Fingers crossed*
    08-07-2014 08:41 AM
  9. Tahiti Bob's Avatar
    I'm sure next years' android flagships will ship with 64bit chipsets. If next years' WP flagships won't release with 64bit chipsets because the OS didn't support it then I'll have no hope for Microsoft. *Fingers crossed*
    And again, if next year flagships are just new Lumias it won't matter much. The issue is with choice, it's either Nokia or Nokia. If you don't like the Lumia design then you'll ignore the platform altogether.
    DoctorSaline likes this.
    08-07-2014 08:44 AM
  10. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    More likely, the low end phones sold well because the android counterparts weren't good phones. Motorola has changed that now so I can imagine WP starting to struggle even on the low end.
    And now Huawei. My brother bought Huawei Honour 3C for $200 and it has 1.6Ghz quad core with 2gigs of RAM, 8mp rear camera with flash and 5mp front facing camera. And a vast android ecosystem.
    Someone at Microsoft needs to wake up.
    08-07-2014 08:45 AM
  11. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    And again, if next year flagships are just new Lumias it won't matter much. The issue is with choice, it's either Nokia or Nokia. If you don't like the Lumia design then you'll ignore the platform altogether.
    I agree. Though Samsung's design is pretty bland itself, Microsoft do need to bring in LG and Sony (and make HTC keep producing more). Especially after what LG has done with G3 and Sony is very popular in Asia.
    08-07-2014 08:57 AM
  12. tgp's Avatar
    More likely, the low end phones sold well because the android counterparts weren't good phones. Motorola has changed that now so I can imagine WP starting to struggle even on the low end.
    Low end WPs didn't sell well, if you compare them to all sales. Android outsells WP by a 30 to 1 margin, in case you didn't notice. WP fans/Android haters say that low end Androids aren't good, but yet they sell like crazy, and continue to sell. They must be getting lots of repeat customers. I've seen little evidence of low end Android being absolute garbage besides what I read here on WPCentral. That, coupled with continued stellar sales, tells me something.

    My first Android was a low end device, and it was actually pretty good. I actually got it while I was waiting on Verizon to get WP7. No, it wasn't the best, but it was good enough to make me decide to stay.

    You are correct about Motorola. They are changing the definition of low end. WP could compete with previous low end Androids (in performance, but still not in functionality), but it will be much more difficult for WP to keep pace with the Moto G & Moto E.
    08-07-2014 08:58 AM
  13. rodan01's Avatar
    Did they really create a demand for low end WP devices? The numbers for low end Lumias are very good compared to WP overall, but in the entire smartphone pool they're insignificant.


    2.7% is a big volume in the huge smartphone market. Enough to attract small and local OEMs. Probably they need bit more to attract all the big OEMs. They also have to demonstrate that people is open to choose other brands over Lumia.



    WP was better than Android in low end hardware, Android closed the gap partually. But that's not the only reason why It's easier to sell WP phones in the low end segment.
    08-07-2014 09:00 AM
  14. pedmar007's Avatar
    Back in the WP7-Mango days it was pretty obvious why the OS wasn't successful: it was missing many features and the app gap was massive. Nowadays, most of the important features are there (Digital Assistant, Folders, Notification Centre...) and the app gap is lessening. Yes the app gap still exists, anyone denying this is a fool but because many official apps are now available I would say most people could carry a WP as their daily driver. So why don't they? The obvious answer for me is hardware. Sure Nokia has released some great phones over the last 2 years but let's be honest, they are all rehashed designs, improved iterations of the Lumia 800. I can already hear the screams about Apple and Samsung doing the exact same thing but the thing is Apple is in a world of its own so you can't really compare to them. They could sell 50 toothpicks and get away with it. As for Samsung, sure they keep the same design but every new phone comes with its own suit of new (albeit mostly useless) features that look great on TV or at the phone shop. But more importantly, from a user's perspective, if you don't like the Galaxy S5 design you can go with the HTC One, Xperia Z or LG G3. If you don't like the Lumia design, what are you left with? Well, you're left with checking out the android line-up.
    Some will blame the employees in the aforementioned phone shops but really can you blame them? On one end you could present your customer with 4-5 state of the art phones or on the other end you could convince them to go with that Nokia phone that's mostly the same as that other one but takes better pictures unless they want that old HTC/Samsung phone that may or may not be still supported. What would you do?
    I'm not even going to enter the mess that is the American carrier business but the bottom line is this: more than additional official apps, Windows Phone needs to bring back Samsung and LG so they release truly modern and feature packed high phones like they are on android. They also need to get Sony on board and HTC committed beyond the HTC One W8. Great hardware sells and great sales attract developers. It's up to Microsoft to sell that message to other OEMs.
    You are so correct in your post!!!
    08-07-2014 09:05 AM
  15. rodan01's Avatar
    I agree. Though Samsung's design is pretty bland itself, Microsoft do need to bring in LG and Sony (and make HTC keep producing more). Especially after what LG has done with G3 and Sony is very popular in Asia.

    I don't think choice would make a big difference. I don't have data but I suspect Samsung and Apple have bigger market share in the high end segment. People buy iconic phones. Only Geeks spend time comparing LG and Sony phones.
    08-07-2014 09:16 AM
  16. aximtreo's Avatar
    And again, if next year flagships are just new Lumias it won't matter much. The issue is with choice, it's either Nokia or Nokia. If you don't like the Lumia design then you'll ignore the platform altogether.
    Please explain to me how the same set of phones on Apple continue to sell in the millions. I don't have an answer for the WP recognition problem but I'm as frustrated as most WP users. I have the ICON and it is truly the best phone I've ever had; not best smartphone; the best phone I've ever had.
    08-07-2014 09:24 AM
  17. Tahiti Bob's Avatar
    Please explain to me how the same set of phones on Apple continue to sell in the millions.
    Have you actually read my OP?
    08-07-2014 09:26 AM
  18. trekgraham's Avatar
    Most low end Android phones are so slow and buggy that calling them a smartphone just isn't even an option. Take the Prism II for example it's cheap, low memory, runs jellybean, keyboard was always disappearing while typing or just wouldn't come up when needed. I had so many problems with that phone that I wanted to flatten it with a train after replacing it with my Lumia 521.
    08-07-2014 09:34 AM
  19. rodan01's Avatar
    Have you actually read my OP?

    Your OP doesn't explain why Apple and Samsung sell so many flagship phones and Sony, HTC, LG, so few. And how adding Sony, HTC and LG would help WP if they are already insignificant in Android.
    08-07-2014 09:37 AM
  20. Tahiti Bob's Avatar
    There's rarely any rationale behind anything that makes Apple sells, you can't compete with that. They are being outsold by Google precisely because of the wide range of choice available on android. Samsung outsells LG, HTC and Sony because they put a lot of resources towards marketing, not because they make better phones. That doesn't mean that the others are going bankrupt. And I look at it from a customer's point of view, it's better to have an Xperia, One or G3 available to you if you don't like what Samsung is doing; and de facto it's better for the ecosystem. It means people don't have to look away from android just because they don't like the look and feel of Galaxy devices. Windows Phone is lacking hardware options so really the better question is how adding Sony, HTC and LG would NOT help WP?
    DoctorSaline likes this.
    08-07-2014 10:10 AM
  21. rodan01's Avatar
    There's rarely any rationale behind anything that makes Apple sells, you can't compete with that. They are being outsold by Google precisely because of the wide range of choice available on android. Samsung outsells LG, HTC and Sony because they put a lot of resources towards marketing, not because they make better phones. That doesn't mean that the others are going bankrupt. And I look at it from a customer's point of view, it's better to have an Xperia, One or G3 available to you if you don't like what Samsung is doing; and de facto it's better for the ecosystem. It means people don't have to look away from android just because they don't like the look and feel of Galaxy devices. Windows Phone is lacking hardware options so really the better question is how adding Sony, HTC and LG would NOT help WP?

    It would help, but not much. Not only because HTC, Sony and LG are relatively small, also because Nokia is even more dominant in WP and now it's owned by Microsoft.

    Samsung is the Only Android OEM making money. The situation for the smaller OEMs will become even more difficult with the launch of the bigger iPhones. Many of the sales of the Android flagship phones are motivated by the size of the screen of the iPhone.
    08-07-2014 10:32 AM
  22. Visa Declined's Avatar
    Samsung is the Only Android OEM making money.
    That's a misconception that I hear frequently, but it's not true. Samsung makes the most profits, but other OEM's make money as well. Sony's handset division has actually been carrying it's other unprofitable products for years. HTC turned a decent profit this year as well. And Huawei has turned into a giant, and is just now being seen as a formidable force. Do you really think Sony, HTC, LG, etc have been making phones all these years without making any money off of them? That doesn't make any sense.
    08-07-2014 12:57 PM
  23. trekgraham's Avatar
    Samsung is also starting to distance itself from Android, wishing to use their own OS
    08-07-2014 01:35 PM
  24. trekgraham's Avatar
    Huawei makes terrible handsets, my old Prism II was junk rubbish not worth a dime
    08-07-2014 01:36 PM
  25. 0vZ's Avatar
    The problem is that people often buy "numbers", not features.
    In store they see "4 cores", "8 cores", "2 GB RAM", "4 Gb RAM", "100500 MegaPixel", etc.
    And, for very long time, Android was overcoming WP in numbers. When people buying a phone in the shop, they don't realise, that the numbers are not so important in fact.
    jleebiker likes this.
    08-07-2014 02:08 PM
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