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08-16-2014 05:29 AM
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  1. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    It's surprising that people are talking about killing windows phone when Microsoft is all about unifying all of their operating systems into one including windows phone. The problem for pessimists is that, though WP may have 2.5% market share, there is windows8.1/9 on the other end of the chain which is going to be one and the same with Threshold. Universal apps anyone? Windows(on PCs) share anyone? So, the thing is WP will develop and mature even if the pessimists and competition don't want it to. And no, WP(as a software R&D) isn't a loss to Microsoft or they wouldn't just have killed its licensing fees.
    They killed Kin etc because Microsoft doesn't have the market clout(influence) to carve and create a market of something new on their own but how can you think about they running away from a market that has already been established?
    About advertisements, yes even I believe that Microsoft needs to work on that. But the truth is, the smartphone market is too saturated at this point to be affected much by marketing and spending too much money on it may only bring them more losses than market share. Now that more and more OEMs are onboard, it is up to OEMs to market(advertise) and sell windows phone products. More OEMs mean more market share and more market share means more apps and games development.

    Now, the worst that can happen is MS selling off its newly acquired hardware division if it doesn't acquire enough traction in coming years and is a loss to MS. But windows phone as an OS is here to stay.
    Last edited by DoctorSaline; 08-15-2014 at 02:54 PM.
    BobLobIaw likes this.
    08-15-2014 02:32 PM
  2. Steve Adams's Avatar
    I agree with everything you said. Exactly how I see it too.
    DoctorSaline likes this.
    08-15-2014 02:50 PM
  3. tgp's Avatar
    It's surprising that people are talking about killing windows phone when Microsoft is all about unifying all of their operating systems into one including windows phone.
    Reports are that Windows 9 will vary based on the device it's installed on. On a PC it will look much different than on a phone. However, the code is similar, which means that the same apps can be used.

    But how about the apps? Won't they have to be coded to work with screen sizes from 4" to 32" or more? Won't that make them infinitely more complicated to develop? For ultimate efficiency they would also need to render differently based on screen size and device. Variation in screen sizes is one of the things developers complain about with Android as opposed to iOS. iOS has only a few screen sizes, making app development more simple. I would think that Windows' unified apps would make development complicated. Therefore, we could see apps that are "for phone only" or "for PC only", if the Store would allow that.
    DoctorSaline likes this.
    08-15-2014 03:22 PM
  4. Beppe Gissi's Avatar
    If they ever release a Lumia Android, we'll know their end goal is to eventually drop WP and use the devices division for a Windows-ized Android. The grand experiment will only last so long... :(
    This won't happen, they have already freezed Nokia X project because Android was a (bad) idea from Nokia
    snowmutt likes this.
    08-15-2014 03:30 PM
  5. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    Won't that make them infinitely more complicated to develop?
    Difficult not impossible. And the APIs are already in place with W8.1 and WP8.1 release. These APIs will assist developers to scale and optimize apps&games for both PCs and phones. And with threshold release, that should also work with tablets and Xbox. How MS implements it is yet to be seen.
    08-15-2014 03:38 PM
  6. stevemind's Avatar
    Things can only get better guys, more positive posts please! I'm baffled why anyone would buy a droid......
    DoctorSaline likes this.
    08-15-2014 03:53 PM
  7. bilzkh's Avatar
    If only people were a little more rational and less reactionary.

    Yes Microsoft ought to double down on its services in other platforms, fine, but you do realize that too is an uphill battle, right?

    Again, think rationally. Will Google make Bing, Office 365, Skype, etc, the front and center of the Android experience? Hell, in order to bloody use an Android device you need a Google Account, and from there, your motivation to pick up a Microsoft Account goes down the drain. I can't tell you how many Skype users I came across using Gmail as their login.

    Hence the reason for Windows, Windows Phone and "WindowsOne" (if and when PC and mobile are unified). Microsoft's own platforms are the only places on earth where its services can get spotlight treatment. The likes of Google and Apple will continuously work to bury Microsoft's offerings on their own platforms, but they can't stop subscriptions happening on Windows Phones. Just a tangent, but think about the days when you booted up your Windows PC for the first time, did installing Office ever slip your mind? What about MSN? That's the thought Microsoft needs to plant into people's minds...

    Let's say Microsoft fights tooth and nail and achieves one day a grand total of 100 million active Windows/Win Phone users capable enough to buy into key Microsoft services. Imagine how much of a boon it'd be for Office if only a fifth of those users signed onto Office 365 Home Premium.

    The idea of stifling Windows and prioritizing Android and iOS development is BS in my opinion. You can never be on favourable terms on another's OS, you'll always be on a uphill fight against Google Docs, Hangouts, Beats, etc. People are cohesive thinkers, they'll work towards standardizing and achieving commonality and simplicity wherever possible. It's only a matter of time before they take up Docs and not even think about Office.

    Microsoft should really be doubling down on Windows and ensuring that it is a bloody good product. It should work towards making Windows pervasive and easy to adopt for OEMs. It should goddamn figure out its messaging and drive it in no uncertain terms to consumers. The only real problem Microsoft has is that it has too many people up top who don't give a damn about the company, its brand, its ideas, its values, etc.
    Last edited by bilzkh; 08-15-2014 at 04:59 PM.
    DoctorSaline and BobLobIaw like this.
    08-15-2014 04:29 PM
  8. jonnaver's Avatar
    Things can only get better guys, more positive posts please! I'm baffled why anyone would buy a droid......
    I know right? Crazy how the vast majority of the world's smartphone buyers aren't as clever as us particle physists
    08-15-2014 04:30 PM
  9. Blacklac's Avatar
    Number 3? Talk about a joke - that's like saying in a race between a Porsche, a Corvette and a Volkswagen the VW is number 3. Windows isn't in the same ballpark with IOS or Android and if you don't believe it's a hobby show me the marketing for WP.
    My suspicion is confirmed
    08-15-2014 04:53 PM
  10. colinkiama's Avatar
    They certainly can kill it (remember KIN)? Big corporations cancel hobby projects every day - just look at Google. MS loses money on WP and given the low market share I don't believe that they are willing to hang around forever. After all they just also gave up on Win RT after writing down almost a billion dollars.


    And define threshold please?
    Threshold is what the NT kernel leads to. Why Microsoft killed off WP7. Threshold is the total convergence of all windows products. The same experience, no matter what device you are using.
    snowmutt likes this.
    08-15-2014 05:26 PM
  11. DJCBS's Avatar
    I think people will cancel long before Microsoft does. Microsoft has a good product but it has some lazy execution. What I hope happens is that Microsoft would eventually separate its phone division from the enterprise and let the people do what they do best, innovate. Maybe they already have autonomy to do what they do but if they do, they seriously lack leadership.
    Microsoft Mobile is a separate company from Microsoft. The WP Team, if it wasn't yet, should be moving there soon. Then they'll have no excuses (I mean, they don't have them now. It was Nokia who was getting frustrated by the OS limitations and kept asking for GDRs to unlock stuff. That story of "needing to cooperate closer with hardware is hogwash. No one with two brain cells active believes that, specially coming from Microsoft.)
    However, yes, probably consumers will be the ones who will speak. Just like they did with the Surface RT.

    Microsoft is a BUSINESS. Not a charity. It doesn't matter how deep their pockets are, they're not in it to lose money. If Microsoft Mobile doesn't turn a profit (and I doubt it will. The fact that they were moved into a separate company and not into Microsoft itself is already a sign of how little confidence Redmond has in it) and Windows Phone isn't able to lift-of through other OEMs, Microsoft WILL cancel it, like it or not.
    Will they leave the mobile business? No. They'll probably come out with something else. Perhaps with full Windows on a smartphone. Or perhaps with other ways of getting consumers their services. They could always, for example, launch a Windows Launcher for Android with all the Microsoft services there. It's a possibility.
    08-15-2014 05:26 PM
  12. Fade_z's Avatar
    Microsoft Mobile is a separate company from Microsoft. The WP Team, if it wasn't yet, should be moving there soon. Then they'll have no excuses (I mean, they don't have them now. It was Nokia who was getting frustrated by the OS limitations and kept asking for GDRs to unlock stuff. That story of "needing to cooperate closer with hardware is hogwash. No one with two brain cells active believes that, specially coming from Microsoft.)
    However, yes, probably consumers will be the ones who will speak. Just like they did with the Surface RT.

    Microsoft is a BUSINESS. Not a charity. It doesn't matter how deep their pockets are, they're not in it to lose money. If Microsoft Mobile doesn't turn a profit (and I doubt it will. The fact that they were moved into a separate company and not into Microsoft itself is already a sign of how little confidence Redmond has in it) and Windows Phone isn't able to lift-of through other OEMs, Microsoft WILL cancel it, like it or not.
    Will they leave the mobile business? No. They'll probably come out with something else. Perhaps with full Windows on a smartphone. Or perhaps with other ways of getting consumers their services. They could always, for example, launch a Windows Launcher for Android with all the Microsoft services there. It's a possibility.
    You ddo realize that MSFT has lots of cases like the mobile devision?
    Xbox is also separate in that case and turning in profits.

    But MSFT won't quit, if only that they can't allow google and apple to gain permanent domination over all mobile devices, especially now when things are becoming more mobile and less desktop
    BobLobIaw likes this.
    08-15-2014 05:32 PM
  13. colinkiama's Avatar
    Microsoft Mobile is a separate company from Microsoft. The WP Team, if it wasn't yet, should be moving there soon. Then they'll have no excuses (I mean, they don't have them now. It was Nokia who was getting frustrated by the OS limitations and kept asking for GDRs to unlock stuff. That story of "needing to cooperate closer with hardware is hogwash. No one with two brain cells active believes that, specially coming from Microsoft.)
    However, yes, probably consumers will be the ones who will speak. Just like they did with the Surface RT.

    Microsoft is a BUSINESS. Not a charity. It doesn't matter how deep their pockets are, they're not in it to lose money. If Microsoft Mobile doesn't turn a profit (and I doubt it will. The fact that they were moved into a separate company and not into Microsoft itself is already a sign of how little confidence Redmond has in it) and Windows Phone isn't able to lift-of through other OEMs, Microsoft WILL cancel it, like it or not.
    Will they leave the mobile business? No. They'll probably come out with something else. Perhaps with full Windows on a smartphone. Or perhaps with other ways of getting consumers their services. They could always, for example, launch a Windows Launcher for Android with all the Microsoft services there. It's a possibility.
    You don't even need a windows launcher.There are many WP launchers in the play store and all the services are there and they are even better than their windows phone counterparts. Why aren't these services exclusive. I know you have many businesses and people using android and iOS but if you make your services only on YOUR platform, wouldn't the people that depend on those services move over for them? Make WP the consumers only choice for microsoft services. Or else, what is the point of them owning a windows phone in the first place?
    08-15-2014 05:32 PM
  14. DJCBS's Avatar
    You ddo realize that MSFT has lots of cases like the mobile devision?
    Xbox is also separate in that case and turning in profits.

    But MSFT won't quit, if only that they can't allow google and apple to gain permanent domination over all mobile devices, especially now when things are becoming more mobile and less desktop
    They do. And they are under constant pressure to axe those divisions. You can bet right now the Surface division is under scrutiny given the constant money losses. The Xbox division is too. There's a reason investors keep pressing Microsoft to spin-off the Xbox division. That's why they're looking to get rid of XEA. If that's not enough, they'll keep trimming the Xbox division. Same with the WP division. If they have to start trimming down things, proprietary hardware will be the first to go.

    They won't quit, you're right. But that doesn't mean they'll keep WP alive if it fails to take off. They'll replace it with something else. If the division only brings them losses and no visible market share, it's better for the company as a whole to axe that division than to keep something alive that isn't achieving the goals they aimed at.


    I know you have many businesses and people using android and iOS but if you make your services only on YOUR platform, wouldn't the people that depend on those services move over for them? Make WP the consumers only choice for microsoft services. Or else, what is the point of them owning a windows phone in the first place?
    That only works in theory. The problem is, Microsoft isn't the only company with office tools and those services anymore. If people who are "dependant" on Office don't get it on their devices, they'll search for alternatives.
    Remember, it's cheaper to exchange a software product than to exchange hardware. If someone invested in Apple's overpriced stuff, and they don't get access to things like Office because Microsoft decides to only make it available on Windows, those people will not go out and buy new hardware. They'll simply replace Office with something else. And so Microsoft just lost customers of Office to whatever is also available on the market.
    There was a time when Windows and Office were irreplaceable. That time, unfortunately for Microsoft, has passed.

    That's why Microsoft should be concentrated in making sure they offer THE BEST experience on their platform...which is the opposite of what they're doing, where you get better Microsoft experiences on Android and iOS than on Windows Phone.
    The only thing that was selling Windows Phone was Nokia's hardware and camera quality. Well, those two are gone. Nokia isn't making phones anymore and the camera tech on the Lumia phones belongs to Nokia and is now available for licensing (and you can bet Apple is going to license the formerly-known-as-PureView tech). So Microsoft has not only to thrive for compelling services, they must try to present compelling hardware. The problem is that Microsoft can't produce compelling hardware without overpricing it (just look at the Surface RT for example).
    08-15-2014 07:05 PM
  15. Malcolm Clement's Avatar
    They already did. I'll see you on Android this fall using Microsoft apps that actually work.
    08-15-2014 07:11 PM
  16. colinkiama's Avatar
    They already did. I'll see you on Android this fall using Microsoft apps that actually work.
    I know how you feel. I don't understand how microsoft can make such a nice OS but fail to support it well.
    08-15-2014 08:27 PM
  17. stephen_az's Avatar
    I am thinking about switching if no flagship phones come out this fall for AT&T. I love my 920 and would get an ICON if it were for AT&T, but AT&T is not a fan of windows phone and I'm disappointed in them abandoning Qi for the powermat as well.
    So your phone apparently works and you like it but you are considering switching so you can buy a new phone? Any reason other than to be able you say you have the latest and greatest? Sorry but there hasn't been anything genuinely new in smart phones for a couple years other than the fact they are getting larger. People are buying the latest model of the same thing they bought the year before. They are not faster; they do not have better battery life; they are all spinning around the same camera hype; and they can't do anything more than they could do last year. As far as AT&T not supporting WP, I loathe AT&T but that is news to me. They sure seem to stock and sell them....
    BobLobIaw likes this.
    08-15-2014 09:15 PM
  18. psudotechzealot's Avatar
    Maybe the High end WP, Maybe. I doubt it, though.
    08-15-2014 09:43 PM
  19. fatclue_98's Avatar
    More Chicken Little. Gotta love it.
    snowmutt likes this.
    08-15-2014 09:52 PM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    Reports are that Windows 9 will vary based on the device it's installed on. On a PC it will look much different than on a phone. However, the code is similar, which means that the same apps can be used.

    But how about the apps? Won't they have to be coded to work with screen sizes from 4" to 32" or more? Won't that make them infinitely more complicated to develop? For ultimate efficiency they would also need to render differently based on screen size and device. Variation in screen sizes is one of the things developers complain about with Android as opposed to iOS. iOS has only a few screen sizes, making app development more simple. I would think that Windows' unified apps would make development complicated. Therefore, we could see apps that are "for phone only" or "for PC only", if the Store would allow that.
    While you are correct, the reports you mentioned aren't. Windows 9 (Threshold) will not be just one OS that will run on all device form factors. Threshold for desktops will still be a completely different OS from that which is installed on smartphones.

    However, all of MS' OSes will have two things in common: the kernel and an identical version of WinRT. Note that the kernel and WinRT account for less than 10% of the entire Windows Desktop OS, so claiming that all Windows OSes will be merged or even identical based on that small amount of commonality is very misleading.

    WinRT denotes two things. The WinRT APIs which developers use to create metro apps, and the WinRT runtime environment in which metro apps are executed when launched by the user. Since this subset of the Windows OS will be available in identical form across all OSes (desktop, tablet, and phones), metro apps will run on all of those devices unchanged. I don't know if MS will mandate separate UI layouts for different display sizes, but WinRT has included all the facilities to do this from day one. The concepts are simple, so creating a dynamic UI layout isn't particularly difficult, but adding that functionality can still require a lot of time, particularly for apps with a lot of UI components and functionality.

    EDITED:
    In a nutshell, the mechanisms offered by WinRT make it easier to develop for multiple display sizes than Android, but it can still be a lot of work, which is why I share your suspicion that some or even many apps won't be available for all device form factors. MS deciding not to mandate a dynamic UI layout could make all apps available on all devices, albeit at the cost of a display size optimized user experience.
    Last edited by a5cent; 08-16-2014 at 01:49 AM. Reason: added last paragraph and spelling
    DoctorSaline and Laura Knotek like this.
    08-15-2014 10:03 PM
  21. jonnaver's Avatar
    While you are correct, the reports you mentioned aren't. Windows 9 (Threshold) will not be just one OS that will run on all device form factors. Threshold for desktops will still be a completely different OS from that which is installed on smartphones.

    However, all of MS' OSes will have two things in common: the kernel and an identical version of WinRT. Note that the kernel and WinRT account for less than 10% of the entire Windows Desktop OS, so claiming that all Windows OSes will be merged or even identical based on that small amount of commonality is very misleading.

    WinRT denotes two things. The WinRT APIs which developers use to create metro apps, and the WinRT runtime environment in which metro apps are executed when launched by the user. Since this subset of the Windows OS will be available in identical form across all OSes (desktop, tablet, and phones), metro apps will run on all of those devices unchanged. I don't know if MS will mandate separate UI layouts for different display sizes, but WinRT has included all the facilities to do this from day one. The concepts are simple, so creating a dynamic UI layout isn't particularly difficult, but adding that functionality can still require a lot of time, particularly for apps with a lot of UI components and functionality.

    In a nutshell, the mechanisms offered by WinRT make it easier to develop for multiple display sizes than Android, but it can still be a lot of work, which is why I suspect you are likely right in suspecting that not all apps won't be available for all devices. MS deciding not to mandate display size optimized UIs could change that, albeit at the cost of a less optimized user experience.
    Am I wrong in reading this as sounding more complicated than just having a computer OS separate from a mobile OS? I get that MS is looking to leverage their strength in desktop windows to help push their weakness in mobile, but it just seems to me that it could end up being clunky and unnecessarily complicated.
    08-15-2014 10:53 PM
  22. Xpider_MX's Avatar
    Am I wrong in reading this as sounding more complicated than just having a computer OS separate from a mobile OS? I get that MS is looking to leverage their strength in desktop windows to help push their weakness in mobile, but it just seems to me that it could end up being clunky and unnecessarily complicated.
    You are wrong. There will be separated OSes, Windows for desktop will be one thing, Windows for Phones wil be another thing and the Windows inside Xbox One will be another thing.

    Now, there are two sides, the developer side and the user side. The user side will be "transparent" to the user, you, as a user, don't need to know all the inside things, you will use the same App on all platforms, that's all, no complexity at all.

    The developer side, the one you don't know and don't need to, will have changes, but not at level you are drawing. The developers are Smart, they learn, and the Microsoft tools are great (yes, I'm a developer, but not WP apps yet).

    All you need to know about universal apps is that all the OSes will share the same API, with some cosmetic changes (resolution, capabilities, etc), and devs will learn how to make great apps.
    08-16-2014 12:27 AM
  23. Squachy's Avatar
    MS has completely botched the whole WP execution. There's numerous reasons why its not picking up, and its not JUST marketing, its not JUST lack of devices, its not JUST snail-like speed, its everything.

    -They were late to the game with this rendition of WP, and they've been updating it as such a slow painful pace its as if they WANT to fail. When you're that far back in a race, you don't try to pace yourself (unless you know of a way to make up ground and you need to conserve all your energy).....you try to catch up, you push forward as hard as you can. Everyones moving forward, but you have to move faster, otherwise you'll never catch up unless THEY slow down or stop.

    -They're making all their apps available to the competition, and usually in better shape than whats available on their own platform....I see merit in that, but their own platform should get the BEST version of an app (or have additional features) compared to what's available to the competition. They need to provide a reason to switch TO their platform but they're making it easy to go the other way. They keep promoting onedrive as a feature point (for example) which is a load of bull cuz that's available everywhere, and its the same everywhere. Office on everything? Sure why not. WP should have the full fledged one while the other two should have a 'office mini' with basic editing or free office on WP, subscription on the others. Something like that. Cortana on the other platforms? WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU DO THAT?? they have google voice and Siri doing their own thing and staying on their own platform....

    -The hardware situation has FINALLY been rectified. since launch they've always been 1 generation behind, making it hard to do direct comparisons with competition cuz they always looked inferior. Even now the snapdragon 800 vs snapdragon 801 debate is dividing people for whatever reason. That 1 apparently means the hardware is newer technology, while the 0 means its old. But they're still the SAME technology.

    -Flagship devices. Theres been a flagship drought lately and that is hurting. The flagships are there to garner attention while the lower level devices are there to rake in the cash. They have 2, the 1520 and the 930. The 1520 is a phablet, not for everyone. The 930 is a rebranded Icon, so it has all the shortcomings of the icon. Not to mention they're not widely available everywhere.....That's it, all we have is 2 devices, and one of them is already a niche device.

    -Release schedule. Theres something consistent with the other manufacturers. We KNOW when they're releasing a phone. They announce it, usually within a month its available. Not with Microkia. They announced something and we don't know when the hell its coming.

    -Carrier exclusives. On that same note, **** the carriers, release one global phone instead of one phone per carrier...that's just a stupid way to gain market share. You got potential customers everywhere but not everyone is willing to switch carriers just for a phone. They'd rather stay with their carrier and get that phone if its available to them.

    -Marketing. MS just sucks at advertising, I mean the first surface ads didn't show jacksquat other than people swinging tablets around....
    08-16-2014 01:07 AM
  24. Brian McMahon's Avatar
    Threads like these are getting totally boring. Everyone becomes a critic and thinks they know business tactics inside out. I wonder how many run their own companies or just sit in an office taking orders and following the sheep.

    I can see a lot of valid points but MS haven't even hit their stride yet with WP. There are many arguments for this but only MS know where they want to go in the future. The fact that Satya has made the decision to trim the excess labour and put the company in a position to be pro active rather than everyone trying to be reactive and jumping through many hoops is a step in the right direction.

    Lets just see what Threshold brings, there are good MS experiences on other platforms for a reason and that's to bring people into using the services. Only with threshold can MS step it up and offer more across all their own platforms than ios or android. Theres a strategy there that makes sense in the long run but only time will tell. I for one will be waiting and enjoying what I have on my devices until that happens then see how it fits into my life.

    If you don't want to use WP don't, Android and ios offer a lot of choice and nobody should decry anybody for choosing what they want.
    08-16-2014 03:46 AM
  25. Beppe Gissi's Avatar
    Do you guys think that Android will be at 90 % of the market FOREVER? Nope, it will start losing shares of the market because that's how business works, things move fastly, specially in the tech market.

    I think Nadella knows this and his strategy is just to be on the first line when people will get tired of Android.

    Posted via Windows Phone Central App
    08-16-2014 04:09 AM
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