11-02-2014 07:44 AM
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  1. fatclue_98's Avatar
    We all know about the lack of Softcard support for WP even though many handsets have NFC. I saw the hype surrounding Apple Pay as a slap in the face to WP but this may change things. I can't imagine leaving WP and BB out of the loop considering QR codes are software-based rather than hardware. Then again.....

    CurrentC Is The Big Retailers? Clunky Attempt To Kill Apple Pay And Credit Card Fees | TechCrunch
    10-26-2014 07:22 PM
  2. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Interesting. It would be nice if the new system worked on Windows Phone.
    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 via Tapatalk
    10-26-2014 08:13 PM
  3. psiu_glen's Avatar
    The new system however is absolute garbage.

    Apple Pay was at least a simple standards compliant NFC payment system.

    These merchants are disabling NFC for everything -- Google Wallet, Apple Pay, Softcard, any credit cards with tap to pay even.

    On top of that, they want you to...

    Hang on I'm laughing here...

    GIVE THEM YO CHECKIN ACCOUNT

    Let that sink in.

    Don't worry, they'll link some health data to it as well.

    Then store it "in the cloud".



    So when your checking account gets overdrawn when hackers realize these noobs have everything in cleartext under CUST_DATA.TXT on their server, good luck.

    When you have a problem with a merchant...but realize the payment processor IS the merchant...good luck.

    So when they claim they will be using one time QR codes, color me skeptical. Anyone seen how Starbucks does that? :P

    How is getting your phone out, app open, and playing scanning tag with TWO QR codes an actual convenience versus swiping your card?
    FinancialP and grydlok like this.
    10-26-2014 08:27 PM
  4. psiu_glen's Avatar
    Also, I did see that someone was saying Visa at the least was going to be requiring NFC in terminals in their new merchant agreement.

    That this whole thing might be short lived, but they may be trying to do the whole "disable NFC" thing for now to jump start their hideous little system.

    And once they get enough pushback from various directions (consumers, FTC maybe, banks/card processors, etc) they can add it back.

    I'm sure we'll still be out in the cold on WP with our Blackberry buddies though :D
    10-26-2014 08:31 PM
  5. Jas00555's Avatar
    Didn't Microsoft poach the head of mobile payments from Amazon? Hopefully he can get some kind of deal going for WP.

    I don't like the new system they're putting in, but a surprisingly high amount of big retailers have joined in including: 7 Eleven, Baskin Robins, Bed Bath and Beyond, Best Buy, Chili's, Circle K, CVS, Dicks Sporting Goods, Dunken Donuts, Exxon, Gap, Giant Eagle, K-Mart, Kohls, Lowes, Sheetz, Shell, Southwest, Sunoco, Target, Wendy's...... I mean.... That's a lot! Half of these cover 80% of my shopping needs.

    Compare that to Apple Pay which only includes Aeropostle, American Eagle, Chevron, Disney, Footlocker, Mcdonalds, Petco, Office depot, Macy's, and subway (to name the big guys) and its clear that Apple is losing (23 to 10). There are obviously more on each side, but it's the big guys that will drive adoption.
    10-26-2014 08:41 PM
  6. Jas00555's Avatar
    Also, I did see that someone was saying Visa at the least was going to be requiring NFC in terminals in their new merchant agreement.

    That this whole thing might be short lived, but they may be trying to do the whole "disable NFC" thing for now to jump start their hideous little system.

    And once they get enough pushback from various directions (consumers, FTC maybe, banks/card processors, etc) they can add it back.

    I'm sure we'll still be out in the cold on WP with our Blackberry buddies though :D
    That's only if you use a Visa Paywave terminal, which most merchants don't. Almost 100% of the ones I see are some company that begins with a V, but I don't remember the name. Something like Verisone? Yes, I realize that's anecdotal, but I assume that the terminals are the same nationwide and if I see those terminals in most stores, it probably means they're the majority.

    But the name of the company doesn't even matter because their NFC terminals (which are really cool because they support everything) are being replaced with proprietary MSX terminals.

    Edit: The company name is VeriFone
    Last edited by Jas00555; 10-27-2014 at 01:58 AM.
    10-26-2014 08:46 PM
  7. fatclue_98's Avatar
    The new system however is absolute garbage.

    Apple Pay was at least a simple standards compliant NFC payment system.

    These merchants are disabling NFC for everything -- Google Wallet, Apple Pay, Softcard, any credit cards with tap to pay even.

    On top of that, they want you to...

    Hang on I'm laughing here...

    GIVE THEM YO CHECKIN ACCOUNT

    Let that sink in.

    Don't worry, they'll link some health data to it as well.

    Then store it "in the cloud".



    So when your checking account gets overdrawn when hackers realize these noobs have everything in cleartext under CUST_DATA.TXT on their server, good luck.

    When you have a problem with a merchant...but realize the payment processor IS the merchant...good luck.

    So when they claim they will be using one time QR codes, color me skeptical. Anyone seen how Starbucks does that? :P

    How is getting your phone out, app open, and playing scanning tag with TWO QR codes an actual convenience versus swiping your card?
    The system is still being developed but you're already calling it garbage? Please enlighten us with firsthand knowledge of how this system works. I mean, you sound like you're the lead engineer on this project because you're privy to so much information. Go ahead, we'll wait.

    In case you've never had to read a P&L sheet, credit card companies charge for the use of their services. MC/Visa are in the 2-3% range, AMEX is upwards of 5% and even Discover is in the 2-3% range. That comes right off the bottom line for vendors. In today's climate, you're lucky if you're scoring 10 points net. Now imagine a 30% blow to that number and you'll see why these retailers are doing what they are. Swiping that plastic is going to get a lot less convenient if this goes through. You're going to start seeing cash or credit pricing just like at the gas pumps when you go to Wal-Mart, bank on it (no pun intended).
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-26-2014 09:50 PM
  8. psiu_glen's Avatar
    They've already announced most of these details, hoss.

    Yep, the CC/banks charge for processing. Guess what? In exchange, you get my business for my not having to tote around piles of cash. It's called *drumroll* cost of doing business.

    But sure, sign up for a slow, kludgy system backed by the IT security experts at America's favorite retailers! :D They'll have your back when fraudulent charges go through or when you are having trouble with a purchase (with them).
    10-27-2014 10:21 AM
  9. psiu_glen's Avatar
    Didn't Microsoft poach the head of mobile payments from Amazon? Hopefully he can get some kind of deal going for WP.

    I don't like the new system they're putting in, but a surprisingly high amount of big retailers have joined in including: 7 Eleven, Baskin Robins, Bed Bath and Beyond, Best Buy, Chili's, Circle K, CVS, Dicks Sporting Goods, Dunken Donuts, Exxon, Gap, Giant Eagle, K-Mart, Kohls, Lowes, Sheetz, Shell, Southwest, Sunoco, Target, Wendy's...... I mean.... That's a lot! Half of these cover 80% of my shopping needs.

    Compare that to Apple Pay which only includes Aeropostle, American Eagle, Chevron, Disney, Footlocker, Mcdonalds, Petco, Office depot, Macy's, and subway (to name the big guys) and its clear that Apple is losing (23 to 10). There are obviously more on each side, but it's the big guys that will drive adoption.
    Apple Pay was actually standards compliant (they just made a show of it being "magical and innovative with pixie dust"). It was working at places like CVS this week (like Google Wallet, Softcard, and tap to pay CC's were) until they started disabling NFC for everyone.
    10-27-2014 10:23 AM
  10. fatclue_98's Avatar
    They've already announced most of these details, hoss.

    Yep, the CC/banks charge for processing. Guess what? In exchange, you get my business for my not having to tote around piles of cash. It's called *drumroll* cost of doing business.

    But sure, sign up for a slow, kludgy system backed by the IT security experts at America's favorite retailers! :D They'll have your back when fraudulent charges go through or when you are having trouble with a purchase (with them).
    Amazing. Karnak the Magnificent resides among us.
    psiu_glen likes this.
    10-27-2014 11:03 AM
  11. phelme's Avatar
    Uh, not that I love what MCX/CurrentC are doing and setting up a payment turf war, but calling QR codes a kludge isn't really fair. Code scanning is done hundreds of million times a day at airports, theaters, retail (and Starbucks! ;)) etc. Get real people, this is a proven technology you've just taken for granted.

    No, it's not as easy as NFC tap & pay, which has it's own issues because it can pop-up something to choose on your phone or the cashier will make you put in a pin or even sign your name on the payment pad etc. It's not always a faster experience over using a card (I know this through using Google Wallet).

    And don't forget the power of discounts, if CurrentC offers are compelling it could be a draw. Americans love their deals, Groupon was built on it.

    I'm willing to let the MCX explain their security methods and fraud protection (if any) before demonizing a product that isn't even out yet (except for small test markets in MN). The vitriol being spewed out against them on Macrumors is (as usual) amazing; simply because they can't use their iPhone 6's "new" 2012-era pay feature.

    I'm actually keeping my eye on the small Norwegian company Zwipe, who is backed by Mastercard. They are putting biometric security on the credit cards themselves, which could do an end run around what Apple is doing. Their biggest hurdle is getting low-power support to the card itself via pay terminals, which they claim will be ready early next year. The current offering in-testing looks like a small garage door opener which of course would never fly.
    10-27-2014 02:16 PM
  12. psiu_glen's Avatar
    Register has to show a QR code to the phone.
    Phone gets to chew on that for awhile, the spit out its own QR code for the register to scan.

    CVS then prints out a receipt 3 yards long.

    And we all know the knucklehead in front of us in line will be prepared with his app open, and the cashier will have a clue, and the terminal will work...

    But passcode! Cloud safety! (bwahaha)

    ;) :P
    10-27-2014 06:07 PM
  13. psiu_glen's Avatar
    Amazing. Karnak the Magnificent resides among us.
    I'm here all week folks!
    10-27-2014 06:07 PM
  14. psiu_glen's Avatar
    Also, check out the list of retailers who will be theoretically buying into this. Ughhhhh...

    Non-Americans: the rest of the world isn't screwed up like this, is it? You have like standards and stuff, right?
    10-27-2014 06:09 PM
  15. phelme's Avatar
    CVS then prints out a receipt 3 yards long.
    heh, so right about that. my grocery store is the same way.

    FWIW, I found a video from last year by Paydiant, these are the guys who partnered with the MCX and are behind the development of CurrentC. This shows how their QR system is used in the field. It is basically a pitch to retailers.

    From reading a couple industry blogs, Paydiant isn't stupid, they plan on using contact-less methods as well. Looks like they have a Bluetooth low energy solution already (used with the right terminals). It doesn't involve any tokenization at the PoS, but instead the BLE event triggers the credentialed payment to be handled in the cloud. Interesting (maybe that's how the QR code works as well).

    Paydiant Mobile Wallet - YouTube

    fatclue_98 and Laura Knotek like this.
    10-27-2014 08:35 PM
  16. bilzkh's Avatar
    Honestly, I think Visa and MasterCard will ultimately turn Apple Pay into a standard of sorts... i.e. if you want your phone to work with mobile payments, then just build the Secure Element into the device and pair it with NFC and some secure ID method (e.g. fingerprint reader, retina reader, facial recognition, etc). If those three things are found in any given device, then the Wallet will register your credit card, debit card, etc. It is the natural route, IMHO.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-27-2014 10:37 PM
  17. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Rene Ritchie had some interesting comments on Tech News Today. It's not about disliking Apple or Google, from what he said. It's that the retailers want your personal information, which will be given to them for free with the QR code method. Normally retailers give you something in return for your data (loyalty discounts, etc). However NFC doesn't share that data, but the QR code method does share your data, without any benefit to you.
    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 via Tapatalk
    10-27-2014 11:04 PM
  18. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Rene Ritchie had some interesting comments on Tech News Today. It's not about disliking Apple or Google, from what he said. It's that the retailers want your personal information, which will be given to them for free with the QR code method. Normally retailers give you something in return for your data (loyalty discounts, etc). However NFC doesn't share that data, but the QR code method does share your data, without any benefit to you.
    Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 via Tapatalk
    The elephant in the room is security, Laura. Think Target, Home depot, Apple and other data breaches. It doesn't matter if Apple secures you on your end, what happens on the retailer's side? This is not even considering the card issuer. My OP wasn't to advocate use of CurrentC, but rather a viable option for WP users that have been shut out of the mobile payment arena. Personally, I would never consider using a mobile device for making purchases but I realize that there are many who would. I think it's incumbent on us who frequent these boards to have a healthy discussion on this topic but also inform the casual reader about the inherent risks associated with these types of "conveniences".

    God, I need coffee.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-28-2014 10:08 AM
  19. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    The elephant in the room is security, Laura. Think Target, Home depot, Apple and other data breaches. It doesn't matter if Apple secures you on your end, what happens on the retailer's side? This is not even considering the card issuer. My OP wasn't to advocate use of CurrentC, but rather a viable option for WP users that have been shut out of the mobile payment arena. Personally, I would never consider using a mobile device for making purchases but I realize that there are many who would. I think it's incumbent on us who frequent these boards to have a healthy discussion on this topic but also inform the casual reader about the inherent risks associated with these types of "conveniences".

    God, I need coffee.


    Yep, Rene mentioned security as well as privacy also.

    I wouldn't use NFC or apps to make credit card payments. I do like using apps for Starbucks and loyalty cards, but that's a lot different.
    10-28-2014 12:26 PM
  20. ashram's Avatar
    The CurrentC issue that I have, besides hoping your smartphone's camera can quickly and correctly read the QR code presented to you, is the fact that 1) they want direct access to your bank info and 2) in order to add or change info you must enter your driver's license and Social Security #!

    So what happens the next time there is a HUGE breach? Normally, when your info is stolen, you'd deal with your bank or CC. Never the merchant. I cannot picture walmart customer service really trying to help you out after someone drained your bank account buying video games, toys and more.
    10-28-2014 01:01 PM
  21. fatclue_98's Avatar
    The CurrentC issue that I have, besides hoping your smartphone's camera can quickly and correctly read the QR code presented to you, is the fact that 1) they want direct access to your bank info and 2) in order to add or change info you must enter your driver's license and Social Security #!

    So what happens the next time there is a HUGE breach? Normally, when your info is stolen, you'd deal with your bank or CC. Never the merchant. I cannot picture walmart customer service really trying to help you out after someone drained your bank account buying video games, toys and more.
    How would this scenario be any different? You wouldn't be calling the vendor, you'd be on the phone with your bank asking who the f**k took liberties with your bank account. I'm just playing devil's advocate because there's no way I'd be using this so I don't have any dogs in this hunt.
    10-28-2014 01:35 PM
  22. phelme's Avatar
    The CurrentC issue that I have, besides hoping your smartphone's camera can quickly and correctly read the QR code presented to you, is the fact that 1) they want direct access to your bank info and 2) in order to add or change info you must enter your driver's license and Social Security #!
    Apparently the Paydiant system was already in use as a pilot in the U.S. with the Barclay bPay app. Users seemed to love it given the comments on the Apple App and Google Play stores (yes, including getting promotions). Not sure exactly how it correlates with what CurrentC will be, the apps looks similar, but bPay had credit cards too.

    In the case of bPay, Barclay is a bank, they had all their user's info anyway.

    The big piece missing is the fraud protection, I agree. They'll have to address it and I'm curious to see what they'll say. Though speaking from personal experience with identity theft, retailers do tend to bend over backwards to help you these days. Which wasn't so true a decade ago.
    10-28-2014 01:36 PM
  23. iamtim's Avatar
    The system is still being developed but you're already calling it garbage?
    I don't know if it's garbage or not, but it is surely a back door... a back door to your personal information: In-depth look at CurrentC and the personal data they want to collect | iMore
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-28-2014 01:40 PM
  24. phelme's Avatar
    I don't know if it's garbage or not, but it is surely a back door... a back door to your personal information: In-depth look at CurrentC and the personal data they want to collect | iMore
    Interesting read, thanks for the link. Hopefully Paydiant is working to improve their backend.

    And of course it's all about collecting data.
    10-28-2014 02:01 PM
  25. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I don't know if it's garbage or not, but it is surely a back door... a back door to your personal information: In-depth look at CurrentC and the personal data they want to collect | iMore
    Since I won't be using this or any other form of mobile payment system, I'm still curious as to all the personal information that's going to be culled. I didn't see any mention of it in the iMore article you linked, I keep reading about driver's licenses, social security numbers and your wife's bra size. Where is it? Who's asking for it? I saw no mention of any of it on CurrentC's website or Paydiant's. Where are the terms and conditions that stipulate what information will be gathered? Typical WP thread with a gazillion suppositions and innuendos but not one shred of cold, hard fact. At least you provided a link, but it was just more of the same but from another source.

    People, I don't know if any of this is true. Therein lies the problem, none of us do. We don't know what these companies are going to do or how they're going to do it. What I do know is that there are a lot of people upset that their preferred MoP on their mobile devices is being either phased out or eliminated already.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-28-2014 04:09 PM
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