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11-22-2014 07:00 PM
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  1. HeyCori's Avatar
    It was off the top of my head lol
    Guytronic, Laura Knotek and Jazmac like this.
    11-18-2014 05:50 PM
  2. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    It was off the top of my head lol

    You've said it better off the top of your head than I could've had I put time into it! 😊
    HeyCori and Guytronic like this.
    11-18-2014 07:05 PM
  3. jonnaver's Avatar
    I agree with the OP. This forum has become difficult to read compared to the early days, especially since the majority of threads are some sort of overreacting about how WP will fail, how MS will fail, how their lives are ruined because they don't have a particular feature. Just look at the thread today about Nokia making an Android tablet.

    No one wants a forum full of fanboys and yes men, but the complaining here is over the top. It's mostly from people who feel like they can't boast to their iOS or Android using friends about how great their phone is. Is that what young people do these days when they get together - show their phones off to each other?

    We also have a subset of posters that have no intentions of owning a Windows Phone or a Windows tablet, yet they hang around here and derail discussions with how great they think Google and Apple are, while bashing MS at every opportunity they get.
    That can go both ways. There's also a small subset of mods and members here who genuinely feel that criticism should be a bannable offense. It was worse under the last regime though. Most of the worst ones have moved on.
    Silence#WP likes this.
    11-18-2014 07:10 PM
  4. Chris_Kez's Avatar
    For me MS has run out of time. My contract is up and the lack of 920/1020 successor has caused me to pause and survey the environment. My conclusion is that now is the time to leave the platform.
    I'm right there. If the HTC M8 or 2013 Moto X had cameras that consistently matched Nokia Pureview performance, I'd be trying Android. Or if the iPhone 6 was not crazy expensive I'd go back to iOS. Then I'd reevaluate in the fall.
    11-18-2014 08:08 PM
  5. muneshyne21's Avatar
    There is criticism and there is whining/trolling.

    Criticism: Xbox Music is missing old features such as "..." and needs work
    Whining: Xbox Music IS A PIECE OF CRAP! Microsoft, YOU SUCK! I'm moving to Android/iPhone!

    See the difference?
    11-18-2014 08:14 PM
  6. Jazmac's Avatar
    Gee Cori was that off the top of your head ...

    Good words.
    I for once actually read all of that...and that don't happen too often
    What he said ^^
    Guytronic likes this.
    11-18-2014 09:42 PM
  7. jonnaver's Avatar
    There is criticism and there is whining/trolling.

    Criticism: Xbox Music is missing old features such as "..." and needs work
    Whining: Xbox Music IS A PIECE OF CRAP! Microsoft, YOU SUCK! I'm moving to Android/iPhone!

    See the difference?
    When I said the word criticism I meant criticism.
    muneshyne21 likes this.
    11-18-2014 10:35 PM
  8. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    I'd go out on a limb and say no one has ever been banned for saying that Xbox music is missing old features.
    Guytronic and a5cent like this.
    11-18-2014 11:57 PM
  9. jonnaver's Avatar
    I'd go out on a limb and say no one has ever been banned for saying that Xbox music is missing old features.
    Not sure what that has to do with anything but fill your boots
    11-19-2014 02:32 AM
  10. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    Not sure what that has to do with anything but fill your boots
    You said: "There's also a small subset of mods and members here who genuinely feel that criticism should be a bannable offense." That statement is completely incorrect, and I used his example of "criticism" to make that point. People that get banned are doing something much more elaborate than merely offering constructive criticism of Windows products. To suggest that WC doesn't tolerate criticism is disingenuous at best.
    a5cent, Guytronic and Laura Knotek like this.
    11-19-2014 02:48 AM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    I'd go out on a limb and say no one has ever been banned for saying that Xbox music is missing old features.
    I would have literally had to ban myself if that's how it worked ;-)
    11-19-2014 07:30 AM
  12. jonnaver's Avatar
    You said: "There's also a small subset of mods and members here who genuinely feel that criticism should be a bannable offense." That statement is completely incorrect, and I used his example of "criticism" to make that point. People that get banned are doing something much more elaborate than merely offering constructive criticism of Windows products. To suggest that WC doesn't tolerate criticism is disingenuous at best.
    So you made up an example, pinned it to what I said about criticism, and basically made it out like that is what I am saying... Um OK, gotcha.
    But just for the record, I have seen someone banned for being vocally critical of the Surface RT. No insults, no trolling, no whatever. Not even a thinly veiled attempt at any of that. Banned and lambasted as well. Followed by a hearty round of back patting by his peers in the form of post 'likes' by his colleagues (that practice I've noticed still continues by the way) Previous admin at the time though. I'm far from the only one who's noticed. Back during that particular administration I saw quite a few remarks on the forums of the other Mobile Nations sites about the trigger finger reception here at WPC that greeted regular criticism.

    I'm not trying to make an issue about it, you asked so I answered. I merely pointed out that the system isn't perfect, some valid criticisms can and HAVE been wrongfully lumped in along with the whines. Things appear to have improved around here compared to the last admin though, I will say that much.
    11-19-2014 07:59 AM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    Okay everybody. Although this is an interesting topic, we're getting a bit off course.

    Before we return, let me debunk the notion that some mods were out to ban anyone solely on the basis of being critical of WP or MS. I've read through most of the discussions that both current and previous mods had amongst themselves, and I can assure you that is just false. Reaching to the ban hammer is not something mods do lightly, but whenever we do it's always a judgement call, and making that call is by far not as cut and dry as many might think.

    Although nobody claimed it was, I still want to point out that whining is not considered an infractionable offence. Each of us gets frustrated at times and sometimes we need to vent publicly. It happens to the best of us. If you dislike those threads, ignore them. If everybody did, they wouldn't get written in the first place. On the other hand, if you have no real interest in WP yourself, and it appears you're here primarily to incite and enrage community members, then we'll be coming for you no matter how reasoned your posts appear. In these situations it's rarely any one particular post that triggers a ban, but a long history of behaviour and unheeded warnings after which we eventually conclude: "enough is enough". I suspect that is what jonnaver witnessed and may have considered unfair. Ultimately, an infraction must be applied to some post, and that one post may, by itself, not look like much of a problem, but that member's history likely was.


    [NOTE]
    I will delete further posts on this subject in the hope we can get back to discussing the influx in whiney threads and more importantly, how we as a community should deal with them.[/NOTE]
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-19-2014 at 03:23 PM. Reason: spelling
    11-19-2014 10:03 AM
  14. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    Here's a simple thing. I make both critical threads and praisey threads. Point is, whenever a critical thread is made, I get debate, comments and stuff. When a praise or neutral thread is made, it virtually gets ignored. I guess this influences people in some way. Once I wrote a thread praising the start screen and then got shot down so bad in the comments my phone was crying (not really).
    Also, some people are too quick to dismiss criticism as bashing. For instance, I wrote on a Cortana thread something about Cortana UK being inferior to the US version with clear examples, the tone of the respondent was really arrogant. That frustrates people.
    Silence#WP likes this.
    11-19-2014 01:23 PM
  15. muneshyne21's Avatar
    How can we deal with trolls other than just plain ol' banning them? Also if we all rise up to tamp them down they will just whine even more about not being allowed to criticize Windows products/software.
    (Jonnaver this is not a comment to your post at all. I promise. I agree that we can't swing to the "Microsoft is Perfect" end either)
    11-19-2014 04:35 PM
  16. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    Sorry, But did Microsoft make your music app stop working ? Did everyone else that has that same app have the same problem? Did everyone dislike the new design of Onedrive ? should they change it just for you ? They made some changes you did not like but others did, should they change them back for you, then the others would be unhappy. I can see nothing wrong with voicing your opinion and saying what you like and what you don't that's how things get better. But you can't make everyone happy, you take the good with the bad and move on. But on here they just keep ******** and moaning about the same things over and over and over again. And most of the problems are owner caused and has nothing to do with the OS. And it is the same on the Apple forums and the Android.
    Yes.
    11-21-2014 04:02 AM
  17. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    How can we deal with trolls other than just plain ol' banning them? Also if we all rise up to tamp them down they will just whine even more about not being allowed to criticize Windows products/software.
    (Jonnaver this is not a comment to your post at all. I promise. I agree that we can't swing to the "Microsoft is Perfect" end either)
    If someone is obviously trollin, you can ignore them. If someone has a legitimate gripe, engage in conversation
    11-21-2014 04:03 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    If someone is obviously trollin, you can ignore them. If someone has a legitimate gripe, engage in conversation
    Ignore AND REPORT them. That's what the exclamation mark at the top right of each post is for.
    Engaging, responding to, and worst of all, quoting troll posts, is one of the most common mistakes WC members make. At that point it's: Troll wins, you lose, because you've then given them precisely that attention and outrage that trolls feed on, and unfortunately for internet forums, there are far too many who just can't wait to fall into that trap.
    However, I don't think the obvious trolls are our biggest problem. They are few and far between and often quickly banned. They are just nuisances, similar to spammers. The biggest commotions are caused by a completely different kind of poster.
    Guytronic and Laura Knotek like this.
    11-21-2014 11:44 AM
  19. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    Ignore AND REPORT them. That's what the exclamation mark at the top right of each post is for.
    Engaging, responding to, and worst of all, quoting troll posts, is one of the most common mistakes WC members make. At that point it's: Troll wins, you lose, because you've then given them precisely that attention and outrage that trolls feed on, and unfortunately for internet forums, there are far too many who just can't wait to fall into that trap.
    However, I don't think the obvious trolls are our biggest problem. They are few and far between and often quickly banned. They are just nuisances, similar to spammers. The biggest commotions are caused by a completely different kind of poster.
    The biggest commotions aren't caused by one kind of poster, but several types mixing in a thread like matter and antimatter. It just won't end well
    11-21-2014 11:58 AM
  20. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    I don't think the obvious trolls are our biggest problem. They are few and far between and often quickly banned. They are just nuisances, similar to spammers. The biggest commotions are caused by a completely different kind of poster.
    I think it would be interesting for someone to humorously document the history of trolling, perhaps like the Evolution of Dance video on YouTube. You know, from "I hope u die in a fire" to "u mad bro" to "you can't handle the truth." The evolution has lead to the current proliferation of concern trolls, because they can maintain plausible deniability by inserting occasional innocuous comments. I don't envy your guys' job, but it seems like you take it seriously. Good on ya.
    a5cent and Laura Knotek like this.
    11-21-2014 01:08 PM
  21. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    Back on topic, just so it's clear I would never advocate reprimanding or banning mere whining. I don't think it truly violates anything other than common courtesy, so really when we are talking about less whining it is akin to talking about whether one should hold the door open for others while walking into a building. Whining seems to be inconsistent with the goals of the site, but it doesn't appear to be a violation per se.

    I think a good rule of thumb is the "would I say it publicly" test. If the answer is no, then why would it be acceptable to say it online? This conjures up an image of walking into a bar to meet your friends and announcing "Windows Phone is dead! I'm tired of being treated this way by Microsoft! If they can't fix Xbox music I'm getting an iPhone!" I would hope that my friends would slap me silly if I told them something like that. Anonymity shouldn't be a license to be insolent or petulant. We all breach that barrier from time to time, but it makes sense to strive for a higher level of discussion online. There's a civilized and respectful way to make any and every point.

    *climbs off soapbox*
    a5cent and Laura Knotek like this.
    11-21-2014 04:02 PM
  22. Guytronic's Avatar
    I think a good rule of thumb is the "would I say it publicly" test. If the answer is no, then why would it be acceptable to say it online?
    Ah ha...nail hit squarely on the head!

    Off the topic.
    We've been followers of Jimmy Kimmel's celebrity mean tweets.
    A lot of them although humorous are extremely mean spirited.
    Great examples of how atrocious conversation has become on the web.

    I think it's great to let the celebrities read back some of the awful swipes taken at them.

    Anyone on any forum or bulletin board needs that thick skin in order to function.
    a5cent is so right about the report button...some of the best advice here in the thread.
    a5cent likes this.
    11-21-2014 05:09 PM
  23. jonnaver's Avatar

    I think a good rule of thumb is the "would I say it publicly" test. If the answer is no, then why would it be acceptable to say it online? This conjures up an image of walking into a bar to meet your friends and announcing "Windows Phone is dead! I'm tired of being treated this way by Microsoft! If they can't fix Xbox music I'm getting an iPhone!" I would hope that my friends would slap me silly if I told them something like that. Anonymity shouldn't be a license to be insolent or petulant.
    This isn't a bar though where I agree that would be a weird and totally random thing to say. This is a forum specific to this kind of discussion. A better analogy would be if you belonged to a group of friends or coworkers all into tech and you walked into a discussion about smart phones and said, "I'm not happy with the decisions MS is making with WP, especially Xbox music. My next phone will probably be an iPhone if they don't get this stuff sorted out".
    It's not rude but is more in keeping with something you might say publicly or anonymously.
    Laura Knotek and Silence#WP like this.
    11-22-2014 03:20 PM
  24. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    This isn't a bar though where I agree that would be a weird and totally random thing to say. This is a forum specific to this kind of discussion. A better analogy would be if you belonged to a group of friends or coworkers all into tech and you walked into a discussion about smart phones and said, "I'm not happy with the decisions MS is making with WP, especially Xbox music. My next phone will probably be an iPhone if they don't get this stuff sorted out".
    It's not rude but is more in keeping with something you might say publicly or anonymously.

    One never knows, though. The setting IRL could be a bar.

    I belong to two Linux User Groups, and several meetups have been held in bars.
    Guytronic and BobLobIaw like this.
    11-22-2014 03:45 PM
  25. MikeX74's Avatar
    OP, this is a place to express opinions of the things happening(or not) in the Windows ecosystem, and it's not your place, or anyone else's for that matter, to tell someone they shouldn't feel free to post them. Someone with an opinion of Microsoft has the right to post it here, just as it's your right to not click on a post that you feel may differ from your views.
    theefman likes this.
    11-22-2014 04:51 PM
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