BGR: Windows Phone has no shot at ever being relevant ! ? ! ?

hotphil

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I think you've missed the point of Windows 10 for Phones.
​It's "full blown Windows" in that it's the same kernel and will be able to run the same apps. The UI will be slightly different, natch.
 

DJCBS

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Really? Then explain how Windows Phones sales are increasing in 22 countries - it was an article on Forbes. I can't post links yet but it's getting more and more popular. Give it time.

Selling more phones isn't the same as growing marketshare. You can sell more phones yet still have your marketshare decrease. How? Simple: Android and iOS sell a lot more phones than you and people buy more of them. You can sell 10 million Windows Phones, if Android sells 1 billion, your marketshare will decrease. Because even if you were able to sell more units than the past year, demand was also greater and you weren't able to grow along with the demand.

Time is out. WP has been around for 5 years now. If it didn't catch on with Nokia around, without anyone pushing the cart (yeah, it won't be Microsoft doing it, you can put money on that), and no other OEM to take Nokia's place, the entire thing will just whither and die.


I think you've missed the point of Windows 10 for Phones.
​It's "full blown Windows" in that it's the same kernel and will be able to run the same apps. The UI will be slightly different, natch.

It's NOT full blown Windows. Don't convince yourself of that. Windows is desktop. It's x86 programs. It's true multitasking and multiwindows. Windows Phone 10 is nothing of the sort. It's just Windows Phone made to LOOK like Windows 10, running apps that also run on Windows 10 BUT have to be made from scratch specifically for publication on the Windows Store, and it's completely locked up, unlike full blown Windows (no freedom to customize or anything for you, mister).
The problem with people thinking that Windows Phone 10 is the same as Windows 10 will lead to major disappointment once again.
 

Godson Arun Kumar

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Im not an "astrologer" im a windows phone fan thats pissed off and im not the only one either .. Im tired of waiting for some magical appgap to close .. It hasnt happened yet and It'll never happen dude .. MSFT has given up on WP you dont get it? .. So with my tech experience and my business experience.. The WP OS will be dead within 3 years. Its all about apps .. Why have a smartphone you can do anything with wtf??!!

I sure hope you're wrong coz I have all the apps I ever need. Especially local apps for widely used services are all here in the windows store for my region. So can't understand the app-gap you're saying bout. As far as the OS goes, love it's animations, live tiles and simplicity. Losing windows OS would mean the end of my smart mobile experience. Would die rather than use android. Any way can't see what you're predicting in my retrospective of using windows on phones.
 
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hotphil

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It's NOT full blown Windows. Don't convince yourself of that. Windows is desktop. It's x86 programs.
​Just "no".
​Windows 8 and upwards have this user perception problem. It all goes away with one simple sentence - Desktop is an app.
​Bang. The rest all falls into place.
​Anyone unable to understand that Desktop is an app will have problems with Windows 8 upwards.
​The OS is the same. How it adjusts itself to optimise a device's capabilities is the differentiator. Anyone not grasping that concept needs to get off the Windows train at the next station.
 

a5cent

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​user perception problem. It all goes away with one simple sentence - Desktop is an app.

It may be best for consumers to think of the Windows desktop in that way (or maybe not). Either way, it's still technically incorrect.

Even if the desktop was just an app, MS would still have to clarify that although "it's all the same W10", not all versions of W10 can run the desktop app. But if what is allegedly the same can't run the same apps, why call it the same at all? Would it not be more honest to admit it's different?

That "the desktop is an app" also isn't Microsoft's marketing message. Their message is "it's all the same W10", and that is guaranteed to confuse far more people than it will help, with or without the desktop app spin.

You could just as well call a bicycle and a motorbike "the same". Both have two wheels, both have one seat and an almost identical way of steering. One just happens to have a bit more, the engine, but no big difference.. basically the same, right? It makes no sense when applied to anything but OS's that are unfortunately a lot more abstract than two-wheeled vehicles.

IMHO it's best to give products names that reflect what they really are.

At least in my book (and almost anyone else's that understands operating systems), calling two OS's "the same" implies that they support the same APIs and run the same software. W10M and W10 don't do either.

That's actually a good thing and doesn't, or at least shouldn't, detract from W10's reputation.
 
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rhapdog

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​how rude!

​I've been paying more attention than a lot of folk.
​and I think you missed the point of my post. But hey, never mind.
And I think you didn't read my full post, else you would have known what point that Microsoft has been doing that you have missed. But hey, never mind.

​Just "no".
​Windows 8 and upwards have this user perception problem. It all goes away with one simple sentence - Desktop is an app.
​Bang. The rest all falls into place.
​Anyone unable to understand that Desktop is an app will have problems with Windows 8 upwards.

It may be best for consumers to think of the Windows desktop in that way (or maybe not). Either way, it's still technically incorrect.

The Desktop is not technically an app, though it may help some users to think of it that way. On the Windows 8 Start screen, it sure looks like it.

However, what we have here is the following:
The Desktop was an "interface" by means of which people would launch their x86 or x64 code.
The Windows 8 Start Screen was an "interface" by means of which people would launch their Windows Apps.

There are actually 2 separate Windows APIs at work here. One API is used for Desktop programs which are compiled explicitly for x86 based processors. Because they are compiled to a binary format to work on x86 processors, they cannot work on ARM or other processors.
The other API is the universal API where apps can be made for many devices using the same basic API. This is the Windows that is the same on both the phone and the Desktop in Windows 10. The Desktop programs are currently "separate", and you have to exit to the desktop in order to properly run desktop programs.

This is very much history repeating itself. Let's go back a few years, and let me explain if I may.

Windows 3.1 and DOS... Windows 3.1 was an "interface" that ran on top of DOS, much like the "apps" run on an interface that runs on the Desktop Mode on a PC. Eventually, we came to Windows 95/98, where though DOS was still loaded, and Windows ran on top of it still, it launched directly into Windows and people began to use DOS less and less. Then Windows XP came out, and DOS was no more. Now, DOS was "emulated" in a console window for those that still needed it. Windows is no longer run on DOS, but the DOS emulation is still provided, though not as compatible as it once was.

In the future, it could be possible that an x86 emulation app will actually be made available, and Windows 10 may ditch the "desktop" part of the code within Windows (in the far future, several years at least), and instead provide an "emulation app" so that those programs can still be run. As a universal emulation app, it will make it possible to run all desktop programs on tablets. It may not be feasible on phones due to the display size, etc., but may actually one day be possible.

Is that what Microsoft has planned? How should I know? I'm not Microsoft, I'm just saying what is possible within the realm of possibility by looking at history as an indicator. It is certainly possible. Would it be worthwhile? How should I know? What do I look like, Elijah?
 

PepperdotNet

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In the future, it could be possible that an x86 emulation app will actually be made available, and Windows 10 may ditch the "desktop" part of the code within Windows (in the far future, several years at least), and instead provide an "emulation app" so that those programs can still be run. As a universal emulation app, it will make it possible to run all desktop programs on tablets. It may not be feasible on phones due to the display size, etc., but may actually one day be possible.
Now that is a very interesting idea. I am not Elijah either, but my gut tells me that's definitely the direction they are (or should be) headed. I'm pretty sure the Modern APIs need to be a lot stronger to be able to pull off something as big and powerful as taking the entirety of the core which runs x86/x64 applications in unlimited memory space with full access to the filesystem and making it run as an "app." Come to think of it, full access isn't needed, just an emulated "C" drive with the requisite Documents and Program Files, etc. folders. The whole thing could even be a VHDx, synchronized to your cloud storage provider of choice.
 

Oldmajor

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The problem with the article is the headline. I have no idea why iOS is included in the market share domination headline. Apple has consistently been losing market share every year. They may be selling a lot of phones but they are losing market share just like Microsoft.

I don't believe all is lost because just 5 years ago Android was virtually non existent and RIM/Symbian ruled. This is tech, things change all the time.

But for the record, match someone with 82% market share with someone with 15% and saying they rule the market is a bit disingenuous. Should be "With 85% of the market Windows and Android reign supreme!"
 

saulgould13

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With MWC coming up next week it's safe to say MS will introduce more low to mid spec handsets, meaning cheaper phones in more hands and profit margins up. Android started this route if I recall a few years back.
 

Laura Knotek

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With MWC coming up next week it's safe to say MS will introduce more low to mid spec handsets, meaning cheaper phones in more hands and profit margins up. Android started this route if I recall a few years back.


I don't know the global situation, but in the US, Android took off because it was an alternative to iPhone when iPhone was an AT&T exclusive.
 

slivy58

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Patience.

MS always plays the long game.

Yes patience is a virtue but not in the ever changing techno world and especially not with mobile phones, you take the slow and steady route here and soon you'll be sucking the hind tit which is what I see happening with WP in general, since I've jumped on-board again with the inception of WP8 there appears to be a steady decline in the "forward" movement compared to what was seen in the beginning. Me thinks the introduction of numerous budget devices of late has helped yet only because these are unsuspecting buyers, they don't realize that soon they'll be left in the dust due to hardware limitations.

Speaking of budget/low-end devices, I think if MS doesn't get with the program soon and start outputting some higher end devices, flagships if you will, they'll just be shooting themselves in the foot, waiting until Win10 arrives is not the answer especially if the Denim rollout is any indication as to how 10 will materialize. You look at it now, why can't most phones utilize certain features of "Lumia Camera 5" or even get the app for that matter, or "Hey Cortana", that's right, hardware limitations, it is only going to get worse.

Apps are another story, my concern has nothing to do with quantity but more with support and quality, cannot recall experiencing so many problems on other platforms where an app is updated that fails, seeing them rarely if ever getting updated or being pulled and no longer supporting the Windows ecosystems.
 
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plot_almighty

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*sigh* The curse Apple and Google have placed on us all, fine tuning our brains to believe that the short term matters most.

http://mobile.itbusinessedge.com/bl...indows-10-is-dead-on-mobile-not-so-fast..html

....Im just gonna leave this here.

EDIT-Im having a blast reading all the people posting in this thread who just KNOW that WP is dead, that its never gonna over come the app gap, that iOS and Android dominance is forever, that WPs future can be determined for certain on one kind of report, just like they knew from last years one kind of report. Give the article I've posted a good read. See if it doesn't shake up some memories in some of you.
 
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Dr_8820

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Let's see. ...I have been with Microsoft for quite a while now, I'd like to think that I have some insight on the matter. ..Palm Treo 700WX, HTC Touch, HTC Touch Pro, HTC Touch Pro2, HTC HD2, HTC HD7, NOKIA Lumia 810, Nokia Lumia 1520... and market share has been declining since. Here in the States, only AT&T had the iPhone, so Verizon, Sprint and T mobile pushed android as an alternative. With WP, all of the carriers, including the so called premier partner, push people away from the platform. But hey, what do I know? After all of these phones that run various versions of Windows that Microsoft has ceased development and support for, maybe this windows 10 will finally be the one that Microsoft actually sticks with and not abandon like they always do with their products! 😐

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk
 

MDMcAtee

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*sigh* The curse Apple and Google have placed on us all, fine tuning our brains to believe that the short term matters most.

http://mobile.itbusinessedge.com/bl...indows-10-is-dead-on-mobile-not-so-fast..html

....Im just gonna leave this here.

EDIT-Im having a blast reading all the people posting in this thread who just KNOW that WP is dead, that its never gonna over come the app gap, that iOS and Android dominance is forever, that WPs future can be determined for certain on one kind of report, just like they knew from last years one kind of report. Give the article I've posted a good read. See if it doesn't shake up some memories in some of you.

Most people are going by the only thing that they can and that is the past president that Microsoft themselves have shown.

Your writer is another hopeful holdout who is forgetting that this isn't 2007 and smartphones are mainstream now not business extentions as most were then and 10 will be the 4th iteration for WP. While 8.1 is the best so far, Microsofts arrogance relying on desktop numbers and old school marketing has allowed any hope of relevance in the phone sector to languish and now the new savior is Windows 10.

Windows 10 won't save the phone division by itself. It is going to take a conjoined effort of all the divisions and a whole different approach to marketing the phones to get people to want to buy them. So far this has not happened. What advertising has been produced and shown does nothing... Nada to make people want to leave Android or IOS.

I will make my own personal prediction and it pains me to say this but I too believe that the phone division will go away and soon. It is nothing but a cash cow that is costing them more to keep it going than to allow it to die.

The low end devices they are selling isn't enough to keep it afloat and to make a real difference they have to be viable in the high end market in not only the top of the line phones but in the apps as well. This means that you have to compete head to head with the other platforms on all of the carriers and understand what the public wants in their phones. Microsoft doesn't know how to sell it phones nor what people really want. It killed it's best chance when it killed off the McClaren. The interest in 8.1 basically wained and the old wait for the next os to save the platform came back. The traction justly earned for it was allowed to be lost and coupling that with more apps being made unavailable has put the writing on the wall as far as many people feel.

Microsofts vision is unattainable as long as it is business as usual inside Microsoft. The share holders want return on investment and they aren't getting that like they were hoping for. Microsoft is going to have to spend billions in marketing and cost on development of flagship phones and not to mention being aggressive when dealing with the carriers. This is a whole lot of changes and a great deal of expenses and I don't believe they have the leadership to do this for the phone division. They haven't shown that they want to, and truth be told they have shown just the opposite. The more software they decide to allow on the other platforms the less likely that people will want to leave that platform. Those who believe otherwise are just fooling themselves since there isn't enough to get them to leave.....

It's a crappy predicament they have caused because of the potential... But I don't believe that potential will be realized to it's fullest.

Cry me a river if you want but then build me bridge to get over it... Posted from my HTC M8
 

tiziano27

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Microsoft made too many mistakes and now they're in big trouble, not only in mobile, but also in many of their key businesses like Windows, Office and Cloud.
 

metalchick719

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I'm sure spoken by a iSheep or Android ****** but, there are some facts on there...

Windows Phone has no shot at ever being relevant | BGR

A quote...
We hardly knew ye, Windows Phone. And I mean that literally almost none of us knew Windows Phone: The latest smartphone numbers from IDC are out and they show that Windows Phone has continued to lose market share over the past year even though it never had a strong market share to begin with. Overall, IDC found that Windows Phone?s total shipments ?had the smallest year-over-year increase among the leading operating systems growing just 4.2%, well below the overall market.? The platform?s overall market share declined from an already tiny 3.3% in 2013 to an even more dismal 2.7% in 2014.

Down again, showing big companies pulling their apps and why a lot of other apps we never see, or chances are WILL never see.

Anyone else see this ? WTF ?

I regularly read that site. Brad Reed is an ***** and a hater who will take any chance he gets to bash Windows Phone and Microsoft as a whole. Nobody takes him seriously. That site is mostly filled with fanboys indeed and there are maybe two or three intelligent writers up there - maybe - and Brad certainly isn't one of them.
 

slivy58

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*sigh* The curse Apple and Google have placed on us all, fine tuning our brains to believe that the short term matters most.

Windows 10 Is Dead on Mobile? Not So Fast.

....Im just gonna leave this here.

EDIT-Im having a blast reading all the people posting in this thread who just KNOW that WP is dead, that its never gonna over come the app gap, that iOS and Android dominance is forever, that WPs future can be determined for certain on one kind of report, just like they knew from last years one kind of report. Give the article I've posted a good read. See if it doesn't shake up some memories in some of you.

Has nothing to do with the short term but rather with keeping pace, you got to appease the users, you know, the ones that have the most impact on whether you fail or succeed.

I for one do not think WP will die but do believe it won't have the presence where it'll be considered a top player, remember BB, yes they are still kicking but by no means are they sitting on a pedestal as they once were, their downfall was relying on hope and not substance, when the substance did arrive it was too little too late. MS appears to have once again turned to the development stage which is all fine and dandy but at some point they have to deliver the straight goods, as a user, I want a device that is complete before we move onto another level and think the WP of today fall short in that respect. You can't tell me the latest Denim rollout has been a thing of beauty, me having a WP (rm-985) that is still waiting 4 months later for features that it supposedly was touted as having on its release, doing crap like this does little to solidify user confidence towards WP & MS.

WP10 progression will be something to watch and think it will be a good gauge as to whether MS is on the right path, if the transition is too long and drawn out they will just crash and burn, move and move quickly, a home run is what they need period.
 

Gabriel Olaru

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So u lived in a dark box for last few months ? If WP is dead than why the hell would microsoft invest that much money in windows 10 ? The bridge that will connect phones/tablets/laptops/desktops ? And first of all in some contries people started using wp just 1-2 years ago. In Romania for example i see more and more people that buy WP , sure this is a small country not even 20 million people but u need to give it time to grow.
And second if WP will die in 3 years , why HTC, LG , ACER, KAZAM and many other small companies
 

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