03-30-2015 09:01 PM
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  1. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    I suppose the mere fact that (hopefully) there will be a lot of new apps due to the Windows "Universal" Apps - there may be a ripple effect causing more people to get into Windows Phones, thereby causing more developers to jump onto making mobile-specific apps for Windows Phone??

    Or am I a glass-half full type of person here?
    Maybe MSFT will pull a rabbit out of its hat, I don't know. I do know that WinRT10 is significantly better than WinPRT80 (which is what I'm using for my WP app). I haven't downloaded the SDK, just read and viewed the stuff on MSDN, but you can already see the improvements.

    One big problem is that it'll take a long time for WP10 to propagate to my users' phones so I won't be able to concentrate on a WinRT10 app for quite a while.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    03-28-2015 07:00 PM
  2. runamuck83's Avatar
    Maybe MSFT will pull a rabbit out of its hat, I don't know. I do know that WinRT10 is significantly better than WinPRT80 (which is what I'm using for my WP app). I haven't downloaded the SDK, just read and viewed the stuff on MSDN, but you can already see the improvements.

    One big problem is that it'll take a long time for WP10 to propagate to my users' phones so I won't be able to concentrate on a WinRT10 app for quite a while.
    Microsoft needs a way around the carriers to get W10 on phones sooner rather than later. Wonder what their plan is there....
    Laura Knotek and ven07 like this.
    03-28-2015 07:33 PM
  3. HoosierDaddy's Avatar
    So, "Windows" (Universal) apps sound fantastic, but how is this platform going to gain us apps like "Starbucks", "Dunkin Donuts", etc. etc.?

    These types of apps have no purpose on a tablet or a desktop so what incentive at all is there to make these apps?

    How does "universal apps" help at all in this type of situation? An app that really only serves a mobile purpose...
    Just read the first post so apologize if already been said: Universal apps get us mobile only apps by increasing the number of people who buy and use Windows phones. So the people who use their phones for other things than ordering coffee buy Windows phones for the apps that do appear because of universal apps. That means a higher percent of Starbuck customers have Windows phones which means Starbuck will want to publish a Windows app. They don't dislike WP or any other phone, its just not worth the fixed cost of making the app if it just brings in a few customers. Businesses don't publish things like the number of customers it takes to warrant an app. We could be very close or very far, but there is a magic number they calculated and filed away that makes the call. Its possible that as little as just one more guaranteed customer would do the trick or maybe thousands; no way to know unless you have access to those files and analysis. But either way, more universal apps means more WPs, more WPs mean more apps, including apps that are just for phones.

    p.s. I don't go to Starbucks or Dunkin, etc, so if any of those already have a WP app, consider my reference taken from the OP as generic examples.
    03-28-2015 07:56 PM
  4. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    Microsoft needs a way around the carriers to get W10 on phones sooner rather than later. Wonder what their plan is there....
    MSFT doesn't have the pull with carriers to get to iOS-levels of update distribution. The carriers are very powerful. When they think phone producer XXX is getting too powerful in the industry, they start promoting phone producer YYY. Next thing you know, phone producer YYY is soaring up the sales charts. When YYY gets too big for its britches, guess what, YYY starts declining and ZZZ is the new up-and-coming star. It's almost magical :)

    The carriers that I know about want Windows Phone to be a viable alternative but it can never get traction with customers. I don't know what the solution is for that. I thought that carriers promoting subsidy-free plans would kill expensive iPhones but it definitely hasn't happened yet. That's why I'm all for MSFT focusing on low-end prices for their phones. Eventually, customers will see the true price they're paying for their shiny new phone and start looking for lower-priced alternatives. Does MSFT have the intestinal fortitude to stick it out for the long term?

    BTW, a second avenue of attack would be for MSFT to make Visual Studio the best tool for mobile development regardless of the output platform (WP, iOS, Android). Make it as close to a one-click multiplatform output as possible. That way devs could quickly generate apps for all three platforms. Unfortunately, the lack of OpenGL ES support and presence of the cancerous Async in WinRT makes that next to impossible.
    ven07 and prasath1234 like this.
    03-28-2015 09:12 PM
  5. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Universal apps in Windows 10 is mostly the same as in Windows 8, just minor improvements. I don't expect any change in the app situation.

    IMO, Microsoft has two options:
    1)Adding support for Android apps in Windows.
    2)Wait 10 years until innovation in phones stops and HTML5 is adopted as the platform for mobile.

    We all can agree that support for Android apps is the only way forward.
    03-28-2015 09:20 PM
  6. tgp's Avatar
    We all can agree that support for Android apps is the only way forward.
    I don't think we all can agree on that! I think it would be more reasonable to agree that the universal app strategy in Windows 10 is the only way forward. A form of the universal app model is already present in W8.1/WP8.1. The problem is that it didn't seem to do much of anything. It remains to be seen how it will play out in Windows 10.

    It is possible that support for Android apps is what is needed. However, I believe the likelihood of that working is far less than the likelihood of universal apps working, as far as giving WP the propulsion it needs.
    03-28-2015 09:58 PM
  7. Mike Gibson's Avatar
    Universal apps in Windows 10 is mostly the same as in Windows 8, just minor improvements.
    No, there are significant improvements in WinRT10 compared to WinRT81. For example, I can use a single source tree that will run on WP, XBOX, and a PC. In WinRT81 you had to create two different trees. That's a huge logistical improvement right there. In addition, they've added adaptive controls and the concept of "screen size triggers" to help deal with the huge variation in screen sizes across devices. These were two of the points in my email opus to SteveB back in early 2013 (which was a vent ... but someone actually read it because I was contacted by an EE at MSFT- not that it had anything to do with the changes in WinRT10).

    I don't think these changes will stop the bleeding because of the other fatal flaws in the WinRT concept and implementation. I think that MSFT has to adopt an "embrace" policy right now with regards to the other platforms. They can worry about the "Extend, and Extinguish" part in the distant future.
    Laura Knotek and a5cent like this.
    03-28-2015 11:25 PM
  8. Spectrum90's Avatar
    No, there are significant improvements in WinRT10 compared to WinRT81. For example, I can use a single source tree that will run on WP, XBOX, and a PC. In WinRT81 you had to create two different trees. That's a huge logistical improvement right there. In addition, they've added adaptive controls and the concept of "screen size triggers" to help deal with the huge variation in screen sizes across devices.
    You can already use a single source tree with Universal apps in 8.1. Compilation constants are used to fork the code when there are differences. The "Shared" project automate the management of the files. Phone and desktop/tablet share 90% of the API surface.
    In Windows 10, additionally you can compile a single binary because WinRT expose the whole API surface to all the targets, even if some parts are device-specific, but those parts throw exceptions, so you have to move the conditional logic to the runtime code. That's a little improvement that has both benefits and drawbacks.
    Adaptive controls were introduced in 8.1, for example the Hub control, and of course most of the basic controls (textbox, etc.).
    Other minor improvement in 10.0 is better support for responsive design, It's a bit easier with the relative panel and improvements in "visual states". However, responsive design doesn't produce the best results, probably an Android apps would be better.

    In conclusion, minor changes that won't alter the result in a significant way.


    It is possible that support for Android apps is what is needed. However, I believe the likelihood of that working is far less than the likelihood of universal apps working, as far as giving WP the propulsion it needs.
    How are you calculating those likelihoods?
    Universal apps already failed in 8.1. Since when repeating the same thing could bring different results?
    The only relevant change in 10.0 is the higher adoption expected in Desktops. Although, as was discussed in many threads in this forum, people don't use the PC for the same tasks than phones and tablets. In addition, the development platform for the desktop is the web. If developer are interested in being published in the Windows store, and get real estate in the start menu, they can pack their current desktop sites and extended them with platform specific features. What's the point of investing thousand of dollars in developing for a new platform, language and API?
    03-29-2015 08:45 AM
  9. runamuck83's Avatar
    The only relevant change in 10.0 is the higher adoption expected in Desktops. Although, as was discussed in many threads in this forum, people don't use the PC for the same tasks than phones and tablets. In addition, the development platform for the desktop is the web.
    I wouldn't mind a nice set of universal apps for my desktop. I can see a facebook desktop app or even instagram? But my concern was more with the truly mobile-only type apps.

    Personally the only thing I think the universal apps are going to gain us are more games... Sadly
    prasath1234 likes this.
    03-29-2015 09:56 AM
  10. neo158's Avatar
    You guys are also forgetting about Xamarin which will make it much easier to port apps from iOS and Android to Windows.

    Microsoft are trying to make it easier for developers not harder, so between Xamarin and Windows Apps there is no reason for developers not to bring their apps to Windows.
    alexander0311 likes this.
    03-29-2015 10:40 AM
  11. alexander0311's Avatar
    You guys are also forgetting about Xamarin which will make it much easier to port apps from iOS and Android to Windows.

    Microsoft are trying to make it easier for developers not harder, so between Xamarin and Windows Apps there is no reason for developers not to bring their apps to Windows.
    just googled it since im not a developer. it looks good. ms should somehow push further their winRT in order make easier for developers to use even more code from their ios and android apps into windows apps
    03-29-2015 12:32 PM
  12. HoosierDaddy's Avatar
    just googled it
    Oh no! Don't you know that every time you Google a kitten dies (but not before getting a bunch or targeted ads)? LoL
    RumoredNow likes this.
    03-29-2015 01:26 PM
  13. alexander0311's Avatar
    Oh no! Don't you know that every time you Google a kitten dies (but not before getting a bunch or targeted ads)? LoL
    lmao. yup im not (yet) using bing. one day maybe ill give it a try (maybe with spartan), but also i dont know how good is it in my country (romania). as for adds, internet is already filled with them, for the majority i run adblock.
    03-29-2015 02:32 PM
  14. Geddeeee's Avatar
    So, "Windows" (Universal) apps sound fantastic, but how is this platform going to gain us apps like "Starbucks", "Dunkin Donuts", etc. etc.?

    These types of apps have no purpose on a tablet or a desktop so what incentive at all is there to make these apps?

    How does "universal apps" help at all in this type of situation? An app that really only serves a mobile purpose...
    Why I would want apps for a coffee shop and a doughnut store, is beyond me. Must be a U.S. thing!!!! Unbelievable...
    03-29-2015 02:56 PM
  15. forked's Avatar
    I'm hoping that the 'Universal' in Universal apps doesn't just mean universal to the various form factors of Windows but universal to the major platforms. Being able to write the code once and deploy to multiple stores simultaneously would be truly universal. I know Xamarin helps with this but if I understand correctly it has some limitations. Maybe they have found a way to get past them. Looking forward to learning more at Build.
    03-29-2015 03:00 PM
  16. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Why I would want apps for a coffee shop and a doughnut store, is beyond me. Must be a U.S. thing!!!! Unbelievable...
    The Starbucks app allows one to use his or her Starbucks card to pay for coffee without getting the physical card out of the wallet or even needing to carry the physical card in a wallet. The cashier just scans the barcode on the phone. It's faster for most people to take their phones out of their pockets than to look for a physical card in their wallets.

    Starbucks Gold members get discounts on coffee, free refills and free cup after 12 purchases. The Gold members have Gold cards. As a result, it's more beneficial than paying cash or using a credit card.

    If I tap on the image of the card, my barcode will appear.



    Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk
    03-29-2015 03:05 PM
  17. Jas00555's Avatar
    Do we have any reliable Windows Tablet numbers?
    After digging around for a while, the best I could find is this

    Worldwide Tablet Growth Hits the Brakes, Slowing to the Low Single Digits in the Years Ahead, According to IDC - prUS25480015

    For those too lazy to click:
    Windows tablets were 5% in 2014 (although half of that year, Windows wasn't free on cheap tablets). IDC projects Windows to have 7% by the end of this year and 15% by 2019 (although I think we can throw that last one out of the window).

    So assuming that they're correct on this, that would leave Windows 10 with probably 60% market share on desktop/laptop, 6% on tablets, and like 3% on phones.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    Frankly, I don't think that Windows 10 will fix every app gap, but I do think that it will close the gap on media consumption (HBO, Sling, etc...) and games. Mainly because of the Xbox. It's also possible that a developer of something like a bank could make a Universal web app for Windows 10 and that could bring Chase or BoA back into the store (many bank apps for Android are basically web wrappers).

    What Windows 10 could do, however, is create positive momentum for Windows as a whole and increase phone and tablet sales, thus increasing market share, and thus getting these apps that the OP is asking for.
    Last edited by Jas00555; 03-29-2015 at 08:09 PM.
    03-29-2015 03:51 PM
  18. jhoff80's Avatar
    You guys are also forgetting about Xamarin which will make it much easier to port apps from iOS and Android to Windows.

    Microsoft are trying to make it easier for developers not harder, so between Xamarin and Windows Apps there is no reason for developers not to bring their apps to Windows.
    ​That isn't what Xamarin does. Xamarin lets a developer code using .NET / C# and compile that to an Android/iOS native program (in addition to Windows). It doesn't let the developer port a generic Android or iOS program to Windows.

    I have to agree with the OP. I don't think Universal apps are going to change very much. Even the newly popular (this week) Periscope app for Twitter... there's no reason for Twitter to develop that for the Windows PC, so there's no added incentive here for them on top of developing for Windows Phone.

    If anything is going to help Windows, maybe it'll be the improved integration that 'web apps' have in Windows 10 (basically, a website can be packaged as an 'app' and given access to notifications, Cortana, calendar, etc.) , but I don't think Universal apps are going to bring in new popular apps. They'll just improve the stuff that we already have in the Store.
    a5cent likes this.
    03-29-2015 05:24 PM
  19. rhapdog's Avatar
    If I don't have an app I use the browser. Work well for me
    Browser works well in most situations.

    Okay, people, there is something going on with Windows 10 that NONE of you have mentioned, and probably none of you considered. I watched that Win10 SDK video several times. I noticed how in the new Windows 10 store, a developer will be able to send Microsoft URL to be published in the store. MS will add it as a web wrapper app, with the web wrapper pointing to that URL. So, all developers need to do is to write a web app in HTML 5 for all smartphones, create the appropriate wrapper for iOS and Android, then publish the URL only to Windows Store, and they don't even have to write a separate app for Windows 10. It's automatic.

    As a bonus, a developer that wants to do something specific with Windows Phone will have the full Windows 10 API built into the JavaScript and can call an API to bring up contacts, camera, photos, etc. For the multitude of apps out there that could basically be done on the web, and are actually done on the web, this will open up a plethora of apps simply by developers using standard HTML5 to develop pages for the mobile audience.

    This alone could close the app gap for banking apps and retail apps, with Starbucks and Dunkin Donuts being part of the retail app category.

    Why wouldn't they do this? Imagine developers no longer having to write an iOS app and an Android app, but instead can concentrate on creating proper HTML5 pages that are mobile friendly. All that would be needed is the web wrapper which would point to the URL. Suddenly, developers can instantly develop for iOS, Android, Windows 10, and Blackberry along with a number of other smaller mobile OSes, without having to port the code. No, it won't work for games, but who cares? We're talking about bringing productivity to the consumer and meeting the consumer where they are.

    Another bonus to this is that the developer would no longer have to push app updates to the various stores. Simply making a change on the code on the web site would update the app, since the app only points to the web application to start with. All app platforms will be updated simultaneously when the web app is updated. No more working on one, then on another by porting the code. Easier for developers, lower cost for app companies to maintain. This is the way it should have been done to start with, but Microsoft is going to really be pushing this particular feature to developers, because they have made it easier than ever, largely because you don't have to write a web wrapper for WP any longer. The W10 store will take care of that for you. Just send Microsoft the URL.

    There are a lot of possibilities here.
    a5cent, RumoredNow and prasath1234 like this.
    03-29-2015 05:30 PM
  20. runamuck83's Avatar
    Seems like from experience web wrapper apps are very poor performing compared to native apps...
    03-29-2015 05:36 PM
  21. jhoff80's Avatar
    Okay, people, there is something going on with Windows 10 that NONE of you have mentioned, and probably none of you considered.
    Pretty sure that's exactly what jas00555 and I were talking about literally in the two comments above you when we mentioned web apps. ;)
    03-29-2015 05:40 PM
  22. rhapdog's Avatar
    Pretty sure that's exactly what jas00555 and I were talking about literally in the two comments above you when we mentioned web apps. ;)
    How did I miss that? Yeah, it will help, I believe.

    Seems like from experience web wrapper apps are very poor performing compared to native apps...
    Web wrapper apps are only poor performing when the web app itself is poorly written, as in the person coding the HTML is a person who learned HTML over the weekend and fancies themselves a web programmer. I see that kind of horrid web site all the time. If people would put half the effort into a proper web page instead of splitting all their resources into multiple apps for iOS and Android, it would provide a better/smoother experience for everyone as well as save the company time and money.

    Web app wrappers on android are especially bad, because Google. Sorry, but Google's services have a bad time handling all the different ways of pointer/touch. They have finally come around and will begin using Microsoft's API for handling pointer events and touch events which should help smooth things out on Chrome and Android. Microsoft is working with Google to help it happen, nice guys that they are.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    03-29-2015 05:50 PM
  23. runamuck83's Avatar
    How did I miss that? Yeah, it will help, I believe.


    Web wrapper apps are only poor performing when the web app itself is poorly written, as in the person coding the HTML is a person who learned HTML over the weekend and fancies themselves a web programmer. I see that kind of horrid web site all the time. If people would put half the effort into a proper web page instead of splitting all their resources into multiple apps for iOS and Android, it would provide a better/smoother experience for everyone as well as save the company time and money.

    Web app wrappers on android are especially bad, because Google. Sorry, but Google's services have a bad time handling all the different ways of pointer/touch. They have finally come around and will begin using Microsoft's API for handling pointer events and touch events which should help smooth things out on Chrome and Android. Microsoft is working with Google to help it happen, nice guys that they are.
    Is there a web wrapper app that currently exists in the WP store that you'd recommend as an example of a well developed one?
    03-29-2015 06:01 PM
  24. Alain_A's Avatar
    Microsoft is working with Google to help it happen, nice guys that they are
    And get paid for it
    prasath1234 likes this.
    03-29-2015 07:04 PM
  25. drachen23's Avatar
    So, "Windows" (Universal) apps sound fantastic, but how is this platform going to gain us apps like "Starbucks", "Dunkin Donuts", etc. etc.?

    These types of apps have no purpose on a tablet or a desktop so what incentive at all is there to make these apps?

    How does "universal apps" help at all in this type of situation? An app that really only serves a mobile purpose...
    Had a quick look through the thread but I don't think anyone said this yet: MS is playing a long game and are basically preparing to use their Big eFFing Gun--Windows current market popularity--to prop up Windows 10 Phone (or whatever it's going to be called). If this fails, there's not much more they can do. The idea starts with letting all Windows 7 and Windows 8.x PCs upgrade for free for the first year of Windows 10's existence. Assuming all eligible users update immediately, that's about 70% of the Windows user base as opposed to about 15% now.

    Step 2 is that they go to developers and say "Want your app to run on 70% of all the PCs out there? Build for Windows!" The catch with Universal apps is that every Windows 10 app can also run on the phone. That wasn't true with Win8.1/WP8.1 apps. You had to specifically make it spit out two apps. MS isn't hoping that this vaults Win10 Phone up to Android level, but that it makes developers start to look at the platform as one worth supporting. It's not going to get the latest Instagram app just because PC support is high, but the idea is to get things like a regularly-updated 1st-party Facebook or Chase app. If Win10 desktop gets it, Win10 Phone gets it. If this flood of new, 1st party apps revitalizes Windows Phone as a legitimate developer target, it could take off as a true third mobile OS and lead to the hot mobile-specific apps hitting the phone and getting updates regularly.

    That's the theory, anyway. There are so many ways this could fail: Users could use Windows 10 apps at the same pitiful rate as they do on Win 8.x. The new unified UI and prominent store should help there immensely. Developers may not care much about desktop apps. Most of the hottest apps are meant to solve mobile-only problems. VS backers are more impressed by "Our product will enable people to do X on their phone," than "Our product will enable people to do X on their desktop." Even if Win10 catches fire, there's no guarantee that Win10 Phone will. It's already a known quantity to users and to the carriers.If Win10 starts to move some handsets, the carriers who are desperate for another major OS might give Win10 Phone more of a boost.

    Honestly I think it's a bit of a long shot, but it does appear to be their strategy going forward. If this doesn't pan out, I don't really see much of a reason not to kill the phone OS off entirely.
    RumoredNow and prasath1234 like this.
    03-29-2015 07:13 PM
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