05-01-2015 03:43 PM
52 123
tools
  1. Tsang Fai's Avatar
    Right on the money with this one my friend. It's the reason I left Apple's ecosystem. I used to have Mac Desktops, Macbooks, iPads and of course their phones. Unparalleled build quality but I just couldn't bridge the gap between iOS and OSX. Loved being mobile with the iPad but I always needed OSX for some heavy lifting. It's so liberating carrying a thin and light 10" Windows tablet with "everything" you own then shoving that same device into a dock for a true desktop experience.

    I am so looking forward to see how Continuum moves forward. Perhaps one day I'll just be down to a single device.
    My story is much like yours. Loved the iPads (owned iPad 1/2/3, iPad Mini 2). Tried to search for many apps which were "supposed" to be productive, but none were up to any standard of productivity. I once owned a MacBook Air. But I found it so stupid to carry three things (phone + tablet + MacBook).

    I then realized that iPad was just a lie (at least to people like me who need to do productive tasks). It can never be productive and Apple just doesn't want iPad to be productive (If iPad was a productive device, people would stop buying Macbooks....)

    And then I further realized, the whole Apple business is just to make so many products, each serving a single purpose. If you want to do all things, you have to buy all their devices. This is stupid. And I didn't want to be so stupid.
    04-30-2015 08:04 AM
  2. HeyCori's Avatar
    I was under the assumption that today MS will detail the hardware requirements for Continuum, however, they are not announcing a new phone.

    From the demo it looked like some sort of micro-HDMI cable. Though I guess it could of been a USB 3.0 cable.
    04-30-2015 08:25 AM
  3. Indistinguishable's Avatar
    I don't understand the question. How am I to know what MS intends to present?
    Well you're saying that we misunderstood Joe's statement that we'd hear more about hardware & Continuum today. I'm asking: If we misunderstood, then what was Joe saying would happen on Thursday (today)?
    920Walker likes this.
    04-30-2015 08:26 AM
  4. TechFreak1's Avatar

    6) Even though they made a huge splash...they really do need to learn how to hype a key note.......Over an hour of Code based stuff and then huge release after release......They almost lost the attention of the crowd and viewers with an hour long sleeping pill. They need to learn something called rise and fall..... Excite the crowd.....then dull it up a bit....Excite the crowd....then a dull bit.

    Any thoughts????
    I totally can relate to that, I was literally drifting in and out of asleep. Then again was working late shift last night so that didn't help :P.

    But yeah, I was totally dreading that they would go down the emulation route for Android. Not going to lie I was pretty anxious when Terry Myerson started talking about "current code". So when he said "4 new ways to leverage their existing code & skills", I could hardly contain myself. So much so, me and a cousin had bet that the 4th was definitely Objective-C support. Now he owes me 100 or a phone (which ever is greater in value) .

    As it stands devs not have much excuses not to support Windows Phone, as why wouldn't you?
    If you can leverage your Objective-C code and with minimal effort support a whole new audience and reap the benefits.

    The only excuses that remain will be just personal preference.

    Things are finally looking up, I cant wait for the second keynote to begin as Joe Belfiore mentioned before the continuum demo on phones [At 2:23:25 - first key note] "I should point that we need new hardware for this, I don't have that hardware working today. In fact we are going to try a demo of that at a session on Thursday".
    04-30-2015 08:36 AM
  5. Indistinguishable's Avatar
    I was under the assumption that today MS will detail the hardware requirements for Continuum, however, they are not announcing a new phone.

    From the demo it looked like some sort of micro-HDMI cable. Though I guess it could of been a USB 3.0 cable.
    That makes a bit more sense. Looking forward to hearing more about it either way.

    The demo did look like a cable. But in the video that Belfiore posted, it seems to be wireless.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=48&v=-oi1B9fjVs4
    04-30-2015 08:58 AM
  6. stephen_az's Avatar
    So there are some things to take away from Build today.....

    1) Yes Microsoft wants it's services on iOS and Android, as you can't wipe them from the face of the earth, so best to hook new consumers where they live. Hook them on the services, so later they look at the hardware that has the software.

    2) Yes the apps on other OS looked better and has added features that our Windows Phones didn't get..........however that WILL change, and from what was shown today it only gets better from here !!!!!

    3) Microsoft has removed any and all blocks and issues Dev's had that stopped them from bringing apps to Windows 10.

    4) Microsoft has really really slapped Apple in the face with their One platform many devices/Universal App mind set. A direct shot at Apple and iOS/Mac 2 OS way of doing things.

    5) Microsoft is dead serious about it's Mobile Platform !!!! They have planted their feet firm to say they are here to stay.

    6) Even though they made a huge splash...they really do need to learn how to hype a key note.......Over an hour of Code based stuff and then huge release after release......They almost lost the attention of the crowd and viewers with an hour long sleeping pill. They need to learn something called rise and fall..... Excite the crowd.....then dull it up a bit....Excite the crowd....then a dull bit.

    Any thoughts????

    I know I am excited most about Mouse and Keyboard with my Phone.....my Phone can be my Mobile PC....The Tablet interface for my Acer W3 with Windows 10.....Hololens just became something I may invest in after the demo today !!!! Just 1 thing would make my day now....a Microsoft Watch to pair with my Phone!!!!!!!
    I am not going to be obnoxious and repost my own long response in another thread but it is here if interested: http://forums.windowscentral.com/win...ml#post3079463. Long and short of it is this is simply a bit of euphoria among the platform advocates with no lasting effect. It addresses absolutely nothing with regard to developers for other platforms since it fails to address the actual reality - low user base equals no developer interest. This is a chicken and egg scenario. You need the apps to attract the users but the developers won't bring the apps without the user base to justify. Nothing vis a vis Android and ios developers yesterday actually encourages a developer to port their apps. It only makes it easier for them to do something they already decided they are not doing, or support a platform they already dumped. The major apps that have left Windows Phone in the past few months did not do so because it was difficult to develop a native app. They left because the market share did not justify continued investment. I am sorry but anything short of a no effort solution (an emulator or direct access option) for the disinterested developer community will not solve the problem.
    Phone Guy 4567 likes this.
    04-30-2015 09:19 AM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    Well you're saying that we misunderstood Joe's statement that we'd hear more about hardware & Continuum today. I'm asking: If we misunderstood, then what was Joe saying would happen on Thursday (today)?
    My reply was to spencer and I told him he misunderstood what was being simulated (not the UI, but hardware). Has zilch to do with what you took from it.
    Guess you misunderstood that too 😉
    04-30-2015 09:23 AM
  8. Indistinguishable's Avatar
    My reply was to spencer and I told him he misunderstood what was being simulated (not the UI, but hardware). Has zilch to do with what you took from it.
    Guess you misunderstood that too
    Ah - Just a miscommunication then.
    04-30-2015 09:31 AM
  9. Spectrum90's Avatar
    I am not going to be obnoxious and repost my own long response in another thread but it is here if interested: http://forums.windowscentral.com/win...ml#post3079463. Long and short of it is this is simply a bit of euphoria among the platform advocates with no lasting effect. It addresses absolutely nothing with regard to developers for other platforms since it fails to address the actual reality - low user base equals no developer interest. This is a chicken and egg scenario. You need the apps to attract the users but the developers won't bring the apps without the user base to justify. Nothing vis a vis Android and ios developers yesterday actually encourages a developer to port their apps. It only makes it easier for them to do something they already decided they are not doing, or support a platform they already dumped. The major apps that have left Windows Phone in the past few months did not do so because it was difficult to develop a native app. They left because the market share did not justify continued investment. I am sorry but anything short of a no effort solution (an emulator or direct access option) for the disinterested developer community will not solve the problem.

    Absolutely, If Microsoft doesn't provide the environment that the app requires to run without bugs and performance problems, then the strategy fails. If Microsoft transfers to the developers the work to make the app run well on Windows, the strategy fails. The technical solution has to be as transparent as possible.

    Eventually, if the developers have success with their apps on Windows they could go an extra mille and use Windows specific APIs to improve the user experience.
    04-30-2015 09:58 AM
  10. ShaneRay's Avatar
    I was relieved when they let us in on their plans for Android/iOS developers. This is so much better than the emulation route many of us feared. And I think they're doing the best thing they could possibly do. And I'm even a little excited about it.

    However, as others have already pointed out, these tools are going to need to be dead simple and insanely quick for the developers or else it all falls down. Even with that there is no guarantee this will entice developers to get their app on the platform.

    So, it's a wait and see game.

    But, as I said, of all the things Microsoft could do, I think they did the right thing.
    04-30-2015 10:26 AM
  11. xsikal's Avatar
    Is anyone actually liveblogging keynote #2? I haven't seen anything, even on windows sites like this one.
    04-30-2015 11:04 AM
  12. Spectrum90's Avatar
    I was relieved when they let us in on their plans for Android/iOS developers. This is so much better than the emulation route many of us feared. And I think they're doing the best thing they could possibly do. And I'm even a little excited about it.
    In the case of Android, I think it's exactly what was expected. Android apps running untouched on Windows, with the exact same UI and behavior. Additional APIs are provided to access platform specific features, optionally.
    If the app has to be compiled or the apk can be submitted without changes is not clear and is irrelevant. Java is compiled to bytecode which is platform agnostic. As a second step It has be compiled to machine code in the device, or ahead of time. So, any implementation of Android apps require a compiler and the runtime environement, there is nothing new in what they announced.

    The support for iOS was a surprise, but Microsoft only showed a game. I'm not so sure they will implement the whole iOS API surface, specially the UI. It could like Xamarin, Objective-C with bindings for WinRT.
    Last edited by Spectrum90; 04-30-2015 at 11:47 AM.
    04-30-2015 11:23 AM
  13. Nogitsune Micah's Avatar
    I hope hardware announced later this year blows me away because I am not impressed with Windows 10 for phones/android stuff.

    I am impressed by Windows 10 for desktop though.
    04-30-2015 11:38 AM
  14. Kodiak12's Avatar
    From the demo it looked like some sort of micro-HDMI cable. Though I guess it could of been a USB 3.0 cable.
    The new phones shouldn't need any kind of cable as is shown in Joe's demo vid:



    This makes me wonder what's on that monitor to make things work wirelessly. Especially if I end up at a hotel room somewhere with a circa 2007 HDMI flat screen. My miracast dongle at home slightly sucks with some lag and that's with a 30/mbps connection. I'd much rather my phone got put into a physical dock with a wired HDMI port like my tablet does now.
    Laura Knotek and HeyCori like this.
    04-30-2015 12:26 PM
  15. RumoredNow's Avatar
    3) Microsoft has removed any and all blocks and issues Dev's had that stopped them from bringing apps to Windows 10.
    Not quite.

    Don't discount prejudicial mindset. For Example: SnapChat very likely won't touch the porting tool. They passed when 6snap was offered to them free and clear as a ready-made App they could take over... I'm just saying that no matter how attractive and easy it is to pick up an extra market some won't no matter what, just out of spite

    Also, don't forget that for certain Apps they have ongoing costs that have to be exceeded to make it worthwhile to offer the App. Remember Weather Flow? Weather Flow app removed from Windows Phone Store [Update] | Windows Central

    If an App just has to connect to a Google service in order to function, expect the workarounds to be more of a PITA than a developer thinks it is worth. I would imagine Google would block that type of access pretty quickly when it starts cropping up.
    Laura Knotek, a5cent and Ed Boland like this.
    04-30-2015 12:43 PM
  16. Phone Guy 4567's Avatar
    I am not going to be obnoxious and repost my own long response in another thread but it is here if interested: http://forums.windowscentral.com/win...ml#post3079463. Long and short of it is this is simply a bit of euphoria among the platform advocates with no lasting effect. It addresses absolutely nothing with regard to developers for other platforms since it fails to address the actual reality - low user base equals no developer interest. This is a chicken and egg scenario. You need the apps to attract the users but the developers won't bring the apps without the user base to justify. Nothing vis a vis Android and ios developers yesterday actually encourages a developer to port their apps. It only makes it easier for them to do something they already decided they are not doing, or support a platform they already dumped. The major apps that have left Windows Phone in the past few months did not do so because it was difficult to develop a native app. They left because the market share did not justify continued investment. I am sorry but anything short of a no effort solution (an emulator or direct access option) for the disinterested developer community will not solve the problem.

    Yup every time something new is announced it is the thing that will save the platform according to the faithful, but then the faith dissipates quickly. WP7 was supposed to be the answer to Windows Mobile failing fortunes, 7.5 was supposed to fix WP7 & 8 was a reset that was supposed to attract devs with the ability to reuse at least some of their existing code. Windows 10 is supposed to have even tighter code integration between the different versions, but clearly MS doesn't believe this will spur developers to create more Modern apps so they now want them to recompile iOS and Android apps. These apps will probably look exactly like iOS and Android apps which will be jarring to long time WP users and alienate the already dwindling core of faithful even more.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-30-2015 12:44 PM
  17. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    The new phones shouldn't need any kind of cable as is shown in Joe's demo vid:

    ...

    This makes me wonder what's on that monitor to make things work wirelessly. Especially if I end up at a hotel room somewhere with a circa 2007 HDMI flat screen. My miracast dongle at home slightly sucks with some lag and that's with a 30/mbps connection. I'd much rather my phone got put into a physical dock with a wired HDMI port like my tablet does now.
    Just an FYI, Miracast does not go through your Internet/local network connection. It uses Wifi Direct (a subset of the Wifi protocol) to connect directly from the device to the Miracast adapter. Your home vs. hotel room network speeds will not affect the wireless display performance at all. Also, I'm not sure which Miracast adapter you are using, but I have a Netgear PTV3000 and the lag is almost non-existent.

    Anyway, I suspect that Continuum will work with either Miracast or a wired connection via HDMI or DisplayPort over USB-C. However, I think it's very telling that Joe B. kept saying "on new phones" and "future Qualcomm hardware" in that video you posted. I'm guessing that Continuum on current gen phones may have some limitations due to the need for specific hardware.
    Kodiak12 likes this.
    04-30-2015 01:03 PM
  18. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    ... Long and short of it is this is simply a bit of euphoria among the platform advocates with no lasting effect. It addresses absolutely nothing with regard to developers for other platforms since it fails to address the actual reality - low user base equals no developer interest. This is a chicken and egg scenario. You need the apps to attract the users but the developers won't bring the apps without the user base to justify. Nothing vis a vis Android and ios developers yesterday actually encourages a developer to port their apps. It only makes it easier for them to do something they already decided they are not doing, or support a platform they already dumped. ...
    You have a point in regards to Windows Phone only. However, these tools can produce universal apps which target all Windows 10 devices including desktops, laptops, tablets, phones, IoT, and Xbox One. When you add up all the customers running those types of Windows devices the situation is very different. Now you are talking about a single platform/ecosystem that is among the most commonly used in the world. If a developer can spend a few days using mostly automated tools to convert their existing code and target that many new customers they would be pretty foolish to ignore that.
    HeyCori and prasath1234 like this.
    04-30-2015 01:11 PM
  19. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    That's just it, there aren't going to be emulators. iOS and Android apps can be recompiled to run natively as WP apps.
    There are voices in the dev community that say it isn't that easy. We'll see. And of course there are those who will not port to MS regardless of how easy or how many users there are.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-30-2015 01:36 PM
  20. Legoboyii's Avatar
    There are voices in the dev community that say it isn't that easy. We'll see. And of course there are those who will not port to MS regardless of how easy or how many users there are.
    *cough* SnapChat *cough*
    04-30-2015 05:57 PM
  21. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    There are voices in the dev community that say it isn't that easy. We'll see. And of course there are those who will not port to MS regardless of how easy or how many users there are.
    The dev community (which I am part of) hasn't seen anything beyond what has been shown at build so far. Of course it's not going to be a single button click and it depends on the application, but it very well might be possible to crank out a respectable product within several hours of work. Even if it takes a couple of weeks for some complex apps, that is a small investment if it allows you to reach the entire Windows ecosystem.
    a5cent and prasath1234 like this.
    04-30-2015 06:08 PM
  22. rhapdog's Avatar
    If an App just has to connect to a Google service in order to function, expect the workarounds to be more of a PITA than a developer thinks it is worth. I would imagine Google would block that type of access pretty quickly when it starts cropping up.
    My understanding was that the new tool would automatically redirect all Google services to Microsoft services. That means it wouldn't be a matter of Google being able to clock that type of access, as they won't even be part of it any longer.

    Hmm.... does that mean if someone ports Google Maps, it will show maps from Bing? LOL (Yeah, I know it would have to be Google to port it, and they won't. It's a joke for crying out loud.)
    04-30-2015 06:55 PM
  23. HeyCori's Avatar
    There's a lot of singular focus on the Android issue but that's only a small part of a bigger picture. Microsoft isn't just trying to port Android apps, they're trying to become the de facto platform for developing programs across any and all devices. For example, at 1:49:00 Myerson discusses how developers can bring their Win32 and .net applications to the Windows Store. All thanks to the new development tools and Universal app platform. That's huge for any developer with a desktop program that they didn't want to reprogram their application from scratch just to have it available on the Windows Store.

    Microsoft doesn't just want more apps, they want to remove the barrier to development. Example, here's a video explaining a little bit about Project Astoria. Microsoft wants developers to do as little as possible to get their apps from one platform to another. Even going so far as to analyze what the dev needs to change and how to change it. That's a huge workload and a major barrier to remove!

    And then there's the second part of the strategy, expanding the Windows 10 user base. How will Microsoft do that rapidly? By giving away Windows 10 for free to all Windows 7 and 8 users. Even if only a fraction of that total user base upgrades, that's still very significant market share.

    Microsoft wants devs to have this mindset, that all they need to reach millions of new customers is to spend a few hours/days coding and not weeks/months trying to build something from scratch.
    05-01-2015 09:58 AM
  24. ShinraCorp's Avatar
    Alright for those who are interested in knowing what some are talking about, head to channel9 and watch the Day 1 Keynote, at 2:23:28, Joe says that he'll show a demo of Continuum at a session on Thursday. Since he was running a simulation during the Day 1 Keynote.

    EDIT: So I looked at the Continuum panel and apparently Continuum can run via Miracast with either a Wireless dock or a Wireless Dongle, however the Wired Dock situation might require special hardware which is what Joe might of meant.
    Last edited by ShinraCorp; 05-01-2015 at 01:21 PM.
    HeyCori likes this.
    05-01-2015 12:57 PM
  25. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Alright for those who are interested in knowing what some are talking about, head to channel9 and watch the Day 1 Keynote, at 2:23:28, Joe says that he'll show a demo of Continuum at a session on Thursday. Since he was running a simulation during the Day 1 Keynote.

    EDIT: So I looked at the Continuum panel and apparently Continuum can run via Miracast with either a Wireless dock or a Wireless Dongle, however the Wired Dock situation might require special hardware which is what Joe might of meant.
    I think the hardware he's referring is the multi-display support in the Qualcomm SOCs.
    05-01-2015 02:00 PM
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