05-07-2015 09:42 AM
72 123
tools
  1. ShaneRay's Avatar
    To Jmshub and Spectrum...

    Before this really turns into an argument, both of you are right.

    I've just spent the past 45 mins or so reading various sources. And there is conflicting information for all of them. Even Paul Thurrott has two articles (post-keynote) in which one states emulation and the other does not. In one article he basically states that clarification is needed.

    I was under the impression that emulation wasn't involved with android, but after researching this morning, I'm unsure.

    So, again, it's clear to me now that there's confusion out there among those who witnessed the presentation and MS needs to clear some things up.
    jmshub and Laura Knotek like this.
    05-01-2015 09:49 AM
  2. tgp's Avatar
    Regardless, Microsoft has more weight to throw around and therefore more leeway. Secondly the way they got it all working is safer for the platform as a whole and keeps Windows secured.
    True, but will it work?
    05-01-2015 09:52 AM
  3. Legoboyii's Avatar
    To Jmshub and Spectrum...

    Before this really turns into an argument, both of you are right.

    I've just spent the past 45 mins or so reading various sources. And there is conflicting information for all of them. Even Paul Thurrott has two articles (post-keynote) in which one states emulation and the other does not. In one article he basically states that clarification is needed.

    I was under the impression that emulation wasn't involved with android, but after researching this morning, I'm unsure.

    So, again, it's clear to me now that there's confusion out there among those who witnessed the presentation and MS needs to clear some things up.
    There's no emulation as the apps are running natively on the os. Emulation is like using BlueStacks on a PC and what Blackberry did to run Android apps, an emulator.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-01-2015 10:00 AM
  4. ShaneRay's Avatar
    There's no emulation as the apps are running natively on the os. Emulation is like using BlueStacks on a PC and what Blackberry did to run Android apps, an emulator.
    Here's a quote from one of Thurrott's articles after the keynote ( LINK )

    For Android developers. Via “Project Astoria,” Windows users will be able to run Android apps on Windows 10 phones, devices and PCs alongside Windows apps. These apps will use an-on device emulator that will be included with Windows 10, but as with iOS apps, they will need to be modified slightly by the developer.
    As I said, some sources say emulation (some directly so; others indirectly as an emulation "layer") on both desktop and mobile. Still, others report no emulation. My point is...there's confusion out there right now. So, while I did agree with your statement yesterday, I'm just not so sure today.

    Definitely conflicting info out there at the moment.
    jmshub likes this.
    05-01-2015 10:07 AM
  5. Spectrum90's Avatar
    It seems we disagree in the meaning of the word "emulator".

    Wikipedia:
    "In computing, an emulator is hardware or software that enables one computer system (called the host) to behave like another computer system (called the guest). An emulator typically enables the host system to run software or use peripheral devices designed for the guest system.

    Emulation refers to the ability of a computer program in an electronic device to emulate (imitate) another program or device. Many printers, for example, are designed to emulate Hewlett-Packard LaserJet printers because so much software is written for HP printers. If a non-HP printer emulates an HP printer, any software written for a real HP printer will also run in the non-HP printer emulation and produce equivalent printing.
    That's exactly what Microsoft and BlackBerry are doing. Emulating Android, its runtime environment, its libraries, the services that the operating system provide to the app, to make Android apps run in WP and BB10.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-01-2015 10:17 AM
  6. jmshub's Avatar
    As I said, some sources say emulation (some directly so; others indirectly as an emulation "layer") on both desktop and mobile. Still, others report no emulation. My point is...there's confusion out there right now. So, while I did agree with your statement yesterday, I'm just not so sure today.

    Definitely conflicting info out there at the moment.
    I agree. The more I look into it, there are conflicting reports. The article here on WC suggests that it's not just on-device emulation: Microsoft going all out courting iOS and Android developers for Windows 10 | Windows Central . I think the end result is that Microsoft is hoping to allow developers to get their feet wet with Microsoft SDK at their own pace, with the hope of eventually writing full Windows apps.
    05-01-2015 10:24 AM
  7. Legoboyii's Avatar
    It seems we disagree in the meaning of the word "emulator".

    Wikipedia:


    That's exactly what Microsoft and BlackBerry are doing. Emulating Android, its runtime environment, its libraries, the services that the operating system provide to the app, to make Android apps run in WP and BB10.
    To me an emulator is basically like virtualbox and bluestacks. Converting apps into windows apps with visual studio and necessary coding is different than directly installing and running an app without changing anything (which is emulating). At least in my perspective.
    05-01-2015 10:26 AM
  8. c0wb0ycliche's Avatar
    Regardless of whatever emulation is/isn't going on (what was that about a subsystem in the keynote?) my takeaway was that devs will be able to take iOS and Android apps, drop them in VS, and easily produce something they can publish in the Windows store. End users will be completely oblivious to this process (e.g. Candy Crush.)

    I'm not as concerned with the process. It seems a good solution - better than a separate app store like Amazon or sideloading.

    I'm just not convinced devs will do it.
    05-01-2015 11:25 AM
  9. ShaneRay's Avatar
    This Microsoft video at the bottom of this page shows (at least from MS's point of view) the simplicity they are going for.

    http://www.winbeta.org/news/project-...pps-windows-10

    And, perhaps, the level of emulation (If any) going on isn't important?

    Throw in a quote I came across in an article from Mary Jane Foley:

    "Some people might call this emulation," said Operating Systems Group President Terry Myerson, in an interview at Build. "But it's really about subsystems (although) there are aspects of emulation in here."


    Time will tell.
    05-01-2015 11:31 AM
  10. Spectrum90's Avatar
    If It's called emulation or something else doesn't matter. The point is that this is no necessarily going to solve the app problem, and on the contrary it could make it worse. This was a desperate measure to save Windows mobile, time will tell if it works.

    Android/iOS apps could have bugs, performance problems, take more time to start, or part of the app might not work.
    Native development could be abandoned.
    WP could become a patchwork non cohesive Android, iOS, WP7/8 and W10 apps, each with different problems.
    Even if the process is as simple as pushing a button, some developers won't adopt this solution and will continue ignoring Windows.
    People could question why to buy a WP instead of an iPhone or an Android phone if apps run better there.
    Microsoft loses control of its platform and has to follow the changes that iOS and Android introduce.

    I've been asking for Android apps for months, so I'm happy with this, but I'm not sure if It's going to work. It depends on how well the "alien" apps run and the amount of work needed to make them run well.
    Last edited by Spectrum90; 05-01-2015 at 12:15 PM.
    KhawarNadeem likes this.
    05-01-2015 11:54 AM
  11. ShaneRay's Avatar
    I agree.

    They had no choice and they are doing the right thing. And, perhaps, the only remaining thing that they could do.

    We'll just need to wait for the next 1-2 years, I think, to judge the outcome.
    05-01-2015 12:00 PM
  12. tgp's Avatar
    I hope they refine the app conversion process before release! Both demos failed. The converted iOS app ran fine, but it produced the wrong answer for the simple math problem. The converted Android app wouldn't find its location, and then it totally crashed on the backup device.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-01-2015 12:11 PM
  13. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    There is one thing missed in all of this......Microsoft is not leveraging only it's mobile phone division on this. Now the developer has the option to release for Phone/Tablet and PC.
    This means access to more then just the Phone Market.
    The bigger question is will the Developer see this?? As right now with both iOS and Android a Dev has twice the work to make a Phone app then go back and recode for tablet.......in many cases they put forth a Phone only app.

    What I have taken away from this is One app can break out across the Windows Family of devices in a more natural way.

    Will it work still needs to be answered, as we have to wait for Windows 10 to drop it's release and an app hit the Store and open on a Phone a Tablet and a PC.

    Just looking at how well The Windows Phone looked as a desktop in it's demo....I think Microsoft has something to offer Dev's in terms of devices and numbers.

    If just 1 or 2 notice this and put out an app and it catches....that will be the start of the move. Remember the power of a River can change rock...but a river starts with just a single rain drop.
    05-01-2015 01:47 PM
  14. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    I hope they refine the app conversion process before release! Both demos failed. The converted iOS app ran fine, but it produced the wrong answer for the simple math problem. The converted Android app wouldn't find its location, and then it totally crashed on the backup device.
    The software world is littered with things that glitches or crashes in demo......Apple Maps.....iTunes on a Moto...Windows 98 with USB, however a demo should never be taken as gospel no matter how smooth or buggy it goes.
    I am sure Microsoft will iron out the bugs before they release.
    tgp and Laura Knotek like this.
    05-01-2015 01:58 PM
  15. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    The software world is littered with things that glitches or crashes in demo......Apple Maps.....iTunes on a Moto...Windows 98 with USB, however a demo should never be taken as gospel no matter how smooth or buggy it goes.
    I am sure Microsoft will iron out the bugs before they release.


    Sent from my Nexus 7 (2013) using Tapatalk
    Guytronic and James8561 like this.
    05-01-2015 02:33 PM
  16. TechFreak1's Avatar
    Can people stop calling it Windows 10 Mobile... reading the article, will update this post.
    05-01-2015 03:58 PM
  17. sinime's Avatar
    With some apps the maintenance required may be as simple as just re-porting the new updates IOS app. I haven't done a port or seen it in action, but it's assume many apps will port directly with little to no work... Where you probably run into issues is when API calls are required that don't have a corresponding Windows API... Like a widget on Android... There is probably no direct way of magically porting a widget to a live tile... So the dev would have to remove the widget parts and code the live tile or leave it as a static tile... They will probably also have to redo the tile icons for the port.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-01-2015 04:09 PM
  18. Jazmac's Avatar
    Yet another death march post.
    Andrew Gordon likes this.
    05-01-2015 05:50 PM
  19. Cleavitt76's Avatar
    The reason why Windows desktop platform is so successful is due to the fact that Microsoft CREATED and lead a revolution by creating products such as WINDOWS and Office. It worked to make their products work from the little man to the big corporations. Not by simply copying what their competitors are doing and taking their apps lol. Microsoft was a LEADER and that is why they had the success they had and still rely on today.
    You might not be old enough or close enough to the industry to know the actual history, but your examples are not accurate.

    WordPerfect and Lotus Notes were the de facto standard long before MS Office. And Windows had competition from Apple and giants at the time like IBM's OS2. MS beat their competitors in a few ways...

    1) MS absolutely did "copy" their competitors leading products. There is nothing wrong with that. It's called competition and all of these companies do it.
    2) MS made an OS that could be used by normal people to get things done with computers. However, Apple and IBM were offering similar products to consumers.
    3) MS provided third party developers with the best tools and APIs to make software development for Windows and Office easy.

    Since MS was actually the new guy in office software and Windows had similar competition, it's the ease of development for their platform and availability of third party software that ended up being the deciding factor for the success of Windows and Office. MS has always excelled at providing the best development tools. These tools are just another way to assist developers in making their software available on the MS ecosystem.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-01-2015 06:08 PM
  20. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    I think this is the beginning as even Microsoft understands(and has publically acknowledged various times) that mobility is the future. Not having your own platform in mobile space means your services will be treated as second hand citizens on say for example Google's android, where google will push its own alternatives like google docs, maps, hangouts etc. So you see having a mobile platform is important for the survival of Microsoft's core services that's why they went to such lengths to unify the core of their operating systems. And we all know app gap is only there because of some big name and or most used services and local apps(banking, airline etc. for US market) but even then some are coming onboard as the time goes by. Previously they could either target 3% of WP share or 15% of PC share that too through investing resources on Silverlight and RT separately. Now they can target all device types by only investing in Universal Windows Platform and that too has been made easy for them by bridging tools which will support Apple's native language Objective C and Android's C++/Java. (Microsoft's native language is C#.) Also, incorporating Win32 and Web apps into Universal Windows Platform shows that this is the platform to go from now on even for legacy computing development so yes, developers will adopt Universal Windows Platform. Now I don't know when will that happen or how soon but it will happen. Now the question remains if the services and apps/games that are important and/or most used in mobile space will come soon enough to help the mobile segment grow? I would like to hope so but I'm not that optimistic because to me the issue is more political than lack of resources. All these companies probably detest Microsoft for its decades of monopoly and now are having a payback. Microsoft needs to do what it does best. And that is: signing partnerships with more and more hardware OEMs. The best use case of this android bridge will be with OEMs. Samsung and other OEMs will now be easily able to port their proprietary bloatware that was written for android to windows phones now. And may very well be eager to launch Windows based handsets because they too don't want to see Google's monopoly(times change) in their heart and therein may lie Microsoft's biggest chance of survival in mobile space.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-01-2015 06:29 PM
  21. c0wb0ycliche's Avatar
    This sort of shows, at a high level, how easy the porting is.

    05-01-2015 07:19 PM
  22. CSJr1's Avatar
    I think I was the biggest detractor when I first starting hearing the rumors. I thought it would be just like blackberry; sideloading and pure emulation.

    It is not. The final code is compile as a Windows app in the Windows store. No side loading or alternate stores needed. There may be some subsystem going on, but why would a user care about this if they get Windows 10 services?

    This opens the door into the Windows ecosystem and I as a Windows user dont see anything wrong with that.
    05-01-2015 08:09 PM
  23. realwarder's Avatar
    I hope they refine the app conversion process before release! Both demos failed. The converted iOS app ran fine, but it produced the wrong answer for the simple math problem. The converted Android app wouldn't find its location, and then it totally crashed on the backup device.
    I think the iOS wrong answer was someone having a joke. There is no way a tool would convert so much of an app correctly - graphics, 10's of thousands of lines of code to make everything work and then fail on something as simple one tiny bit of math. The simplest part of the conversion. Very unlikely. Someone was having a little laugh at that point.
    05-01-2015 08:13 PM
  24. realwarder's Avatar
    Something to note from this write up is the author (OP) says publishing to the Kindle fire store is one click. For pure AOSP apps, sure, but most apps like SnapChat use Google Services which both Amazon and Microsoft do not support. Instead they both have their own classes which you use to provide an alternative for things like messaging, maps and in app purchases. In some ways it would not surprise me if those Android apps in the Kindle Fire store are the first to appear in the Windows store, as those developers have no issue in tweaking their app to maximize exposure.
    05-01-2015 08:20 PM
  25. c0wb0ycliche's Avatar
    Something to note from this write up is the author (OP) says publishing to the Kindle fire store is one click. For pure AOSP apps, sure, but most apps like SnapChat use Google Services which both Amazon and Microsoft do not support. Instead they both have their own classes which you use to provide an alternative for things like messaging, maps and in app purchases. In some ways it would not surprise me if those Android apps in the Kindle Fire store are the first to appear in the Windows store, as those developers have no issue in tweaking their app to maximize exposure.
    I agree wholeheartedly. But my concern is also exactly this - what DON'T you find in the Fire store? Snapchat, Instagram, Periscope, Meerkat, Google apps. etc.
    05-01-2015 09:36 PM
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