05-07-2015 09:42 AM
72 123
tools
  1. Jazmac's Avatar
    I agree wholeheartedly. But my concern is also exactly this - what DON'T you find in the Fire store? Snapchat, Instagram, Periscope, Meerkat, Google apps. etc.
    We put too much value in BS like snapchat. That single app should not be elevated to the level of what makes or breaks THIS platform. Kids make lot of noise an we should NOT allow kids whining ways to weight heavier than what adults do with Windows Phone. I am personally sick of it.
    05-01-2015 10:34 PM
  2. KhawarNadeem's Avatar
    Stockholm syndrome is what you are describing. I don't have it and I'm not blindly supportive either. One thing I have noticed is that nearly all of the people criticizing this approach have little or no understanding of software development. If the MS solution had been an emulation layer for iOS or Android I would not have been supportive at all. However, tools to help developers covert their existing code to native code is a whole different beast. I would be supportive of those tools even if WP had 99% market share. There is nothing wrong with providing good tools to developers. It is a big reason why the Windows desktop platform is so successful.
    I want to frame your comments and hang them on my wall.
    *slow clapping*
    Cleavitt76 likes this.
    05-02-2015 02:39 AM
  3. realwarder's Avatar
    I agree wholeheartedly. But my concern is also exactly this - what DON'T you find in the Fire store? Snapchat, Instagram, Periscope, Meerkat, Google apps. etc.
    It would seem unusual that this is the case. There are quite a lot of Amazon devices too. It would not surprise me if Google has lunch with these people and they get special placement for staying on Google devices only... Conspiracy theory, yes, but then we are talking about the tech companies that colluded to not offer jobs preventing staff changing jobs between them. Silicon valley is a small place.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-02-2015 07:38 AM
  4. fantakk's Avatar
    Guys. We didn't consider a thing that is happening in the Android world right now. Basically, many phones company like Samsung (or for instance, Cyanogenmod) want to be indipendent from Google Services and from the Google Store, they want to limit the control that Google has on Android and its close code.
    This will be crucial.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-02-2015 09:59 AM
  5. c0wb0ycliche's Avatar
    We put too much value in BS like snapchat. That single app should not be elevated to the level of what makes or breaks THIS platform. Kids make lot of noise an we should NOT allow kids whining ways to weight heavier than what adults do with Windows Phone. I am personally sick of it.
    It would seem unusual that this is the case. There are quite a lot of Amazon devices too. It would not surprise me if Google has lunch with these people and they get special placement for staying on Google devices only... Conspiracy theory, yes, but then we are talking about the tech companies that colluded to not offer jobs preventing staff changing jobs between them. Silicon valley is a small place.
    It isn't about what Snapchat or any other app specifically does, or how useful or not useful it is, its about what is on the platform. People use Snapchat and Instagram and so on, but also (like they pointed out on Windows Weekly yesterday) they use weird specific apps that are important to them (like a parking or public transportation app they use every day.)

    These apps aren't in the Amazon store. They aren't on Blackberry. They can't be sideloaded on non-Play devices.

    My concern is that if the developers didn't feel like taking the time to port them to Amazon (which while no one on earth bought the phone, the tablets sell like crazy) and make whatever Google service specific changes were required to make that work, why would they do it for Windows?

    I'm even more concerned after some of the things said on WW yesterday. Not sure if its true, but they said that only phones/small tablets will be have the subsystem to run Android apps. iOS apps will run across all Windows 10 devices.

    If that is the case - the argument that devs will do this because they can bring the device to all Windows devices- phone, tablet, PC, Xbox, HoloLens - doesn't stand. And that worries me.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-02-2015 10:37 AM
  6. b0blight's Avatar
    Well, I was expecting a flame war within here, but the threads so far have been very civilized with everyone discussing things with proper reasoning and respect of each other, something that is rarely seen here nowadays ! But on another hand, let me give my two cents on this issue. As a guy who just started to learn programming around a year ago (together with app development), this is some interesting technology here. I have learned to code using C#, Java and C++ (the last I just started not too long ago). In school, we are encouraged to develop for the Android platform, as that is the one having more userbase. Myself, I would want to develop for Windows, but I am equally excited to develop for Android. You see, for beginners like me, having some tool like this is quite cool, as I am to develop for multiple platform (Android, WP/Windows) with one language, and this allows for me to have a feel of what different platform feels like, without having to rewrite my entire program just for one specific platform. This saves time, while allowing us to gain more experience from different platforms. Big companies wise, I have no idea. Yes, some may like it, some may not. But this is early days, so I would really wait for when the thing come out before making any assumption. As for those who decry this approach or strongly oppose it, I think many of them have not done software development before, as bug-checking/testing takes up a whole lot of time, together with writing the program in the first place. But hey, I don't know. This is just my two cents worth on this topic, and this is coming from someone who just started to learn software development, so I may be very wrong in my thinking.
    05-02-2015 12:37 PM
  7. Jazmac's Avatar
    "My concern is that if the developers didn't feel like taking the time to port them to Amazon (which while no one on earth bought the phone, the tablets sell like crazy) and make whatever Google service specific changes were required to make that work, why would they do it for Windows?"

    Not a concern for me. Amazon has tons of android apps on their platform, some of which we don't have here and I suspect those will be the first to arrive here. Bottom line to all of these unknowns is what services Microsoft will deliver to the platform. It looks from my vantage point its going to be huge. Its still not all about Microsoft "greasing the skids" for other platform developers anyway. That is just one bullet in the chamber. If it gets a good number of developers on board, those who only want to get their app in front of as many eyes as possible, its a win. Not all will come. Snapchat being one of them. I pushed to get it here because so many kids here think they need to have it. I don't care personally since it has no place in my lifestyle nor does it add anything measurable. Its an impressionable kids toy like beaney babies and cabbage patch dolls.

    I'll say again, quit filtering everything you think about though google. If they got you feeling a bit fearful just hang up your Lumia, submit and go get an android device. We won't talk too bad about you. Its going to get a lot more messy before the dust clears.

    I can't believe I'm still visiting this thread. :)
    05-02-2015 01:39 PM
  8. Spectrum90's Avatar
    It isn't about what Snapchat or any other app specifically does, or how useful or not useful it is, its about what is on the platform. People use Snapchat and Instagram and so on, but also (like they pointed out on Windows Weekly yesterday) they use weird specific apps that are important to them (like a parking or public transportation app they use every day.)

    These apps aren't in the Amazon store. They aren't on Blackberry. They can't be sideloaded on non-Play devices.

    My concern is that if the developers didn't feel like taking the time to port them to Amazon (which while no one on earth bought the phone, the tablets sell like crazy) and make whatever Google service specific changes were required to make that work, why would they do it for Windows?

    I'm even more concerned after some of the things said on WW yesterday. Not sure if its true, but they said that only phones/small tablets will be have the subsystem to run Android apps. iOS apps will run across all Windows 10 devices.

    If that is the case - the argument that devs will do this because they can bring the device to all Windows devices- phone, tablet, PC, Xbox, HoloLens - doesn't stand. And that worries me.
    Android apps run only on Windows Mobile (ARM). iOS apps run everywhere.

    Instagram is in the Amazon store.
    http://www.amazon.com/Instagram/dp/B...pUvbUpU3081619

    I think the Windows store is more attractive for developers than the Amazon store because the installed base of WPs is bigger and people spend more time on phones, install more apps on phones.
    prasath1234 and colinkiama like this.
    05-02-2015 02:06 PM
  9. colinkiama's Avatar
    Android apps run only on Windows Mobile (ARM). iOS apps run everywhere.

    Instagram is in the Amazon store.
    http://www.amazon.com/Instagram/dp/B...pUvbUpU3081638

    I think the Windows store is more attractive for developers than the Amazon store because the installed base of WPs is bigger and people spend more time on phones, install more apps on phones.
    If instagram is on the amazon store, why wouldn't it be on the windows store?
    05-02-2015 02:30 PM
  10. seb_r's Avatar
    For me it is, according to the title of this thread, the end. See also my post here: http://forums.windowscentral.com/win...0-anymore.html
    With the way they decide to go and the ongoing delays in everything or painfully slow rollout of updates etc. I am disappointed. MS has to catch up a LOT and does not progress fast enough. Trying to be different (compared to competitors) is actually a good thing and might open new markets but being different ,in this scenario, is in a negative way. Windows 10 for desktop is a different thing, I'm only talking about mobile devices.
    To be honest I also wonder about the majority of users here clap their hands and blindly support and embrace everything MS does. Either cos of being pretty ignorant ("it does everything a smartphone needs to do for ME") or seeing things though fanboy-glasses all the time and not allow any criticism about their "baby".
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-02-2015 06:59 PM
  11. colinkiama's Avatar
    For me it is, according to the title of this thread, the end. See also my post here: http://forums.windowscentral.com/win...0-anymore.html
    With the way they decide to go and the ongoing delays in everything or painfully slow rollout of updates etc. I am disappointed. MS has to catch up a LOT and does not progress fast enough. Trying to be different (compared to competitors) is actually a good thing and might open new markets but being different ,in this scenario, is in a negative way. Windows 10 for desktop is a different thing, I'm only talking about mobile devices.
    To be honest I also wonder about the majority of users here clap their hands and blindly support and embrace everything MS does. Either cos of being pretty ignorant ("it does everything a smartphone needs to do for ME") or seeing things though fanboy-glasses all the time and not allow any criticism about their "baby".
    Ughhh maybe Microsoft has been behind for a long time but with windows 10 it seems like they have caught up or even succeeded android and ios (in some areas), I just hope the third party developers are on board.

    I am annoyed that there is a slight delay for windows 10 mobile but Microsoft needs to make a perfect first impression. They take as much time as they can in optimising the OS (I just hope they finish by the end of the year)
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-03-2015 08:34 AM
  12. seb_r's Avatar
    Well the developers is not always the one to blame. If you wanna earn money with apps and not have any extra resources for "experimental" projects like a WP app you stick to the major mobile platforms Android and iOS. Also pretty often there are limitations set by the OS itself and you cannot blame the developers: missing API's, lack of real multitasking and the awkward way of pushing notifications are just a few I also mentioned in my post linked above.
    Those who willing to take a risk can also be successfull. For example Brother that supplies as the only manufacturer of printers and scanners a (free) WP app making it the first choice if you consider buying a new printer as WP owner.
    Ughhh maybe Microsoft has been behind for a long time but with windows 10 it seems like they have caught up or even succeeded android and ios (in some areas), I just hope the third party developers are on board.

    I am annoyed that there is a slight delay for windows 10 mobile but Microsoft needs to make a perfect first impression. They take as much time as they can in optimising the OS (I just hope they finish by the end of the year)
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-03-2015 01:16 PM
  13. prasath1234's Avatar
    For me it is, according to the title of this thread, the end. See also my post here: http://forums.windowscentral.com/win...0-anymore.html
    With the way they decide to go and the ongoing delays in everything or painfully slow rollout of updates etc. I am disappointed. MS has to catch up a LOT and does not progress fast enough. Trying to be different (compared to competitors) is actually a good thing and might open new markets but being different ,in this scenario, is in a negative way. Windows 10 for desktop is a different thing, I'm only talking about mobile devices.
    To be honest I also wonder about the majority of users here clap their hands and blindly support and embrace everything MS does. Either cos of being pretty ignorant ("it does everything a smartphone needs to do for ME") or seeing things though fanboy-glasses all the time and not allow any criticism about their "baby".
    Ya I agree you
    05-03-2015 02:26 PM
  14. colinkiama's Avatar
    Well the developers is not always the one to blame. If you wanna earn money with apps and not have any extra resources for "experimental" projects like a WP app you stick to the major mobile platforms Android and iOS. Also pretty often there are limitations set by the OS itself and you cannot blame the developers: missing API's, lack of real multitasking and the awkward way of pushing notifications are just a few I also mentioned in my post linked above.
    Those who willing to take a risk can also be successful. For example Brother that supplies as the only manufacturer of printers and scanners a (free) WP app making it the first choice if you consider buying a new printer as WP owner.
    Firstly, the problem with the lack of real multitasking is almost gone. Almost. On the tech preview, I had 15 winRT apps in the task switcher and they resumed instantly. Maybe the apps aren't that complex but you can see that they are listening (after all these years)

    And the problem with printers is going to be fixed too, with the new Universal APIs. The printer API supports thousands of manufacturers and is native to the os. But you are right about the push notifications, they can be really strange at times but for now its working fine for me. And then the device issues, the 930 & 1520 was Nokia's fault, the 535 was microsoft's first phone but the 640 seems to be fine. You act as if no company but Microsoft has had manufacturing faults. There is being a fanboy and them there's be supportive about the platform of your choice. I know that Android kills WP in terms of features and APIs, but I chose to stay on this platform anyway, if you are going to be such a downer, get an android or something and be grateful about software updates, some devices never even get one. Can't we just get excited about an update for once.
    05-03-2015 09:30 PM
  15. vEEP pEEP's Avatar
    I think it will turn out alright.

    MS is bigger than BB. China is coming out with their own phones. Nokia mobile died.

    Things are going to change.

    Seriously, if WP ceased to exist, would you stop using a mobile?

    MS will have a presence on any platform.

    Mr. V
    prasath1234, colinkiama and Jazmac like this.
    05-03-2015 10:20 PM
  16. Legoboyii's Avatar
    I think it will turn out alright.

    MS is bigger than BB. China is coming out with their own phones. Nokia mobile died.

    Things are going to change.

    Seriously, if WP ceased to exist, would you stop using a mobile?

    MS will have a presence on any platform.

    Mr. V
    I'd just use a cheap flip phone if I couldn't get windows on my phone. But I get the drift. :P
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-03-2015 10:47 PM
  17. byobg's Avatar
    But surely the "too difficult/too much time" problem is one of the roots of the "I don't care" problem, isn't it? I mean, sure, there are some who might just be downright hostile to the platform, or hate rectangles, or whatever - but generally, the "I don't care" problem is probably often more like "it's not worth the time/effort I'd have to spend to get a small number of customers."

    Microsoft can't do much more to address the "small number of customers" side of that equation than they're already doing - so reducing the time/effort side is really the right play to make. I hope it works.
    05-05-2015 11:25 AM
  18. Christopher Kendalls's Avatar
    I actually want Microsoft to do this. I don't care about the future of the platform. I care about my needs right now. I didn't buy a Windows Phone because I thought that the market share would grow. I bought it because I knew that I had a solid piece of hardware and a good ecosystem if no one else released a single app and Microsoft discontinued the product.

    I wasn't getting that reassurance with Android. This is the situation we're in now; Microsoft releases web apps when an official solution doesn't exist. What they're proposing would be a better implementation of those services than web apps, but still short of an official app. Developers may do this, they may not.

    Microsoft may have to take the route Blackberry did, in order to give consumers the solutions they need. That isn't the end of the world. Microsoft also has resources that Blackberry does not, so this shouldn't be the final nail in the coffin. The worst that would happen, is that WP market share does not grow. A few tinkerers like myself will continue to use it for the interoperability, sophistication, and modern nature of the platform. Android and IOS have a 2003 aesthetic. Look like you're running Windows XP on a smartphone. I'll pass.

    Microsoft will release or implement several new technologies with Windows 10. None of which appear to be on the horizon for Android or IOS. That counts for something. If you want to follow the crowd, use Android and IOS. But if you want the future of computing use Windows.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-05-2015 12:04 PM
  19. Christopher Kendalls's Avatar
    Stockholm syndrome is what you are describing. I don't have it and I'm not blindly supportive either. One thing I have noticed is that nearly all of the people criticizing this approach have little or no understanding of software development. If the MS solution had been an emulation layer for iOS or Android I would not have been supportive at all. However, tools to help developers covert their existing code to native code is a whole different beast. I would be supportive of those tools even if WP had 99% market share. There is nothing wrong with providing good tools to developers. It is a big reason why the Windows desktop platform is so successful.
    Thank you. That is also the reason this failed on Blackberry, which is something that no one ever wants to talk about. Plus it was AOSP and not Google Play Store. Not officially anyway. Why no one ever makes this distinction is something I still don't understand. There is a difference between runtime and what Microsoft is proposing.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-05-2015 12:23 PM
  20. Christopher Kendalls's Avatar
    The problem with the article, and with a lot of these threads is provincialism. People think it is an us against them situation. That actually describes computing in the eighties, and is a major reason why the majority of those companies failed.

    Every single computer ran a different OS, or a different implementation of the same OS. It wasn't until Microsoft simplified things with Windows that the framework for the era we're in now was made possible. Apple decided to go with Unix, which is where they're at now. This was with OS X. Before then, Apple was struggling with System.

    Fast forward 20 years and we're in a similar situation in mobile. Apple and Google are using OS based off of Unix, at their core. Microsoft is now the odd man out, but that's really just karma from all of those years of tying in IE with Windows, introducing Active Desktop prematurely, giving us UAE and a number of other sins.

    But unless they want the mobile division to suffer the same fate of some eighties tech corporation they're going to have to play well with others. People honestly think that Microsoft can just market harder, or get developers on board, or give away free stuff, or do any number of things that flies in the face of lessons history has taught us. So Android and IOS software runs on Windows Phone. So what. Before Apple reinvented themselves, they were allowing users to boot into Windows through Boot Camp. Smh.
    Last edited by Christopher Kendalls; 05-07-2015 at 09:25 AM.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-05-2015 12:46 PM
  21. syspry's Avatar
    Thank you. That is also the reason this failed on Blackberry, which is something that no one ever wants to talk about. Plus it was AOSP and not Google Play Store. Not officially anyway. Why no one ever makes this distinction is something I still don't understand. There is a difference between runtime and what Microsoft is proposing.
    That runtime on BB10 was a massive failure and pretty much killed native development on BB's app store. If that wasn't bad enough on its own, Android devs were dropping android runtime apps in BB Appworld in a fire-and-forget fashion and then never returned to maintain them. The sad part of all this is that BB10 was actually very good for its time when it came out, I would even go so far as to say it was easily as good as iOS and Android back then. The problem is that Google has always moved at a damn fast pace for putting new capabilities into Android, and Apple was on the verge of doing a major overhaul of iOS, leaving BB10 falling behind again a mere few months after it went live.

    3rd party android devs made it even worse for BB10. As an experiment back then I hunted down a few apps that mimicked BB's "swipe gesture UI" and hub feature and was able to pretty much approximate all of the unique features promoted for BB10 on an android phone. Even now, a new app called Kustom Live Wallpaper is turning quite a few heads with the crazy UI setups you can make with it
    05-07-2015 08:04 AM
  22. Christopher Kendalls's Avatar
    That runtime on BB10 was a massive failure and pretty much killed native development on BB's app store. If that wasn't bad enough on its own, Android devs were dropping android runtime apps in BB Appworld in a fire-and-forget fashion and then never returned to maintain them. The sad part of all this is that BB10 was actually very good for its time when it came out, I would even go so far as to say it was easily as good as iOS and Android back then. The problem is that Google has always moved at a damn fast pace for putting new capabilities into Android, and Apple was on the verge of doing a major overhaul of iOS, leaving BB10 falling behind again a mere few months after it went live.

    3rd party android devs made it even worse for BB10. As an experiment back then I hunted down a few apps that mimicked BB's "swipe gesture UI" and hub feature and was able to pretty much approximate all of the unique features promoted for BB10 on an android phone. Even now, a new app called Kustom Live Wallpaper is turning quite a few heads with the crazy UI setups you can make with it
    I'm really not sure why BB can't turn it around, outside of turning around the obvious mistakes they made with runtime.

    A co-worker of mine has a BB 10. But he doesn't use the Android apps. He actually wants a Surface 3. I thought I could interest him in WP, but no luck.

    BB used to have a tablet to sell him.

    If that company, whose consumers demand high quality goods, doesn't get it together they will eventually lose them as phone customers. But they only have themselves to blame.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-07-2015 09:42 AM
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