07-23-2015 02:39 PM
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  1. Charles Brown8's Avatar
    Frankly Microsoft has very little to lose.

    Build a world phone - go ahead and put Verizon's CDMA bands in it. Sell online, in the stores, Amazon, WalMart, wherever. Manage updates (firmware & OS). Market the hell out of it, promoting the Windows 10 single platform benefits. Create your own momentum.

    They're not getting where they want to be doing what they're doing now. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. . .
    Right on. I'd jump on one.
    07-09-2015 02:44 PM
  2. Dr_8820's Avatar
    Not a bad idea at all. My TP2 with Sprint was a world phone, not sure why Microsoft didn't offer more of that.

    Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    07-09-2015 02:47 PM
  3. PepperdotNet's Avatar
    Frankly Microsoft has very little to lose.

    Build a world phone - go ahead and put Verizon's CDMA bands in it. Sell online, in the stores, Amazon, WalMart, wherever. Manage updates (firmware & OS). Market the hell out of it, promoting the Windows 10 single platform benefits. Create your own momentum.

    They're not getting where they want to be doing what they're doing now. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. . .
    Agreed. The only thing keeping me from buying an unlocked international 640XL right now is... waiting on the new one that supports Continuum and hoping it too contains "all the LTE bands" like the RM-1096 does.
    RumoredNow likes this.
    07-09-2015 03:03 PM
  4. RumoredNow's Avatar
    To help echo what the last few posts have said and drive the point home...

    I like the sentiment of the thread. Microsoft eventually "going it alone" is definitely a romantic idea...
    Yes, it does sound romantic. But pragmatism drives it. What has following the carriers demands in the US gotten for Windows Phone? Precious little exposure and a paltry market share. The rest of the world (or most of it) cringe at the thought of a US style carrier power structure coming to their economy. It's a joke and an embarrassment and it has got to die. Sooner rather than later.
    mark233, HeyCori, a5cent and 3 others like this.
    07-09-2015 04:06 PM
  5. mark233's Avatar
    This is a most fascinating thread.
    RumoredNow likes this.
    07-09-2015 04:14 PM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    I've only got one question:

    RumoredNow for president?
    07-09-2015 04:21 PM
  7. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I'm not defending the carrier mode in any way, shape or form but let's not forget the iPhone was an AT&T exclusive until the Verizon iPhone 4 was released. Great products supported by excellent advertising can survive carrier exclusivity like the aforementioned iPhone, the OG Droid, HTC Evo and others.
    libra89, tgp, Laura Knotek and 3 others like this.
    07-09-2015 07:55 PM
  8. realwarder's Avatar
    The simple fact is they have to involve carriers in the US to sell phones in the US.

    Verizon is obvious - CDMA with approved IDs only activated.

    AT&T/T-Mobile - while any unlocked GSM phone will work, places like Walmart and BestBuy (along with carrier retail stores) will not sell unapproved phones. And Microsoft needs the phones in Walmart where lots of people buy cheap phones, and carrier stores where people buy flagships.

    The US market is locked down. Europe is more open but the US market is important to market acceptance... even if sales figures there are low.
    Laura Knotek and libra89 like this.
    07-09-2015 10:28 PM
  9. Chinocop's Avatar
    Fine, sell the value phones with the carriers and the flagship/enterprise phone unlocked at MSFT stores and Amazon. I don't understand why you can't work with retailers to sell unlocked phones. In any event, MSFT is going to sell the value phones at Wal-Mart and Target anyway because the people who shop there are looking for value. I don't see why MSFT needs carrier stores to sell their prized phones esp. when sales reps will trash talk any MSFT phone.

    Going at it alone is not going to do any more damage to their relationship with carriers in any case. You don't think the dismal sales of previous Windows Phone iterations haven't already soured carriers perception of Microsoft?
    RumoredNow likes this.
    07-10-2015 01:18 AM
  10. EMINENT 1's Avatar
    I like the idea of a multi-band phone, but I still feel as long as contracts exist in the US, people will look for the low cost option for a subsidy so they still need that flagship on all carriers. Maybe with the minimal offerings now they won't have a choice to wreck it with their garbage changes and we can get the same model with all the features as MS intended on all carriers.
    920Walker likes this.
    07-10-2015 02:33 AM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ In which case you're back to high-end phones being carrier exclusive! MS must chose the lesser of two evils.

    We know that going forward, MS will be releasing exactly two flagship phones annually. Anyone suggesting MS can't afford to ignore carrier channels MUST also state which carriers those two devices will go to, and who's customers will be left out in the cold with no high-end devices to chose from at all! That you and others aren't doing so suggests there is still some wishful thinking or denial of reality involved.

    Unfortunately, U.S. carriers will never allow for a free handset market. There are no good options.
    Dr_8820 and RumoredNow like this.
    07-10-2015 04:21 AM
  12. rhapdog's Avatar
    a5cent, there will be two flagship phones in the same way the 640/640xl is two phones, which to some extent is a bit misleading. With those two phones, there are several RM variants for both single and dual SIM, as well as variants to cover different bands. In this way, there can be versions for all carriers.

    This is the way of Microsoft going forward.
    07-10-2015 05:23 AM
  13. paulxxwall's Avatar
    Not enough ms brick and mortar stores. I would have to drive hours to buy a WP? Yeah no! There's 4 att store local to me ....nearest is 5 min away . So a carrier is like way easier for most to pick up maybe a WP but it easier than having to drive 3 hours to an ms store just to buy a phone and no I wont order one online with out physically trying one out
    libra89 likes this.
    07-10-2015 05:50 AM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    a5cent, there will be two flagship phones in the same way the 640/640xl is two phones, which to some extent is a bit misleading. With those two phones, there are several RM variants for both single and dual SIM, as well as variants to cover different bands. In this way, there can be versions for all carriers.
    This is the way of Microsoft going forward.
    That's true almost everywhere else in the world except North America, yes. But that isn't relevant here.

    It seems you're missing the part about carrier exclusivity and why such devices exist in the first place.

    If what you are saying were true, the Icon/930 would not have been exclusive to Verizon, but available on every U.S. carrier, or at least TM and ATT, because variants that technically could have operated on those networks also existed.

    This has pretty much nothing to do with technology or the myriads of slight software/hardware variations between what is essentially the same device, but with business, law, and how much bargaining power OEMs and carriers have over each other.

    If carriers demand you give them your best phone as an exclusive or go home, you have few options.
    I'll admit their is one alternative, namely MS no longer trying to negotiate a relevant subsidy, in which case you'll see on-contract devices going for 299.- with carriers having to make no commitments of their own. That is possibly a reasonable compromise (it's what HTC does), but I'm just not sure U.S. carriers would even say yes to that at this point.
    Last edited by a5cent; 07-10-2015 at 07:50 AM. Reason: formatting only
    RumoredNow and Dr_8820 like this.
    07-10-2015 07:01 AM
  15. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    Yeah, get them out of the carrier stores, at least in the U.S. The sales people speak negatively and ignorantly about WP when I have asked about one, or seen anyone ask about one. Removing them from the stores is a good move but a few things must be done as part of that transition:
    • Advertise, advertise, advertise; be it for the MS website, retailers like Amazon and Best Buy, or the MS stores. It has to be done to keep it in the conscience of those who wouldn't usually even think about a WP.
    • Strengthen the relationship of those retailers that are objective to WP whose salespeople give it a fair shake.


    As easy as it is to bypass carrier stores to buy and activate a phone these days, it is a good move by MS if they do the follow up correctly.
    RumoredNow and Dr_8820 like this.
    07-10-2015 07:13 AM
  16. Alienhead95's Avatar
    Instead of cutting ties with carriers, I think they should fix the problem. Because i dont think people are going to go to the Microsoft store to buy phones, especially when they dont know windows phone exists. Carrier stores is unfortunately the place to sell phones because majority of them buy phones on contract.
    07-10-2015 08:24 AM
  17. HoosierDaddy's Avatar
    Give the Flagship exclusively to one carrier and now not all the others want second best. Why should they? How much money do you think a carrier makes from a 520 or a 640? This is another reason why carriers need to be taken out of the equation. Too many games and too willing to limit your choices as a consumer when it comes to Windows Phone.
    What kind of weirdo are you? You want to be forced to choose a carrier AND choose a phone? Why double the work for us poor consumers? I'm sure it's people like you that contribute to our overly complex automobile/gasoline situation. In a perfect world you would buy your car from your gas station. Sure that car would only run on that brand of gas and you would be severely limited in what cars you could buy, but it would be SOOOOO convenient.
    07-10-2015 09:00 AM
  18. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Microsoft will sell at Best Buy. A lot of people buy from them. I bought my first nokia 520 from best buy. Microsoft stores are popping up everywhere. Every mall here has an MS store.

    If the new phones are indeed great and inspiring then chances are the carriers will come to Microsoft and Microsoft won't have to put up with exclusivity. The reason Microsoft got exclusivity is because they have no say in the mobile world, they either do what the carrier wants or they don't get promoted through the carrier.

    Look at Apple, do you ever see exclusives? I haven't seen any. It's just deals carriers are giving away on their own. And if other oems start flooding the market with phones people will buy them.

    It's a 2 tier approach. Android got popular because of the open nature and because OEMs decided to use it. And Apple got popular because of the High end well designed phones.

    Microsoft is doing both. Free Windows mobile 10 for devices as well as building their own high end devices showcasing the tech.
    RumoredNow likes this.
    07-10-2015 09:04 AM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    Instead of cutting ties with carriers, I think they should fix the problem.
    There is no problem MS can fix. It's exactly the way carriers want it to be. You either play by carrier's rules, or you don't play... or you design a phone that is so popular, that carriers simply can't afford not to have it on offer. Only then can OEMs get out from under their thumbs.
    07-10-2015 09:21 AM
  20. RumoredNow's Avatar
    ...you design a phone that is so popular, that carriers simply can't afford not to have it on offer. Only then can OEMs get out from under their thumbs.

    "Hey (Sprint/Verizon/T-Mobile/AT&T) dude, I hear there is this new phone that like I can plug in and it totally is a computer with a big screen and a full QWERTY and mouse and stuff. I'd be totally stoked to have one of those man."

    "Oh yeah, that Microsoft phone with Continuum. Sorry, fella, we don't have those."

    "Oh my DOG! Why notsies?"

    "We ummm... We told them that they had to make it show our carrier logo for 15 seconds every time it was docked or we would not carry it. Microsoft told us they wouldn't do that. We, uh, have that new Galaxy that is 12.0% thinner than the last one and breaks 27% easier. It's also marginally faster than the last one. If you game real hard you just might see the difference. And look, we got them to shove it full of our (Sprint/Verizon/T-Mobile/AT&T) WasteYourSpaceTM Suite of Useless Apps that have two cool features out of 27 Apps, but you have to pay a monthly premium or overpriced phone contract to get anything useful out of."

    "Chaaaaw, What a bunch of loosers you guys are. I'm gonna go down the road to (Sprint/Verizon/T-Mobile/AT&T). I gotta have that bad boy Continuumation dealy."

    "Well, uh, here's the thing. None of the carriers have it. Nobody could get their deal through to make it all theirs and screw over the vast majority of Americans from ever obtaining one..."

    "LOLz. Thanks anyway (Sprint/Verizon/T-Mobile/AT&T) carrier wretch. It's like the 21st century and stuff. People know how to shop around on the internet and find what they want. The economy is totally all frugal and stuff, so like I totally know everybody is fighting for my dinero. I'll hit the web. I'm sure Best Buy or Walmart or someone has it. I'll see ya in a couple months when I come back in to close out my contract. Didja know they got these mvnos that like totally rip you jagwads a new one when it comes to cutting my costs? Laters, carrier lame-o."
    07-10-2015 10:35 AM
  21. mary beth hale's Avatar
    Thanks for one of the most interesting and thought provoking threads on this site. I know it's a complex issue. On a personal note...no carrier contract for 4 years or ever again.
    07-10-2015 10:51 AM
  22. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    "Hey (Sprint/Verizon/T-Mobile/AT&T) dude, I hear there is this new phone that like I can plug in and it totally is a computer with a big screen and a full QWERTY and mouse and stuff. I'd be totally stoked to have one of those man."

    "Oh yeah, that Microsoft phone with Continuum. Sorry, fella, we don't have those."

    "Oh my DOG! Why notsies?"

    "We ummm... We told them that they had to make it show our carrier logo for 15 seconds every time it was docked or we would not carry it. Microsoft told us they wouldn't do that. We, uh, have that new Galaxy that is 12.0% thinner than the last one and breaks 27% easier. It's also marginally faster than the last one. If you game real hard you just might see the difference. And look, we got them to shove it full of our (Sprint/Verizon/T-Mobile/AT&T) WasteYourSpaceTM Suite of Useless Apps that have two cool features out of 27 Apps, but you have to pay a monthly premium or overpriced phone contract to get anything useful out of."

    "Chaaaaw, What a bunch of loosers you guys are. I'm gonna go down the road to (Sprint/Verizon/T-Mobile/AT&T). I gotta have that bad boy Continuumation dealy."

    "Well, uh, here's the thing. None of the carriers have it. Nobody could get their deal through to make it all theirs and screw over the vast majority of Americans from ever obtaining one..."

    "LOLz. Thanks anyway (Sprint/Verizon/T-Mobile/AT&T) carrier wretch. It's like the 21st century and stuff. People know how to shop around on the internet and find what they want. The economy is totally all frugal and stuff, so like I totally know everybody is fighting for my dinero. I'll hit the web. I'm sure Best Buy or Walmart or someone has it. I'll see ya in a couple months when I come back in to close out my contract. Didja know they got these mvnos that like totally rip you jagwads a new one when it comes to cutting my costs? Laters, carrier lame-o."
    I read this in my best Bill and Ted voice. Most excellent.

    billandted.jpg
    07-10-2015 11:03 AM
  23. worldspy99's Avatar
    Frankly Microsoft has very little to lose.

    Build a world phone - go ahead and put Verizon's CDMA bands in it. Sell online, in the stores, Amazon, WalMart, wherever. Manage updates (firmware & OS). Market the hell out of it, promoting the Windows 10 single platform benefits. Create your own momentum.

    They're not getting where they want to be doing what they're doing now. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. . .
    Nexus works on VZW as well so this is doable but it is a tricky proposition.
    07-10-2015 11:04 AM
  24. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    I looked at the 640 XL variants that have pentaband 3G and over a dozen LTE bands and thought, wow, maybe Msft will go rogue and just sell world phones. That would be fantastic for the platform. All the hoops US carriers have consumers jumping through are OK if you are on Android and there are 16 phones to choose from at the carrier website or if you are Apple and can force your own way in. It killed WP in the US though.

    Look at Icon. Look at 1520 and 830 being exclusive to ATT. It hinders the OS from proliferating.
    But hiding the phones in a minute number of stores helps? I don't want the carrier-exclusive garbage to carry one, no one does. I also don't want to have to drive 90 minutes (the nearest MS Store's conservative driving time) to check out if I like a phone or not, then make a split-second decision or wait to make a second trip to throw $600 at a flagship phone. Regardless of carrier pricing structure, people will still prefer monthly payments they don't really notice to a $600, single-day purchase, when it comes to phones.

    The exclusivity hurt a lot of models. I'd argue the 930/ICON was hurt the most, with the 1020 being another option (the 920 got variants on other carriers, and the 1520 had a /3 model that worked on T-Mobile, at least). After announcing AT&T as the premiere WP8 carrier, not putting out the 920's successor on that carrier did a lot of damage. The 930 (ICON) went to a carrier where many didn't really experience the platform (since the 928 was released 6 months after the 920 and right after the new Android flagships took a dump on it). The U.S. 920 owners who passionately supported WP8 at launch got nothing to upgrade to (beyond a niche 1520 and a pointless 830 ANTOHER 6 months later than it should have been).

    Still, like I said, yanking phones off of nationwide shelves and limiting them to major cities isn't going to solve a darned thing.
    07-10-2015 03:08 PM
  25. mjperry51's Avatar
    But hiding the phones in a minute number of stores helps? I don't want the carrier-exclusive garbage to carry one, no one does. I also don't want to have to drive 90 minutes (the nearest MS Store's conservative driving time) to check out if I like a phone or not, then make a split-second decision or wait to make a second trip to throw $600 at a flagship phone. Regardless of carrier pricing structure, people will still prefer monthly payments they don't really notice to a $600, single-day purchase, when it comes to phones.

    The exclusivity hurt a lot of models. I'd argue the 930/ICON was hurt the most, with the 1020 being another option (the 920 got variants on other carriers, and the 1520 had a /3 model that worked on T-Mobile, at least). After announcing AT&T as the premiere WP8 carrier, not putting out the 920's successor on that carrier did a lot of damage. The 930 (ICON) went to a carrier where many didn't really experience the platform (since the 928 was released 6 months after the 920 and right after the new Android flagships took a dump on it). The U.S. 920 owners who passionately supported WP8 at launch got nothing to upgrade to (beyond a niche 1520 and a pointless 830 ANTOHER 6 months later than it should have been).

    Still, like I said, yanking phones off of nationwide shelves and limiting them to major cities isn't going to solve a darned thing.
    Two words - Wal Mart
    RumoredNow and rhapdog like this.
    07-10-2015 03:13 PM
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