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11-10-2015 07:58 PM
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  1. Kavu2's Avatar
    Today 11/06/2015, Microsoft is STILL selling OneDrive as a way to back up your files.

    From Microsoft's very own webpage....Microsoft.com Windows features page
    backupfiles2onedrive.png

    To quote(my emphasis): "And these apps use OneDrive to back up your information..."
    >Microsoft....if you don't mean "back up", STOP using those words to promote your products !

    And I hope this discussion doesn't regress into a parsing of the meaning of 'back up' ala past Presidential impeachment hearings with the 'true' meaning of 'is'.

    MS, just stop using the words: 'back up'. It's pretty simple. Perhaps use the words: 'Access some(but not all) of your most important files across your range of devices'. That would be a closer representation of the truth at this juncture, because you can't have trust without truth.
    a5cent and 920Walker like this.
    11-06-2015 01:18 PM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    Today 11/06/2015, Microsoft is STILL selling OneDrive as a way to back up your files.
    Well, there is no arguing with that discovery. The notion that we'd "back up" something in order to synchronize it across devices is completely foreign to anybody who went to a computer science class, but there you go. I completely agree with your conclusion, which is that MS really should stop using the word "back up" if that is not what they intend the service to do.

    "Keep ALL your files" certainly does imply backup.
    No, it doesn't imply that at all. I really don't understand why you or any of the other smart people on these forums would think that. I keep all my files on my hard drive. Does that mean they are backed up? No. It doesn't.

    Backup implies archival! It's dead data that just sits there, which is typically compressed, labelled, dated, and has some way of proving its validity and that it wasn't tampered with. A backup service usually also offers some sort of password protection, and usually has specific features for data restoration and the ability to compare backups/snapshots.

    IMHO the fact that OneDrive supports none of the above, or any other single feature that would be typical of a modern backup solution, makes it glaringly obvious that OneDrive is not actually intended to be anything of the sort. Any IT administrator would laugh at the notion of OneDrive being a backup solution, as it provides nothing specific to that task beyond storage space.

    On the other hand, looking at what OneDrive actually can do, I'd say it's quite clear that it is most suited to dealing with live data that you're currently working on and which you'd want to access from different devices. Is it not obvious that OneDrive is actually focused on bringing W10 devices into the mobile age, rather than being a 1980's grade backup solution?

    And again... "keep all your files in OneDrive" is not semantically identical to "use me as a backup service".

    I'm somewhat flabbergasted that this is even controversial. It really shouldn't be.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-06-2015 at 04:57 PM. Reason: spelling
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-06-2015 01:57 PM
  3. Reflexx's Avatar
    Well, there is no arguing with that discovery. The notion that we'd "back up" something in order to synchronize it across devices is completely foreign to anybody who went to a computer science class, but there you go. I completely agree with your conclusion, which is that MS really should stop using the word "back up" if that is not what they intend the service to do.



    No, it doesn't imply that at all. I really don't understand why you or any of the other smart people on these forums would think that. I keep all my files on my hard drive. Does that mean they are backed up? No. It doesn't.

    Backup implies archival! It's dead data that just sits there, which is typically compressed, labelled, dated, and has some way of proving its validity and that it wasn't tampered with. A backup service usually also offers some sort of password protection, and usually has specific features for data restoration and the ability to compare backups/snapshots.

    IMHO the fact that OneDrive supports none of the above, or any other single feature that would be typical of a modern backup solution, makes it glaringly obvious that OneDrive is not actually intended to be anything of the sort. Any IT administrator would laugh at the notion of OneDrive being a backup solution, as it provides nothing specific to that task beyond storage space.

    On the other hand, looking at what OneDrive actually can do, I'd say it's quite clear that it is most suited to dealing with live data that you're currently working on and which you'd want to access from different devices. Is it not obvious that OneDrive is actually focused on bringing W10 devices into the mobile age, rather than being a 1980's grade backup solution?

    And again... "keep all your files in OneDrive" is not semantically identical to "use me as a backup service".

    I'm somewhat flabbergasted that this is even controversial. It really shouldn't be.
    But if MS used the same definition of dead data, then marketing the idea you could back up your files would mean archiving, wouldn't it?

    Their materials specifically state to use OneDrive to back up all your files.

    I personally used OneDrive to "back up" the photos and videos I have on my phones. That's what they wanted, isn't it?
    11-06-2015 07:27 PM
  4. HeyCori's Avatar
    It should be noted that Microsoft's OneDrive blog talks about using OneDrive as backup and changing OneDrive to focus more on productivity.

    The OneDrive Blog

    OneDrive storage plans change in pursuit of productivity and collaboration
    Instead of focusing on extreme backup scenarios, we want to remain focused on delivering high-value productivity and collaboration experiences that benefit the majority of OneDrive users.
    OneDrive has always been designed to be more than basic file storage and backup. These changes are needed to ensure that we can continue to deliver a collaborative, connected, and intelligent service. They will allow us to continue to innovate and make OneDrive the best option for people who want to be productive and do more.
    Laura Knotek and a5cent like this.
    11-06-2015 08:30 PM
  5. a5cent's Avatar
    It should be noted that Microsoft's OneDrive blog talks about using OneDrive as backup and changing OneDrive to focus more on productivity.



    The OneDrive Blog

    Thanks for those quotes.

    The first quote confirms what I'm saying. OneDrive is about collaboration and productivity. Not backup scenarios.

    The second quote confirms the same, by stating that OneDrive was NEVER about backup, as they want to REMAIN focused on collaboration and productivity.

    In the third quote I think the writer was thinking "OneDrive's features are far more sophisticated than anything offered by a typical backup solution", but it could obviously also be interpreted as "we do backup and more". Those two interpretations are somewhat contradictory.

    Overall, I think those quotes are more supportive of my stance. They seem to generally confirm that OneDrive is focused on mobility, access, sharing and collaboration, not backup scenarios.
    Laura Knotek, HeyCori and libra89 like this.
    11-07-2015 01:22 AM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    Their materials specifically state to use OneDrive to back up all your files.
    I understand MS has occasionally mentioned backup in their marketing materials. At the same time, they've explicitly stated that backup scenarios are not what OneDrive is focused on. What are we to make of that? To me it looks like it may just be another example of MS' marketing department not comprehending the engineering department, but I digress.

    No matter how people actually use OneDrive, the fact remains that there is literally nothing about OneDrive that makes it a good backup solution. Nothing.

    Amazon glacier is an example of an online storage solution that is actually suited for backup. That's what an online backup solution looks like. It's nothing at all like OneDrive...

    I personally used OneDrive to "back up" the photos and videos I have on my phones. That's what they wanted, isn't it?
    Yes, that's what they wanted, but I think we agree that is not really a backup (you put "backup" in quotes).

    The name itself "online camera roll", already makes it pretty clear that we're not talking about backup. The features offered are focused on synchronization accross devices, simple data exchange without wires, and possibly some online sharing.

    It would be a backup if your entire photo collection was on your phone and then backed up for safekeeping in the cloud. That's clearly not what the online camera role is about.
    Laura Knotek and HeyCori like this.
    11-07-2015 02:08 AM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    BTW, I just watched Windows Weekly. A bit after the 30 min mark Thurrott takes the position that MS not only never intended OneDrive to be used as a backup solution, but that they don't want it to be used as such and don't want to be in the bulk backup business at all. He suggested that the recent quota changes were in part to discourage the use of OneDrive for "extreme backup" purposes, which is how he himself, being a 365 subscriber with unlimited storage, used it.
    Laura Knotek and libra89 like this.
    11-07-2015 10:01 AM
  8. Reflexx's Avatar
    BTW, I just watched Windows Weekly. A bit after the 30 min mark Thurrott takes the position that MS not only never intended OneDrive to be used as a backup solution, but that they don't want it to be used as such and don't want to be in the bulk backup business at all. He suggested that the recent quota changes were in part to discourage the use of OneDrive for "extreme backup" purposes, which is how he himself, being a 365 subscriber with unlimited storage, used it.
    Then MS was horrible in their marketing, because to a lay person, and apparently to Thurrot initially, the message appeared to be for backup and access.

    Especially for media.
    11-07-2015 10:44 AM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ That's what I think too.

    It looks like MS' marketing never really understood OneDrive, at least nothing beyond the trivial fact that it's online storage. The technical limitations and feature matrix, as opposed to the marketing, have always suggested backup isn't the idea however.

    Thurrott and Foley speculate, similar to myself, that it was the bean counters who ultimately settled the issue, as the trajectory the service was on just wasn't economically viable.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-07-2015 at 01:59 PM. Reason: formatting
    11-07-2015 12:27 PM
  10. Ten Four's Avatar
    Some seem to be arguing that it is all our own fault (the consumer) because we didn't read between the lines and carefully parse Microsoft's advertising and marketing that explicitly told us to store everything in OneDrive so that it would be accessible on all of our devices. Whether or not you consider this backup or just for "collaboration and productivity" they explicitly stated that you would have "unlimited" storage for Office365. It is mind boggling that people are defending this blatant misleading of the public by telling us that we were misreading things all along.
    11-07-2015 04:44 PM
  11. Great deal's Avatar
    I think they really need to get an internal handle on the marketing side. The development teams never shared information which led to many issues under Balmers watch. I know it takes time for large companies to shift, the marketing teams and bean counters need restructuring. Have to tip my hat to Apple as they seem to get it right most of the time.

    Then MS was horrible in their marketing, because to a lay person, and apparently to Thurrot initially, the message appeared to be for backup and access.

    Especially for media.
    a5cent likes this.
    11-07-2015 04:59 PM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    Some seem to be arguing that it is all our own fault (the consumer) because we didn't read between the lines and carefully parse Microsoft's advertising and marketing.
    No. Nobody is arguing that. In hindsight, I do think we were naive (including myself). That doesn't mean consumers are at fault, because MS could/should have maintained the 15GB camera role perk. It's just that there were signs we could have seen if we wanted to. The point is to learn from it and move on.

    Unlimited storage is a separate issue, but here it's obvious that the sales pitch is a lie. It's impossible to offer unlimited storage. The laws of nature forbid it. And yet here we are, with many people again believing they can get unlimited storage for a set price (this time believing amazon).

    Falling for it once was naive. Falling for the same thing again is stupid.

    Ultimately, there are but two choices. We either pay for what we use ($ per GB) or we get a set price with a capped quota. The unlimited offer for a set price is just to reel people in. As soon as a service becomes popular, companies have no choice but to change it.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-08-2015 at 01:42 PM. Reason: formatting
    Great deal, HeyCori and fiveaces01 like this.
    11-08-2015 01:39 AM
  13. Great deal's Avatar
    Exactly, Amazon will change the offer as well, not if more when.
    11-08-2015 04:29 AM
  14. Reflexx's Avatar
    No. Nobody is arguing that. In hindsight, I do think we were naive (including myself). That doesn't mean consumers are at fault, because MS could/should have maintained the 15GB camera role perk. It's just that there were signs we could have seen if we wanted to. The point is to learn from it and move on.

    Unlimited storage is a separate issue, but here it's obvious that the sales pitch is a lie. It's impossible to offer unlimited storage. The laws of nature forbid it. And yet here we are, with many people again believing they can get unlimited storage for a set price (this time believing amazon).

    Falling for it once was naive. Falling for the same thing again is stupid.

    Ultimately, there are but two choices. We either pay for what we use ($ per GB) or we get a set price with a capped quota. The unlimited offer for a set price is just to reel people in. As soon as a service becomes popular, companies have no choice but to change it.
    Even phone carriers were willing to allows the customers to be grandfathered in with their current unlimited plans when there carriers decided to stop offering then.
    You know things are bad when AT&T has you beat in customer service.
    fiveaces01 likes this.
    11-10-2015 02:55 AM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    Even phone carriers were willing to allows the customers to be grandfathered in with their current unlimited plans when there carriers decided to stop offering then.

    You know things are bad when AT&T has you beat in customer service.
    Apples and oranges.

    For carriers, grandfathering in a person with an "unlimited" data plan costs them almost nothing. When the customer isn't using the service no cost is incurred at all.

    For OneDrive, a single user can bind hundreds of dollars worth of storage assets, for as long as the offer is provided, even if that user does nothing at all.

    Beyond both using the term "unlimited", the two services have absolutely nothing in common. If you want to call MS stupid for offering unlimited in the first place, be my guest. That is reasonable criticism. Expecting them to grandfather in the physically impossible is not reasonable however.

    Expecting MS to grandfather in the 15GB online camera roll perk for Lumia users is a different issue entirely. At least that would not be promising the physically impossible.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-10-2015 at 11:17 AM. Reason: formatting
    libra89 likes this.
    11-10-2015 04:29 AM
  16. fiveaces01's Avatar
    How is it that so many have missed where all signs pointed about the direction MS would be headed when they named Satya Nadella as the new man in charge of MS. He was running the Cloud division prior to his promotion. We have seen this type of "loss leader" promotion throughout our lives as consumers. I told everyone that I knew to be careful about how much they relied on this promotional One Drive storage since it became available. The new head of MS used to run the cloud division...does it not stand to reason that he would concentrate first on that which he knew the most about. They have been pushing for music and all Office stuff to be stored in the cloud free...for a while. Most of the people that I know who use smartphones have no concept of what the Cloud is and want no part of storing anything there. It may be great for business, but Mr. Nadella has made a huge error if he believes that storage will drive revenue the way his shareholders expect
    11-10-2015 10:26 AM
  17. elindalyne's Avatar
    They announced OneDrive would be losing unlimited storage last year... No one paid any attention to it.
    11-10-2015 11:10 AM
  18. Reflexx's Avatar
    Apples and oranges.

    For carriers, grandfathering in a person with an "unlimited" data plan costs them almost nothing. When the customer isn't using the service no cost is incurred at all.

    For OneDrive, a single user can bind hundreds of dollars worth of storage assets, for as long as the offer is provided, even if that user does nothing at all.

    Beyond both using the term "unlimited", the two services have absolutely nothing in common. If you want to call MS stupid for offering unlimited in the first place, be my guest. That is reasonable criticism. Expecting them to grandfather in the physically impossible is not reasonable however.

    Expecting MS to grandfather in the 15GB online camera roll perk for Lumia users is a different issue entirely. At least that would not be promising the physically impossible.
    That's pretty much what I was referring to.
    11-10-2015 02:17 PM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    That's pretty much what I was referring to.

    Ah okay, in the post I replied to you seemed to be talking about the unlimited offer.

    Okay then. Looks like we're on the same page.
    11-10-2015 02:52 PM
  20. Reflexx's Avatar
    Ah okay, in the post I replied to you seemed to be talking about the unlimited offer.

    Okay then. Looks like we're on the same page.
    YYeah. I can understand why "unlimited" can't continue. Though I do think it was pretty bad of them to blame it on abuse.
    11-10-2015 06:35 PM
  21. TechFreak1's Avatar
    Where on that screenshot does it say anything about being intended as a backup mechanism?

    Everything I've heard from MS suggests OneDrive really isn't supposed to be used as a backup system. It's meant to synchrone small files across devices. That's definitely not what a backup system does.
    I think, what really is key here is the perception :) so when you tell someone they have unlimited storage and can have all their files in one place.

    What do you anticipate will happen?

    Invariably it will become used as a mass back up solution lol.

    Personally the removal of the 100, 200 Gig tiers (and to replace these with just a 50 Gig tier) along with the camera bonuses is what irks me the most as it impacts every single Windows Phone user.

    I can understand why they did what they did however the way they went about it is just beyond any sort of rationale.

    The abusers could have easily reprimanded since the TOS is there reprimand users for questionable content not penalize their entire user base.

    They could have gone through a thoughtful approach:

    1) They could have easily grandfathered the accounts using 1TB+ (as after all they have paid for an unlimited service).

    2) locked down the offending accounts if the TOS was breached.

    3) made new accounts going forward have only 5 Gigs (change coming into affect on dd/mm/yyyy etc).

    4) offered the 50 Gig plans alongside other tiers.

    5) kept the camera roll bonus, are they and their partners going to reword all adverts that showcase this bonus?

    As otherwise it is going to be classed as miss selling and false advertising which is a criminal offence for which they will be heavily penalised for.

    6) add 1TB increment add-ons so people have the option of adding more storage.

    7) reduce new 365 accounts to 1TB after a cut off date.

    The whole unlimited business was just fool hardy to begin with as it was an impossible task, us techies know there is no such thing as unlimited storage space when it comes to data. If they didn't roll out this "unlimited" service, no one would have batted an eye lid.

    Perhaps some people envision the cloud in the literal sense , that it's just there floating above absorbing all the data like a sponge - even then a sponge needs a good rinse out now and then lol.
    a5cent, Reflexx and HeyCori like this.
    11-10-2015 07:58 PM
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