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  1. Joe920's Avatar
    Oh I almost forgot this is "The Sky is Falling Central"
    Is that domain still available? It would serve a need. :D
    12-04-2015 03:46 PM
  2. PepperdotNet's Avatar
    I just converted one of my apps from Windows 8.1 and WP8.1 to Windows 10 Universal and submitted it to the store. Took just about as much time and effort as it did to come here and post this.

    Yeah, failing.
    elindalyne and cndspec like this.
    12-04-2015 04:03 PM
  3. paulxxwall's Avatar
    Ballmer is not right. Universal apps platform is not going to flop. It's just starting. What about project Astoria , islandwood , westminster , centennial ???????
    I don't know ? What about them? Where they at?
    MikeSo likes this.
    12-04-2015 04:36 PM
  4. MikeSo's Avatar
    The problem is not that each user needs every app. It is that each user needs 1 or 2 apps that aren't available. My 2 are different than someone else's. That then accumulates over millions of users. If you are a windows phone fan you spend your time finding work arounds. If you really don't care all that much about what operating system you have, then your work around is another phone.
    Yeah, I don't understand why so many people don't understand this. If someone sold a car that worked on 80% of roads, that would be fine for those that really loved that car or those few that drove only on roads where the car worked anyway. But for those that happened to want to drive on those other 20% it would be a non starter. No amount of "but you can just drive another way around" would convince them to choose that car when all the other cars can drive on 100% of the roads.
    cracgor likes this.
    12-04-2015 05:15 PM
  5. jhoff80's Avatar
    I just converted one of my apps from Windows 8.1 and WP8.1 to Windows 10 Universal and submitted it to the store. Took just about as much time and effort as it did to come here and post this.

    Yeah, failing.
    Context is important. Yeah, you did that and it's great, but that doesn't actually do anything for the lack of apps on Windows. The problem that Universal apps need to solve as pointed out by Ballmer and others is getting missing apps that people need onto the platform.

    Like I said earlier, if we saw something like Snapchat (not even important for me personally, but it's a huge symbol), Starbucks, Google apps, etc... then I'd say that wow, the Universal app strategy to get apps on phone might have a chance. Right now, all we're seeing is apps like yours - developers who are already developing on Windows putting out W10 Universal apps. Again, great, but how does that fix any of W10M's problems?
    cracgor likes this.
    12-04-2015 05:30 PM
  6. Nabkawe5's Avatar
    Um..

    Starbucks installs on an iPad right? That makes sense, doesn't? But it won't make sense on my Surface pro 4? Or any other touch screen and/or laptop with a detachable screen?

    It's only "failing" because Apple has not done it yet.

    P.S windows 10 mobile is not out as yet so you would not see apps for them... and before you say it. Windows 8/8.1 and Windows 10 universal apps are totally different.
    Sure they were totally different in the sense that they were preached years ago :D
    12-04-2015 06:47 PM
  7. 7a2eer's Avatar
    Now you are a developer, does it make more sense to work on this, out figure out how to just make an android app and an IOS app and ship the desktop app? Not being negative, but the phone they are going to the store with is not a windows phone. So maybe if it syncs to the cloud and then to the iPhone or whatever they might develop a windows app. And maybe they make it universal, but there is little incentive to go from PC to phone.
    I'm am not sure I understood you. I apologize in advance if I did not address your question. The idea is to promote coding for Windows first, iOS/Android second. By coding for several different platforms developers will naturally focus less on the least significant one. Its hard to maintain parity between all these platforms as they differ significantly. Especially when you are one person.
    If you have to choose between making three apps or supporting three platforms which would you choose? If the concern is money then the former is the most sensibleBut if a Windows -> iOS/Android bridge existed, one could write three apps and they would be supported on three platforms!

    Writing that out though, windows should just force developers to make all apps universal. My understanding now is that it is optional.
    Kinda sorta. Basic, well written apps for W10 or W10M will work with little modification to the interface. i.e calculator app

    I guess it is easier for the companies to just write an app for a popular phone, and the consumer can just make the list on his phone. Or if the phone had an app, the refrigerator may even tell the phone to put ketchup on the list.
    It is easier, but these apps are executive decisions. Microsoft really should get their phones into the hands of CEOs!
    12-04-2015 07:44 PM
  8. cracgor's Avatar
    I'm am not sure I understood you. I apologize in advance if I did not address your question. The idea is to promote coding for Windows first, iOS/Android second. By coding for several different platforms developers will naturally focus less on the least significant one. Its hard to maintain parity between all these platforms as they differ significantly. Especially when you are one person.
    If you have to choose between making three apps or supporting three platforms which would you choose? If the concern is money then the former is the most sensibleBut if a Windows -> iOS/Android bridge existed, one could write three apps and they would be supported on three platforms!


    Kinda sorta. Basic, well written apps for W10 or W10M will work with little modification to the interface. i.e calculator app


    It is easier, but these apps are executive decisions. Microsoft really should get their phones into the hands of CEOs!
    It's a bad place to be. Any effort is considered too much by most developers and even when Microsoft or a3rd party wants to do the work for free, major developers say no thanks. Maybe they want control, maybe they have a distaste for Microsoft. I think the universal app idea is a great one. I don't think it has a good chance to save mobile and I don't know that it makes sense for a lot of developers. Like each device may have a better implementation available. Another example of this, is RuntasticPro. I run with this on my phone. Even an app on a watch would not be the same as a phone. And it would make no sense to have GPS built into the app on my surface. That us why I thought it was failed
    12-04-2015 08:01 PM
  9. elindalyne's Avatar
    One thing to note is the VS 2015 Update 1 just shipped.. It *should* make it quite a bit easier for devs to make cross platform apps targetting Android, IOS and Windows.

    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn771552.aspx
    12-04-2015 08:03 PM
  10. cracgor's Avatar
    One thing to note is the VS 2015 Update 1 just shipped.. It *should* make it quite a bit easier for devs to make cross platform apps targetting Android, IOS and Windows.

    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn771552.aspx
    I will hope. It's just hard to keep the faith in the current market reality.
    12-05-2015 07:03 AM
  11. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    It's a bad place to be. Any effort is considered too much by most developers and even when Microsoft or a3rd party wants to do the work for free, major developers say no thanks. Maybe they want control, maybe they have a distaste for Microsoft. I think the universal app idea is a great one. I don't think it has a good chance to save mobile and I don't know that it makes sense for a lot of developers. Like each device may have a better implementation available. Another example of this, is RuntasticPro. I run with this on my phone. Even an app on a watch would not be the same as a phone. And it would make no sense to have GPS built into the app on my surface. That us why I thought it was failed
    I think its the devs insatiable desire for Microsoft to fall that drives it. Like some devs, I have a feeling Microsoft could say "Here's $10 billion, make an app for Windows Phone, or failing that, we can make it for you" and the companies would be like "Ha no, we'll never release for your platform even if you hit 100% marketshare, we want you to DIE!". Extremist yes, but there are plenty people like that. For example within the people I know, Microsoft is seen as a relic that needs to die off FAST. Even no work with a huge pre-release payout to port it to Microsoft phones is considered too much work.
    12-05-2015 09:49 AM
  12. anon(9707071)'s Avatar
    i really believe that universal apps are MS's last chance ! devs were really not interested in making something for phones...then port it to tablets, then to pc or vice versa. now they can just make one app...for ALL.

    so what is it is better on phablets than pc ? who cares...! the whole point of universal apps...is to get dev's on board....after that, consumers will come
    MikeSo likes this.
    12-05-2015 10:11 AM
  13. Dewg's Avatar
    Any effort is considered too much by most developers and even when Microsoft or a3rd party wants to do the work for free, major developers say no thanks.
    That's the one that kills me. When MS offers to write the app themselves, they're turned down in many cases. The big one I can recall is YouTube, where Google actively battled against MS and threatened to sue if they didn't pull their version of the app. It was over ad revenue, but something tells me even if MS got the ads working correctly, Google would have still pulled it.

    3rd party developers have written great Snapchat alternatives (best being 6snap), but were kicked out by Snapchat when they pulled support for all 3rd-party APIs after a data breach. Since then they've refused to work with MS or anyone on a Windows app. Users and MS are putting pressure on them, and hopefully things will change soon with universal apps. But we're at their mercy.
    12-05-2015 01:17 PM
  14. Bobvfr's Avatar
    Yet we have this:

    Saavn Music & Radio comes to Windows 10 Mobile as a universal app | Windows Central

    Can't say I have heard of the app/desktop program before on PC, but now it's a universal bringing an app to WM that we hadn't seen before. I am sure there will be many more.
    MikeSo likes this.
    12-05-2015 01:28 PM
  15. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    That's the one that kills me. When MS offers to write the app themselves, they're turned down in many cases. The big one I can recall is YouTube, where Google actively battled against MS and threatened to sue if they didn't pull their version of the app. It was over ad revenue, but something tells me even if MS got the ads working correctly, Google would have still pulled it.
    That's because of the Google/Microsoft feud. Microsoft needs to make nice with Google as they're doing with Apple.


    3rd party developers have written great Snapchat alternatives (best being 6snap), but were kicked out by Snapchat when they pulled support for all 3rd-party APIs after a data breach. Since then they've refused to work with MS or anyone on a Windows app. Users and MS are putting pressure on them, and hopefully things will change soon with universal apps. But we're at their mercy.
    Microsoft's road toward attracting those developers will be a long and hard one. Those developers (or some like them) have been burned by MS before... sometimes more than once.

    In order for Microsoft to maximize the possibility of success for the Windows Mobile platform (via universal apps or not) they need to take an "old" page from Apple's playbook. Apple produced hardware and in order to sell it, they initially had to produce the software to run on it. They had to make the total package a compelling one. iWork, iLife, etc. were all apps that enabled Macs to be fully functional for a majority of "average" users.

    THAT is the answer to the "what came first the chicken or the egg" dilemma of software for a platform. Developers won't invest time to develop for a platform that has few customers, but customers won't buy into a platform that doesn't have the software.

    Patch things up with Google and develop world-class native client apps that access Google services. Don't rely on Google to do it. They have their own thing going with Android and besides nobody knows the Modern UI paradigm better than MS.
    12-07-2015 12:30 PM
  16. ntice_521's Avatar
    Patch things up with Google and develop world-class native client apps that access Google services. Don't rely on Google to do it. They have their own thing going with Android and besides nobody knows the Modern UI paradigm better than MS.
    Before doing that, they should develop "world class" apps for their own services. Why does Windows Phone have the worst Skype app, for example?
    theefman likes this.
    12-07-2015 04:14 PM
  17. tangledW's Avatar
    "Universal apps are failing"

    You know, those Universal apps for the Windows 10 mobile update that has been out for 2 weeks on 2 phones and on the new Xbox OS for a couple of weeks. Ridiculous.

    Do I think Universal are a magic bullet? Absolutely not, I mean it could be with time & support, but I don't see it happening. However, let's give them time to actually be born before we pronounce their life as a failure
    HeyCori likes this.
    12-07-2015 04:23 PM
  18. b-funny's Avatar
    Universal App are the biggest news of the last few months!
    12-26-2015 04:51 PM
  19. tgp's Avatar
    With a billion devices - any developer ignoring universal apps at that point would not be very bright.
    What's a billion? More than one billion Android devices will sell in 2015 alone (probably already did, but Q4 2015 isn't yet reported).
    theefman likes this.
    12-26-2015 07:15 PM
  20. rhapdog's Avatar
    What's a billion? More than one billion Android devices will sell in 2015 alone (probably already did, but Q4 2015 isn't yet reported).
    Well, no one said that developers would ignore Android to develop for the UWP. As long as Android holds a decent market share, and they are far from losing it at this point, a developer would be self-loathing to ignore Android. However, Windows 10 having a billion devices can garner a lot more attention than the paltry market share that is currently held. iOS didn't hit a billion devices sold until 2015, yet had a large enough market share to command a lot of attention. When (yes, I say when, because I believe it will) Windows 10 hits a billion devices, it will garner more attention. It has already started getting the attention, which will only grow.
    tgp likes this.
    12-27-2015 09:44 PM
  21. tgp's Avatar
    Well, no one said that developers would ignore Android to develop for the UWP. As long as Android holds a decent market share, and they are far from losing it at this point, a developer would be self-loathing to ignore Android. However, Windows 10 having a billion devices can garner a lot more attention than the paltry market share that is currently held. iOS didn't hit a billion devices sold until 2015, yet had a large enough market share to command a lot of attention. When (yes, I say when, because I believe it will) Windows 10 hits a billion devices, it will garner more attention. It has already started getting the attention, which will only grow.
    You completely missed my point. What I meant was that 1 billion is not some magical, astronomical number. How significant is 1 billion users? Sure, the number has a lot of zeros, but what does it mean?

    How will the developers respond? Sure, take 1 billion W10M devices, and they'd be all over it. Or take 1 billion devices running W10 desktop, and they might be all over it (for sure if x86 apps would no longer be an option). But divide 1 billion up among desktop (with some of them in tablet form), mobile, xBox, and IoT devices. How do the developers respond then?

    All we can do is wait and see.
    12-28-2015 12:39 AM
  22. ajayden's Avatar
    Context is important. Yeah, you did that and it's great, but that doesn't actually do anything for the lack of apps on Windows. The problem that Universal apps need to solve as pointed out by Ballmer and others is getting missing apps that people need onto the platform.

    Like I said earlier, if we saw something like Snapchat (not even important for me personally, but it's a huge symbol), Starbucks, Google apps, etc... then I'd say that wow, the Universal app strategy to get apps on phone might have a chance. Right now, all we're seeing is apps like yours - developers who are already developing on Windows putting out W10 Universal apps. Again, great, but how does that fix any of W10M's problems?
    First of all Balmer is a loser who did not do anything but marketing gimmicks during his tenure.

    Next, I would like put back the question to you. If what you say is right, then based on your analysis what is your suggestion for Microsoft?

    Snapchat is a huge symbol?? for what??

    Google apps are not on windows because google does not want them to be there. They know that once Google apps come on windows phone, most of the users will move away from them. Google is scared even though they command higher market share.

    Next I would also like to bring to everyone's attention :

    Having 1 Billion or more apps does not mean that they have quality. What is the point of having a 1000 selfie apps and no one even rate it in the store. That shows the quality control of the OS.

    On Windows, Most of the tasks are neatly done by the apps provided by the OS and you don't need another set of 1000 apps to do one task.

    These are my observations being a developer on all the three OS. Everybody else's view might vary.
    12-28-2015 01:41 AM
  23. jhoff80's Avatar
    First of all Balmer is a loser who did not do anything but marketing gimmicks during his tenure.
    This alone pretty much discounts everything you say, but for the hell of it...

    Next, I would like put back the question to you. If what you say is right, then based on your analysis what is your suggestion for Microsoft?
    There's no easy solution. There's not really much they can do about it. Obviously they have to keep trying, but there's nothing that will magically fix all their woes. Android apps on W10M had the best shot, in my opinion. If they did 99% of the work for the developer like the goal of Astoria was to do, then maybe the developers would put in that last 1% of the effort to get an app on the store. Otherwise, I just don't see much changing no matter what Microsoft does.

    Snapchat is a huge symbol?? for what??
    It's a symbol because it's a hugely popular app (despite claims to the contrary on this site, it's used for far more than teenage sexting - at over 100 million active users daily, it's far larger than Windows 10 Mobile) from a startup that couldn't care less about Microsoft. There's a ton of other startups that have the exact same sentiment, and unfortunately, it's not going to be easy to change their minds. It's doubtful that any hot new service, device, app, game, etc. is going to come to Windows. Still, getting something like Snapchat would be a sign that the attitude is changing.

    Google apps are not on windows because google does not want them to be there. They know that once Google apps come on windows phone, most of the users will move away from them. Google is scared even though they command higher market share.
    Sure, Google doesn't want to bother with Windows as a platform. And of course, why should they help out a struggling competitor? But seriously? Most of their users are automatically going to change operating systems and throw away the entire way they interact with their phone (as well as all of the content they've purchased over the years) just because Google puts out a couple apps for the competition? Sounds like a fantasy world.

    Having 1 Billion or more apps does not mean that they have quality. What is the point of having a 1000 selfie apps and no one even rate it in the store. That shows the quality control of the OS.
    Not a single person is saying that we need a billion apps. It'd be nice to have an app for my bank and my credit card though. And the airlines I use. And the coffee shop I go to. And the streaming service I use. And the eBook service I use. And the smarthome hardware I'd like to use. And the dating services I use. And the social networks I use. And for some people the smartwatches they might want to use. And the cars they want to use. And so on and so forth. Reducing this argument to a quality versus quantity thing is just wrong.

    On Windows, Most of the tasks are neatly done by the apps provided by the OS and you don't need another set of 1000 apps to do one task.
    See above. The stuff that's missing and is hugely important is not being provided by the OS. Now again, I would absolutely love Universal apps to change this. I would love Windows 10 Mobile to grow into an actual competitor to the other two platforms in terms of market share. But there's very little reason to think anything is changing. As I said already, it's great we're seeing a ton of Windows 8/WP8 apps updated to Universal apps... but there's been nothing yet that demonstrates the 'app gap' issue is changing. We'll have to see new-to-the-platform apps before there's any evidence that this Universal app strategy has made any difference whatsoever.
    tillsky likes this.
    12-28-2015 02:09 AM
  24. tushar_kp's Avatar
    The APIs are different and now universal apps share around 90% of code..so it is much more easier than it used to be on WP8.1..
    rhapdog likes this.
    12-28-2015 02:35 AM
  25. rhapdog's Avatar
    You completely missed my point. What I meant was that 1 billion is not some magical, astronomical number. How significant is 1 billion users? Sure, the number has a lot of zeros, but what does it mean?

    How will the developers respond? Sure, take 1 billion W10M devices, and they'd be all over it. Or take 1 billion devices running W10 desktop, and they might be all over it (for sure if x86 apps would no longer be an option). But divide 1 billion up among desktop (with some of them in tablet form), mobile, xBox, and IoT devices. How do the developers respond then?

    All we can do is wait and see.
    No, I didn't miss your point, tgp, really. I just didn't understand why you think 1 billion users wouldn't make much of a difference. I don't think you understand the details of programming for the Universal Windows Platform. I was a developer for many years before I retired. If I was still in the business, I'd be jumping all over this as fast as I could. I've been tempted to come out of retirement just to get in early and establish a unique app at the top of the new system, but my family is more important than money at this point, and we have enough.

    That's all I've got for you, tgp.

    For everyone else that thinks the Universal Windows Platform has already failed, read on. I've got some more rant. ;)

    How significant is 1 billion users? How significant is it for Android? How significant is it for Apple? While Apple has sold over a billion devices, that is since the very first iPhone, and it doesn't have near a billion users active. Android has a billion active users, maybe. It's up for debate. I've heard people say Android has reached a billion active users, and they may have. I just haven't read the official report showing the actual numbers. A report in December 2013 showed at that time there were 300 million active users of iPhone and 800 million active users of Android.

    1 billion is 1/7th of the world's population. Yes, it is divided up between desktop, tablet, mobile, Xbox, and IoT, but they only have to write for the Universal Windows Platform, and they can target the entire 1 billion potential. Now, for the first time, an Android developer outfit can ADD an extra billion possible users by adding one additional platform to develop for. As a developer, it would make me salivate.

    The thing is that Android's store has enough of a user base to make developers sit up and take notice. The Windows Store, as One store, will do the same. Some developers are already starting to take notice, and we are getting the universal apps coming in. I believe the rate will pick up as the Windows 10 adoption numbers rise.

    Right now, for Android or iPhone, or even Windows Phone, the only way to increase their numbers is to get more people in the world to adopt using a phone. This is difficult to do in developing countries where the cost of the service is more of an issue than even the cost of the device, though the cost of the device plays a major role as well.

    However, Microsoft has found a way to increase those numbers without increasing their phone market share. A brilliant move, I believe.

    All I'm saying is, as new as the Universal Windows Apps for Windows 10 is, it can not be said to either be succeeding OR failing at this point. Android took a bit of time before it took off and got the apps. iOS didn't have the apps in the first 6 months either. Windows 10 is an entirely new player on the market, and the store thus far is much more successful than the Windows 8 store was during the last several years, and it's only 6 months old, and Mobile really hasn't gotten off the ground yet in any meaningful manner. Let's get official roll-outs to existing phones and more new phones from different manufacturers released and we'll see where that goes.
    tgp, HeyCori, PepperdotNet and 2 others like this.
    12-28-2015 09:15 AM
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