09-01-2017 02:51 AM
41 12
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  1. aj173's Avatar
    Full W10 on ARM is pointless on phones, and MS has said several times that W10 on ARM is not coming to phones. What is happening is that Microsoft is going to give up phones altogether and refocus on cheap PCs and tablets that get good battery life. They will still be "in mobile", but their interpretation of being "in mobile" means making iOS/Android apps that allow people to use their phones in the MS ecosystem and hitch people to MS services.

    There is no "Surface Phone" coming, and no magical transformer PC that you can fold up and use as a phone. W10 on ARM is designed to help OEMs pump out $200 ARM-based PCs for students and poor people.
    GhostEchelon likes this.
    07-24-2017 02:46 PM
  2. fatclue_98's Avatar
    As rational as it sounds, I'd like to see some form of backup to your post. Don't get me wrong, it makes perfect sense to me but there are those who can't take off the blinders and will assail your theory. Come up with a citation or prepare to be flamed to a crisp.
    07-24-2017 02:58 PM
  3. milkyway's Avatar
    If they would give up on phones/mobiles, the whole point about UWP vanishes. MS is all-in with it's UWP and Windows 10 would be seriously damaged by this.
    No, W10oARM is the future for phones/mobiles. Why else would they develop CShell?
    They say it's "not for phones" because they want to avoid the name "phone" in all their communication. They want to lose the bad rep they have with phones so they want to create "a new category", even if it's only marketing bull****.
    07-25-2017 04:23 AM
  4. kaktus1389's Avatar
    I still think there are people out there who don't write editorials but mostly just state facts. In the last Windows Central podcast, Zac Bowden mentioned that Microsoft is working on something new internally and from what I understood they're experimenting with different modules for OneCore which means that whatever they bring up next won't be just Windows 10 we know on PCs or Windows 10 Mobile but a little bit of everything.

    However I do not expect anything from them until 2020 or 2019, since it took the Surface team 2 years to refine the Surface Laptop.
    07-25-2017 04:58 AM
  5. Vittorio Vaselli's Avatar
    You are right, WoA is not for phones, they said it a lot of times. But you are also wrong, they are working on a new phone, of course it will not use full Windows destkop.
    Drael646464 likes this.
    07-25-2017 08:59 AM
  6. milkyway's Avatar
    The next iteration of W10 on a phone/mobile device will probably be kind of a mix between full W10 and W10M. They will take only what is need from full W10 and put in the telephony stack of W10M.
    No way MS will put the whole 20 GB W10 OS on a mobile device
    07-25-2017 09:19 AM
  7. PerfectReign's Avatar
    There is no "Surface Phone" coming, and no magical transformer PC that you can fold up and use as a phone. W10 on ARM is designed to help OEMs pump out $200 ARM-based PCs for students and poor people.
    Source?

    Sent from mTalk on my 950xl
    07-25-2017 09:41 AM
  8. tgp's Avatar
    Source?
    Has Microsoft ever officially said anything about the Surface Phone? Hasn't it mostly been a fabrication by tech journalists and fans?
    07-25-2017 09:46 AM
  9. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Has Microsoft ever officially said anything about the Surface Phone? Hasn't it mostly been a fabrication by tech journalists and fans?
    It's not a fabrication, it's a pipe dream. Rumors are usually based on some fact, whilst pipe (wet) dreams are wishful thinking and praying to Unicorn Gods.
    07-25-2017 10:47 AM
  10. techiez's Avatar
    If they would give up on phones/mobiles, the whole point about UWP vanishes. MS is all-in with it's UWP and Windows 10 would be seriously damaged by this.
    No, W10oARM is the future for phones/mobiles. Why else would they develop CShell?
    They say it's "not for phones" because they want to avoid the name "phone" in all their communication. They want to lose the bad rep they have with phones so they want to create "a new category", even if it's only marketing bull****.

    Indeed most likely it is not for phones, CShell is to support different form factors, mainly handheld scanners, PDAs etc, such mobile computing devices are in demand with enterprises and the upcoming devices will have their own market, just not looking to replace iphones or droids, atleast in near future. MS needs to be all in with UWP but their actions seem to point otherwise, for ex, still no serious push towards UWP, The upcoming WoA is W10M + W32 emulation added, if UWP was taking off they didnt need WoA.
    07-25-2017 01:20 PM
  11. aXross's Avatar
    Well Windows 10 on ARM is really another SKU for PCs that have ARM SoC instead of x86-64 chipsets. Microsoft never seem to really meant that its going to be the actual replacement for Windows 10 Mobile. It is an approach to have PCs that have benefits of ARM devices that are always-connected, great performance, completely fanless and great battery life, that will be sold at more competitive pricing. It is a solution too for the abandonment of Intel Atom and replacing it.

    UWP will be still their future, but Microsoft sure is taking quite slow with it. UWP is also highly dependent on the success of non-traditional computing such as smartphones, which Microsoft is seriously weak at. Windows tablets are doing well, but the problem is that Microsoft themselves seems to act that they don't matter which there seem no encouragement, and they even marketing Surface Pro to be a laptop, while that device first and foremost is a tablet. The lack of halo device on 8-inch tablet contributes to the slowness of adoption to UWP, which a form-factor will benefit most.

    Windows 10 Mobile I think will be just renamed and refreshed, while cutting-off current devices. Windows 10 Mobile with CShell will likely play a big role on Windows devices for phones, small tablets, and all other handheld devices. Maybe if they can make it more modular, they can fit it to wearable devices and other types of devices that don't need a full PC variant of Windows 10.
    07-25-2017 10:00 PM
  12. Drael646464's Avatar
    Full W10 on ARM is pointless on phones, and MS has said several times that W10 on ARM is not coming to phones. What is happening is that Microsoft is going to give up phones altogether and refocus on cheap PCs and tablets that get good battery life. They will still be "in mobile", but their interpretation of being "in mobile" means making iOS/Android apps that allow people to use their phones in the MS ecosystem and hitch people to MS services.

    There is no "Surface Phone" coming, and no magical transformer PC that you can fold up and use as a phone. W10 on ARM is designed to help OEMs pump out $200 ARM-based PCs for students and poor people.
    I completely agree that without a table projector, windows on arm would be pointless on a phone. I don't think this is a strategy.

    However, I disagree that it makes any sense, in light of MSFTs repeatedly stated vision of 0D to 4D, and "hardware independent scaling OS", or even promoting UWP development that giving on smaller screens completely makes any logical sense.

    Also WoA is not simply for cheap devices it is for

    1) Tablets and laptops with smartphone like properties and slim design, so windows can be competitive - ie always on LTE, GPS etc

    2) The promotion of UWP, because its the native app system on windows on arm, and will offer a supper UX (and because those above smartphone like features give motive for ios ports of mobility apps)


    Its worth remembering that win32 is a 'sometimes _near_ native speed emulation'. That means UWP will run AT LEAST 30 percent faster sometimes more, and also have things like scaling and better toast notifications, GPS useage, suited to slimmer mobile devices like tablets and notebooks.

    Basically in all ways UWP will offer the better UX. Windows on arm in that sense, is really using backwards compatibility to promote the new app platform. Its pretty sly.

    As for a 'surface phone' well what I've seen in the windows code makes it pretty clear the new device has its own SKU (not windows 10), and is a dual screen device with a detachable hinge. Which is not like the fabled surface phone, and not running windows 10. Rumour I heard is its a branch of win10m (heard that a few times via separate sources).

    It's not an "ultimate mobile widget", simply a novel form factor that probably has a productivity focus like the surface. Its also not a folding graphene screen (those are probably a decade off consumer pricing guys!). However there is definitely a device in the works, it's just nothing like the fantasy device one screen slab or graphene screen running windows on arm.

    I'm sure EVENTUALLY there will be a WoA device with a graphene screen, but that sort of tech is a long way off from being viable as a consumer product.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 07-30-2017 at 01:55 AM.
    aXross and techiez like this.
    07-25-2017 10:11 PM
  13. jefbeard911's Avatar
    Full W10 on ARM is pointless on phones, and MS has said several times that W10 on ARM is not coming to phones. What is happening is that Microsoft is going to give up phones altogether and refocus on cheap PCs and tablets that get good battery life. They will still be "in mobile", but their interpretation of being "in mobile" means making iOS/Android apps that allow people to use their phones in the MS ecosystem and hitch people to MS services.

    There is no "Surface Phone" coming, and no magical transformer PC that you can fold up and use as a phone. W10 on ARM is designed to help OEMs pump out $200 ARM-based PCs for students and poor people.
    The first stage of grieving is DENIAL.
    07-26-2017 06:50 AM
  14. etphoto's Avatar
    I went back and listened to Brad Sams June podcast for the 4th time lol. Paying close attention to the Win on Arm part of it Brad said T Mobile has the technology (called digits) to turn a small table arm device into a mobile device. It would be something u could buy out of the device MS store turning your Arm device into a phone, essentially.

    He also said MS is working on relaunching a phone.

    So, who really cares if it's a new phone or a mobile Arm device as long as they are still in the game. 🙂

    Twitter: @PhotographyET
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    07-26-2017 08:27 AM
  15. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I went back and listened to Brad Sams June podcast for the 4th time lol. Paying close attention to the Win on Arm part of it Brad said T Mobile has the technology (called digits) to turn a small table arm device into a mobile device. It would be something u could buy out of the device MS store turning your Arm device into a phone, essentially.

    He also said MS is working on relaunching a phone.

    So, who really cares if it's a new phone or a mobile Arm device as long as they are still in the game. ������

    Twitter: @PhotographyET
    I'm giving DIGITS a trial run with a Gear S2 watch. Since none of the smartwatches currently supporting W10M have voice capability I "paired" the Gear with my phone number and now I can answer calls and texts without having to have my phone nearby. I could conceivably wear my Band 2 for email and other notifications while using the Gear for stand-alone voice and SMS. Besides looking like a total dork it wouldn't look good here in Miami because Fidel famously wore 2 watches all the time (Havana time and Moscow time).
    07-26-2017 10:19 AM
  16. Jakoh's Avatar
    i am sure a more mobile Surface ARM device with LTE is coming. wheather its called the surface phone is entirely upto how small it is or how small its folds or how big our pockets grow.
    07-26-2017 12:11 PM
  17. RaRa85's Avatar
    Joe Belfiore is that you? Is it you Joe?lol Now granted given Microsoft's shaky past history anything is possible amd this COULD BE the case. But I through with the guessing and predicting of Microsoft's next move. That's exactly why I've been on Android the last three years. I'll wait and see what they come up with and if I want to be a part of that experience. Where are your sources? Who do you know that's a close source? Anyway just follow my lead. Get out the game and watch from the stands. Microsoft has been hugely unfair to a group of people so passionate about seeing mobile continue on the Windows platform.
    07-29-2017 09:57 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    The upcoming WoA is W10M + W32 emulation added
    This is incorrect. IMHO understanding why is important.

    1)

    There is no such thing as "Win32 emulation". Win32 is an API. In the context of W10oA, the whole idea of "emulating the Win32 application programing interface" makes no sense. (WCentral's staff have also made this mistake)

    In the context of W10oA, what is actually being emulated is the x86 CPU instruction set, not the Win32 API! A CPU instruction set and an API are just two entirely different and unrelated things.

    It's been confirmed by MS that W10oA will run natively on ARM. All of the programs that ship with Windows (Notepad, etc) and all of the Win32 API will also run natively on ARM. The only time the emulator is required is when the user installs x86 software from a CD, the Web, or Centennial ported software in the Windows Store.

    2)
    You say:

    W10M + Win32 = W10oA

    I think that represents a fundamental misunderstanding of what W10M is. This would be accurate:

    W10M + Win32 = W10
    W10 (compiled for ARM) + x86 emulator = W10oA.

    For the most part, W10oA really is just W10, compiled for a different CPU with an emulator thrown in. When hooked up to a large screen with keyboard and mouse (ignoring potential performance bottlenecks), none of us will be able to tell whether we're working with desktop Windows on an ARM or x86 computer.

    Well, how will people use W10oA on small mobile devices without a mouse and keyboard then? That's what CShell (the launcher), UWP apps and Continuum (apps which include a UI configuration for smaller displays) are for!

    With CShell, W10M, W10oA and W10 will all use the exact same launcher. Whenever one of those editions of Windows is required to present itself on a small screen, it will always be CShell that does it, and so they will all present themselves in the same way. On a small display we'll experience something similar to what W10M offers today. However, that doesn't make W10oA or W10 any more like W10M!

    Why not? Because the defining trait of W10M is not its launcher. It never has been. The defining trait of W10M is and always has been its omittance of Win32! Once CShell exists, Win32 (and the different set of platform drivers which don't technically belong to the OS anyway) will be the only thing differentiating W10M from W10.

    It is true, literally and without simplification, to say that W10M + Win32 = W10.

    None of the above is speculation. This is now all well established and confirmed by MS.
    Last edited by a5cent; 08-02-2017 at 06:10 PM. Reason: spelling
    HeyCori, Player Piano and milkyway like this.
    08-01-2017 10:36 AM
  19. Drael646464's Avatar
    none of us will be able to tell whether we're working with desktop Windows on an ARM or x86 computer.
    .
    Of course we can - aside from the fact that ARM chips feature always on LTE, GPS and so on - mostly near native speed emulation is slower than native speed UWP. There will be times when those speed differences are quite obvious in terms of UX.
    08-01-2017 08:05 PM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    Of course we can - aside from the fact that ARM chips feature always on LTE, GPS and so on - mostly near native speed emulation is slower than native speed UWP. There will be times when those speed differences are quite obvious in terms of UX.
    Read my post again, this time all of it, do a bit more thinking, then get back to me.
    milkyway likes this.
    08-02-2017 05:16 AM
  21. Drael646464's Avatar
    Read my post again, this time all of it, do a bit more thinking, then get back to me.
    lol
    Rad Mehr likes this.
    08-02-2017 05:55 AM
  22. John Christopoulos's Avatar
    They say it's "not for phones" because they want to avoid the name "phone" in all their communication. .
    Yes! Those devices will be pcs with phone functions. PCs are now described as all those devices with Intel or AMD chips and dedicated Radeon or GeForce graphics, mice and monitors, keyboards and hdds or ssds. Well,I have news for you... Your next PC will do sport Snapdragon chip, no cd-rom, small screen projectable with continuum, no ssd but internal storage, full or ultraHD screens, super good battery life ... Excuse me did I just describe a phone?
    It is obvious that the term phone had come to its end! The market has been overloaded with high end phones. Microsoft cannot cope with this situation and the only thing they can do, is use their fat card! The OS!
    The Windows operating system is their strong selling side and this must continue to be every Android or IOS user's companion
    if THEY SUCCEED to create"phone form factor" personal computers, then WHO would need an iPhone or a galaxy? And that will be a victory for Microsoft!!!
    08-02-2017 09:35 AM
  23. RaRa85's Avatar
    Yes! Those devices will be pcs with phone functions. PCs are now described as all those devices with Intel or AMD chips and dedicated Radeon or GeForce graphics, mice and monitors, keyboards and hdds or ssds. Well,I have news for you... Your next PC will do sport Snapdragon chip, no cd-rom, small screen projectable with continuum, no ssd but internal storage, full or ultraHD screens, super good battery life ... Excuse me did I just describe a phone?
    It is obvious that the term phone had come to its end! The market has been overloaded with high end phones. Microsoft cannot cope with this situation and the only thing they can do, is use their fat card! The OS!
    The Windows operating system is their strong selling side and this must continue to be every Android or IOS user's companion
    if THEY SUCCEED to create"phone form factor" personal computers, then WHO would need an iPhone or a galaxy? And that will be a victory for Microsoft!!!
    This begs the question if this can still compete with the mobility of a strong app ecosystem which Apple and Android surely have VS a mobile PC lacking the same app ecosystem. It seems to me that Microsoft will still need to get the app situation in a much better place or else what will these small phone sized PCs be used for outside of having the unique ability to be full PCs when using Continuum?
    08-02-2017 10:06 AM
  24. fatclue_98's Avatar
    This begs the question if this can still compete with the mobility of a strong app ecosystem which Apple and Android surely have VS a mobile PC lacking the same app ecosystem. It seems to me that Microsoft will still need to get the app situation in a much better place or else what will these small phone sized PCs be used for outside of having the unique ability to be full PCs when using Continuum?
    PCs do much more than any phone ever could and probably have more programs available than all the app stores combined.

    Sent from my Xperia XA Ultra
    John Christopoulos likes this.
    08-02-2017 12:37 PM
  25. RaRa85's Avatar
    PCs do much more than any phone ever could and probably have more programs available than all the app stores combined.

    Sent from my Xperia XA Ultra
    Yes but if you have a PC the size of a phone how much of that are you going to be able to use while away from a desktop experience? That's the million dollar question. Are we really going to be doing full Photoshop and Office on a screen that small?
    Last edited by RaRa85; 08-02-2017 at 01:19 PM.
    08-02-2017 12:56 PM
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