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05-17-2018 10:40 AM
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  1. a5cent's Avatar
    For now, yes. :)
    Andromeda as is, is a short term goal for MS. Why would you call something "Windows" if it runs on IoT devices without even a screen!? Why would you call something Windows, that has no Windows to display at all?
    What we call it is irrelevant. What matters is what it IS or IS NOT. Andromeda is not a separate OS that is distinct from Windows, nor will it become that. That is all I was disputing.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-17-2018 12:15 PM
  2. fatclue_98's Avatar
    For now, yes. :)
    Andromeda as is, is a short term goal for MS. Why would you call something "Windows" if it runs on IoT devices without even a screen!? Why would you call something Windows, that has no Windows to display at all?
    "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"
    a5cent likes this.
    04-17-2018 06:19 PM
  3. nate0's Avatar
    @Gregorius Magnus
    Why do you believe Andromeda to be a temporary goal and that Windows would become the gui layer for an OS build (maybe Andromeda)?

    @a5cent
    I'm curious where your confidence in how you understand and know Microsoft, it's OS components, and underlying structure comes from? I read any of your posts when I come across them...
    a5cent likes this.
    04-17-2018 07:22 PM
  4. a5cent's Avatar
    I'm curious where your confidence in how you understand and know Microsoft, it's OS components, and underlying structure comes from? I read any of your posts when I come across them...
    I'm a software engineer. I've spent a large part of my career teaching other engineers how to work with and understand software development and MS' OS technologies. I also regularly communicate with engineers in MS' OS and devdiv divisions.

    While I have a solid understanding of the technology, I'm not privy to goals that are set at the highest levels of management. However, just understanding the economics and technical ramifications of software development is enough to rule out many of the missunderstandings that permeate WCentral, even those that relate to strategy.
    nate0 and Laura Knotek like this.
    04-17-2018 07:37 PM
  5. ghostshade's Avatar
    Cloud only and the Ai future sounds grand and fresh but its really just a fresh paint onto the old mainframe idea of the 1970s.

    I for one has no love for that concept at all.

    Not to mention that IoT is a security nightmare and will be prohibited at several companies due to that fact.

    Cloud storage like onedrive is also prohibited due to security and other more controlled server solutions are used instead.

    Cortana is a joke outside of the US and even if it was not, its one of the first things that are removed alongside the windows store due to company policy settings.

    Perhaps i am biased but outside of the renting of servers via Azure for material that is not restricted i see very little use for the cloud first hype.
    Last edited by ghostshade; 04-20-2018 at 06:46 AM.
    04-20-2018 06:24 AM
  6. Long Xuyen's Avatar
    Bajan I agree with you but add a couple of riders. WM was doing ok, not great but ok, outside the USA and it gave an entry point that has now been lost. Perhaps cloud stuff is sexy in the USA but in many other countries the phone comms are simply inadequate. Here in Australia we have MANY blackspots and wireless is just not on while landline speeds are crap. So while nutty Nadella focuses on the US, he will lose much of the rest of the world's cash.
    04-20-2018 08:58 AM
  7. Long Xuyen's Avatar
    See my comment below. Many countries have poor cooms, poorer than the US, but they spend cash that Nadella is deliberately foregoing ..... or is hw going to build our ITC backbone for us?
    04-20-2018 09:03 AM
  8. Long Xuyen's Avatar
    A lot of us on mobile devices you say? And how many of them are running a MS OS? Stuff all I suspect and, when these devices die, what will replace them? The not-yet andromeda? Do not hold your breath.
    theefman likes this.
    04-20-2018 09:10 AM
  9. orlbuckeye's Avatar
    Well Windows domination goes hand and hand with Intel domination. They both contributed each other domination
    05-02-2018 02:25 PM
  10. Gregorius Magnus's Avatar
    @Gregorius Magnus
    Why do you believe Andromeda to be a temporary goal and that Windows would become the gui layer for an OS build (maybe Andromeda)?
    Because Andromeda, having Windows become something modular is just a tool for Microsoft to then build whatever they want from those modules. Now it is the time for decomposition and then comes constructing different things. When Andromeda is done, it will be basically a modular Windows. But out of those modules "Windows" itself, the GUI will become a single module that you won't see in either self-driving cars, the thermostat, or in Amazon's Alexa. It will be non-existent, while Andromeda will still be powering those devices. There is no sense in calling those devices "Windows"-powered, as there are no windows being rendered whatsoever. This is why I say Windows will become the GUI component of Andromeda, hence it is sensible to have it placed inside the organisation, where belongs.
    05-07-2018 06:30 AM
  11. Gregorius Magnus's Avatar
    What we call it is irrelevant. What matters is what it IS or IS NOT. Andromeda is not a separate OS that is distinct from Windows, nor will it become that. That is all I was disputing.
    Okay, so if it is irrelevant what we call something, then what is behind something that you name is also irrelevant. Under these terms you are indeed right, no matter what you say.
    05-07-2018 06:32 AM
  12. Gregorius Magnus's Avatar
    Cloud storage like onedrive is also prohibited due to security and other more controlled server solutions are used instead.
    I see otherwise. I see commercial cloud storage as the supervised way of storing things. There are a lot of things that one could hold more safe in any commercial could such as Azure than some local manifestation. Think about all the political affairs that are going on in some local databases. While when having something in the cloud or even done through cloud-driven processes would give no way to primitive data manipulation. Cloud could easily become the tool against third-world political manipulation and so.
    05-07-2018 06:38 AM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    Okay, so if it is irrelevant what we call something, then what is behind something that you name is also irrelevant. Under these terms you are indeed right, no matter what you say.
    I have no idea what you're trying to say. Whatever it is, it changes nothing about the fact that your statement...

    "Windows will simply become a GUI for Andromeda.
    ...makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. That's all I'm saying.


    1. Windows will remain the one and only OS MS develops, there will be no separate/distinct OS beyond that.
    2. Assuming Andromeda OS is even a thing (right now nothing points to it being its own thing), it will be as distinct from W10 as W10M was from W10, i.e. not at all.
    3. Compared to the whole 12GB of features and functionality that we call Windows, the GUI is absolutely minuscule. If any modern version of Windows requires a desktop GUI, that will be delivered by CShell and the UWP, NOT by Windows as a whole!
    4. I could go on criticizing how that statement makes no sense whatsoever, but I'll leave it at that.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-07-2018 07:34 AM
  14. Gregorius Magnus's Avatar
    I have no idea what you're trying to say. Whatever it is, it changes nothing about the fact that your statement...
    I can see that.

    ...makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. That's all I'm saying.
    Let's assume it does not! and I'll just reflect on your list.

    1. Let's assume we start at your second point which simply puts this first point out of the question.
    2. Okay, let's assume that Andromeda OS is a thing, otherwise nothing really makes sense at Microsoft, not even the things that we don't assume but know for a fact, such as Windows 10 Lean.
    3. You could have just bundled yourself CShell and UWP under the name Windows and make sense of my previous statement.
    4. You could, but it just make no sense to include it in a list.


    So basically you have two points made in the above list and that is:

    1. Andromeda will be distinct of Windows 10.
    2. Any Windows GUI will be powered by CShell and UWP.


    First statement is obviously wrong, since Andromeda consists of the decomposed modules of Windows 10 itself. Or rather Windows 10 as it is to be within 2 years (hence the short-term description of the project) will be the OS composing of the same modules Andromeda has. Andromeda will probably have more modules than what Windows 10 is to be consisting of. You can't be serious about saying that Microsoft is aiming for having to maintain once again two separate OSs, Andromeda and Windows side-by-side without turning Windows 10 into its Andromeda OS itself!

    Second statement is almost right. Only you use the term "Windows as whole". You probably came up with this because you simply refuse to accept my terminology; there won't be a "Windows as a whole", but a "Windows". This is exactly what I am saying. You cannot brand an OS as "Windows as a whole". Windows will become a desktop GUI (or a SKU for Andromeda if you will) as you say built up of CShell and UWP. And this was exactly the other thing I just said before. That this SChell UWP will be a simply a GUI for Andromeda that could even be replaced by something else not even making it a Windows, but a Circles, still running Andromeda under the hood.

    And when I say Windows will become a GUI, I don't mean the code it is running on obviously, but the meaning "Windows" will cover for Microsoft, and hence the reorg.Obviously you will have different experiences on "Windows" than what you'd have on a thermostat or on a fridge LCD or what-have-you. So it makes good sense to separate these things when decisions are being made in regards to UWP, CShell, some effects, a master-slave UI pattern, a hover effect etc... Windows will not have to deal with whatever changes come by the UWP theme. It will have to focus on having a Tabs experience and a Timeline functionality, as that is what the desktop OS is about. Not Acrylic stuff. Think of it as by decomposing Windows to Andromeda comes with the opportunity and the requirement of distinguishing its functional layers as well. Similar to the way you have 3-5-layer web application design, you will get a better layer-based OS. To this OS, the upper-most layer is what makes it Windows. Not the file-system accessing layer.
    05-07-2018 08:38 AM
  15. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Why are you guys arguing over something we know absolutely nothing of? When did conjecture and innuendo (not the Italian suppository) become fact?
    05-07-2018 10:03 AM
  16. tgp's Avatar
    When did conjecture and innuendo (not the Italian suppository) become fact?
    After it's mentioned often enough.
    05-07-2018 12:22 PM
  17. nate0's Avatar
    Let them debate. This is good stuff ;)
    05-10-2018 01:10 AM
  18. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Let them debate. This is good stuff ;)
    Debate? More like drivel.
    05-10-2018 06:56 AM
  19. nate0's Avatar
    Debate? More like drivel.
    One man's drivel could be another man's treasure.
    05-10-2018 07:41 AM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    One man's drivel could be another man's treasure.
    I agree with fatclue_98. It's drivel.

    I think the only point Magnus made which I unconditionally agree with is that I reject his terminology.

    I'm not sure what Magnus' bases his terminology on. It looks like it's partially based on branding, which I couldn't care less about ("Windows as a whole" = inappropriate terminology as MS can't market anything under that name) and additional arbitrary definitions as required ("Windows" = UWP + CShell, which at least currently is just incorrect).

    Magnus is certainly misunderstanding most of my points, if not all, and I'm sure I'm misunderstanding some of his as well, because we're simple using different language, leading to claims like the following:

    So basically you have two points made in the above list and that is:

    Andromeda will be distinct of Windows 10.
    ... which is ridiculous, as that's the exact opposite of the point I've actually been making:

    there will be no separate/distinct OS beyond that [Windows].
    1)
    Note that with "Windows" I'm referring to the software (the nuts and bolts), which MS distributes under that name, NOT the branding. If MS rebrands Windows to "Fnirgelwatz OS", as far as I'm concerned, we're still talking about the same OS. It just happens to use a different moniker.

    2)
    Note also that so far, I'm not saying what Andromeda WILL BE. I don't know what it will be. I'm asserting what Andromeda will NOT be. It will NOT be a distinct OS (in the way Linux is distinct from Windows). Whatever Andromeda is, it will still be Windows. If it has a UI, it will be provided by UWP+CShell, but that is not the same as saying "Windows" will provide the UI.

    Summary)

    There is no way MS can complete an entirely distinct and feature complete OS in the amount of time they have been working on Andromeda (Consider that it took MS three years to complete the comparatively simple and small WP7). It's also highly unlikely that MS would develop a separate and distinct OS, after having just spent over a decade unifying all the distinct versions of Windows. MS would be headed right back to the place they just spent billions to get away from.

    Of course, if Magnus views the "Home", "Professional" and "Lean" editions of Windows as being distinct operating systems, rather than just different editions of the same OS (because "branding"), then much of this discussion can be thrown out, because one of us subscribes to a dysfunctional understanding of what defines an OS.

    Without Magnus and I first agreeing on more common terminology, there is little point in continuing this discussion.
    05-15-2018 05:33 AM
  21. a5cent's Avatar
    Now I will speculate:

    As usual, I think WCentral is, as a result of their technical incompetence, screwed up in their reporting on Andromeda. They repeatedly refer to Andromeda devices and an Andromeda OS, which I think is counterproductive.

    From what I understand, Andromeda is a project codename, not a product or set of products. It's directly comparable to how Redstone is the codename for Windows 10. Every project at MS has a codename.

    In the same way project Redstone doesn't mean MS is about to release a Redstone OS, project Andromeda doesn't mean MS will release an Andromeda OS. That's why I claim that there is little reason to believe "Andromeda OS" is actually a thing, i.e. a product.

    The Andromeda device, I'll call it FMD (foldable mobile device) will be the first device this newer and more configurable version of Windows will be installed onto, which is why this device and MS' recent OS efforts are part of the same internal project. This device might actually be called "Andromeda", or it might not.

    From a consumer's point of view, the OS related efforts of project Andromeda simply aren't very meaningful. It is meaningful primarily to MS and (to an extent) also to OEMs. It's been widely reported that Andromeda's goal is to make Windows more modular. Technically that means this will allow MS to more strictly segment the different parts of the Windows OS, have those segments be somewhat more granular, and have the boarders run along different/additional lines than they do now. Different technical segmentation invariably leads to a different organization of development teams, which is how project Andromeda relates to the topic of this thread (reorg).

    I wrote this just to clarify some of my thinking. Most of my beef is with how "Andromeda" is being reported on, rather than what Andromeda (software or hardware) reportedly IS or IS NOT.
    Last edited by a5cent; 05-15-2018 at 05:52 PM.
    fatclue_98 and nate0 like this.
    05-15-2018 07:04 AM
  22. Gregorius Magnus's Avatar
    I never learn to compose my posts in a text editor, before the website engine decides to simply remove my writing somehow from the input field and have it all gone. So forgive me if my below thoughts will be even worse than before. But I always get somewhat frustrated when writing things for the second time.

    From a consumer point of view, the OS related efforts of project Andromeda simply aren't very meaningful. It is meaningful primarily to MS and (to an extent) also to OEMs. It's been widely reported that Andromeda's goal is to make Windows more modular. Technically that means this will allow MS to more strictly segment the different parts of the Windows OS, have those segments be somewhat more granular, and have the boarders run along different/additional lines than they do now. Different technical segmentation invariably leads to a different organization of development teams, which is how project Andromeda relates to the topic of this thread (reorg).
    This thought of you comes really close to mine. This is pretty much what I have been saying, only you don't make the re-brand that I do. That is basically it. But I can ask you a question and that will simply get things sorted.

    Do you think it makes sense to call the desktop OS that you are using Windows 10 and call the chip in the Smart-Light-bulb Windows 10 the same way?

    Probably you say yes. Otherwise I don't see your reasoning.
    I say, no. Let's call both of them Andromeda-powered. And let's call Windows the set of Andromeda components, that make it the desktop we use. So what is a Windows department to work on? The components that are only used by the desktop OS. And what makes the desktop OS distinctive from all other devices that use Andromeda? The GUI. That is why I say, Windows will become a GUI.

    As per your previous reply:

    I'm not sure what Magnus' bases his terminology on. It looks like it's partially based on branding, which I couldn't care less about
    So basically, yes, I am talking about re-branding here. It's okay if you can't care less about it. But I believe that branding a department is no difference than branding an OS. So why would you care about the reorg then.

    Assuming Andromeda OS is even a thing (right now nothing points to it being its own thing), it will be as distinct from W10 as W10M was from W10, i.e. not at all.
    Yes, you are right. I misunderstood you there. But probably due to two things. 1) I only see a partial connection in between your reasoning and your conclusion there. I agree that Andromeda won't be distinct from Windows 10. Actually that is what I have been saying all along. Windows will be made up of Andromeda Components, including CShell and UWP. But that is exactly why I can't agree with your reasoning saying "it will be as distinct from W10 as W10M was from W10". The reason Windows 10 Mobile was let die is that it was distinct in many ways, including the lack of CShell itself. It used a different shell. 2) I saw that you edited your post after posting while I had been already composing my reply and realized the changes after having my post sent. But I did not have time then to come back and tailor my response.

    If MS was to rename the OS to "Fnirgelwatz OS", I'd be fine having a reorg and coming up with a Department of "Fnirgelwatz Experience and Devices", so I am completely fine also with current reorg, Windows becoming a secondary level in MS, while realising that components of Andromeda, playing a role in IoT devices as well will be raised to higher importance than the ones that are only included in the desktop OS, hence me referring to it as Windows.

    Whatever Andromeda is, it will still be Windows. If it has a UI, it will be provided by UWP+CShell, but that is not the same as saying "Windows" will provide the UI.
    So if "Windows" will not provide the UI for Andromeda, then why call it "Windows"? And what to do with "Windows" then? This is exactly what I am saying and asking. "Windows" will become a container of UWP, and a use-case of CShell.

    And that said, here are my opinions about Windows 10 Mobile. Windows Phones and Windows Mobiles should have never been called "Windows", because they only featured full-screen apps. They would have been better fit with even Microsoft Fnirgelwatz 7, 8, 8.1 and 10. Or even Andromeda for what I care, although that stands for another concept or project as you say, but has the same relation to the device and its software that Windows 10 desktop has. Not much. On the other hand, I would not call a new mobile device, should that be a telephony-capable handset or a revived Currier, the Andromeda Device either, but that one could be called Windows by me, since it will run the same UI, the way I imagine it. Close to this implementation: (https://mspoweruser.com/instructions...-lumia-950-xl/) So it would deserve the "Windows" name as opposed to Fnirgelwatz or Andromeda, rather than its predecessors.

    But the "Windows" team inside Microsoft will be responsible for developing Sets, Taskbar, People Hub, Calendar fly-out, the Task View, etc... and make them scale to whatever form factor. But I doubt, that the "Windows" team will have to do anything about what the Kinect Project is running on. That camera does not display anything. Not even a teensy bit of a Start button. And it could still be Andromeda powered. The same applies for the smart light-bulb, the Cortana-powered Thermostat, Cortana also being a component of Andromeda as opposed to the speech recognition and voice command in Microsoft Phone 8.1, and the Thermostat does not have "Windows" in its name either.
    05-15-2018 10:38 AM
  23. fatclue_98's Avatar
    The same applies for the smart light-bulb, the Cortana-powered Thermostat, Cortana also being a component of Andromeda as opposed to the speech recognition and voice command in Microsoft Phone 8.1, and the Thermostat does not have "Windows" in its name either.
    Andromeda is a part of Windows, not an independent entity. You keep throwing it around as if it were. I know we use individual brands in our daily lives but that's not at play here. For example, you wouldn't say "that Ford hauls a$$", you would say "that Mustang hauls a$$". But it's still a Ford with its Blue Oval and all.
    a5cent likes this.
    05-15-2018 12:52 PM
  24. cloakandcipher's Avatar
    Seems like Magnus is just conflating Andromeda with Cshell and the future Windows with the current desktop only model of OS. From what I've read (mind you I have zero expertise) Andromeda is simply the codename for the foldable mobile device project. Cshell is the shorthand for the modules Windows is being broken down into, some of which will be used to construct the software basis for project Andromeda. Cshell is all Windows though, just stripped down into components to be packaged in different ways for new form factors (i.e. Andromeda, Polaris, etc.) So Andromeda will never run on a lightbulb, but Cshell might provide the basis for Windows to run on a lightbulb.
    05-15-2018 05:08 PM
  25. a5cent's Avatar
    Andromeda is a part of Windows, not an independent entity.
    I agree with what you're saying, but I'm not sure it's the best way to think of it.

    Redstone 4 is something transient. Once Redstone 4 is finished and MS' employees are reassigned to other projects, Redstone 4 ceases to exist. The results of that project are absorbed into a specific revision of the Windows OS. Because Redstone 4 ceases to exist, it can itself not be part of anything.

    In the case of project Andromeda this is even clearer, as project Andromeda isn't adding anything to the OS at all. It's simply restructuring what is already there. Even while it exists as a project, it's not creating anything new that can be part of anything.


    I know these are subtleties but I do think this helps to foster understanding.
    nate0 and Laura Knotek like this.
    05-17-2018 08:11 AM
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