How Much is Riding on Andromeda?

justjun555

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So we will have Andromeda vs Galaxy X. Who will release first ;)

Andromeda. if rumors to be believed galaxy x pushed to 2019. Huawei is tipped to release foldable phone in 2018.
Both are going to be a different devices actually andromeda is a dual screen device like zte axon m. While Samsung is chasing true foldable phone with foldable display.
 

eshropshire

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So we will have Andromeda vs Galaxy X. Who will release first ;)

Who is to say they are not one in the same device. Samsung built device for MS to run Windows ARM and a Samsung phone running android. MS and Samsung seem to have a good relationship. MS these days are more into partnering with HW. I have no knowledge, but MS will have to get their fold able screens from someone in the screen business.
 

TechFreak1

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I disagree.

Consumers are hype and fad-chasing, high-risk and low-margin customers. Only if your business model relies primarily on high volume sales must you target consumers. Otherwise you'll be better off ignoring them.

IBM or SAP are two huge software corporations that have been around for a long time. Neither of them have cared about consumers in decades but they reliably generate huge profits and are absolutely sustainable. IMHO their existence proves software companies can get on just fine without consumers.

MS doesn't need consumers. Some of MS' offerings do however, foremost Windows and UWP.

MS has spent two decades restructuring Windows so it can run on a very wide range of hardware, large and small, from cloud server farms, to tablets, to gaming consoles and to IoT devices. That is a high-volume low-margin platform strategy that can't succeed without consumers. That represents at most 1/3 of MS' revenue however. Losing that would hurt, but it's no longer essential.

IBM and SAP had to lose many aspects of their portfolio to "stay around" and focus on singular aspect then diverse their holdings. However they do need costumers to stay around and this case it's enterprise users who are "consuming" / using their services and products.

In regards to Microsoft, you've proven my point cosumers are required when it comes to Windows and UWP.

Since their entire story revolves around Windows and therefore by extension UWP. There is on crucial factor that is at play here - integrity and by extension trust. Why I say that - Microsoft's entire goal through creation of the company was to encompass the three screens and the cloud as a result all that time and work was spent unifying the core of Windows to span many types of devices. By not focusing on UWP, that is thrown out the window (excuse the pun). Any operating system needs an app model to survive, Fortunately for Windows - Win32 applications will not being a going away anytime soon.
(Trust - that's simple - if any company is going to throw away all that effort on a whim to generate short term profits does not bode well when it comes to long play in terms of reliance when it comes to product planning - as result OEMs are pushing Alexa - just on example - yes there are other factors at play here - tooo many to list and elaborate on).

However if Microsoft is going to be competitive in the enterprise sector they need devices that focus on connectivity and portability. That is where Windows on ARM comes into the play but without UWP it doens't hold any muster. Which is why the reviews of these initial WoA devices were so dire thus most of the reviews revolved around emulation.

Microsoft absolutely needs WoA as it is the holy grail to computing - you have always on connectivity with crazy battery life [Intel or AMD are nowhere near to offering anything in that sector (yet)].

That is now a manadatory requirement for most people and also the planet as whole. As the global population increases, energy demands will increase so you must have devices that consume less energy, also run longer, are more efficient and charger faster.

To mitigate the strain on the infrastructure - for example power plants used to hold reserve power for "tea time" when many british households would put the kettle on around the same time. Everything and everyone is interconnected in one form or another.

If we are dealing with simple absolutes.

The only other method is to become so entrenched in everything (infrastructure) and that was proven correct by Satya Nadella saying he want's Microsoft to become the World's Computer. However that is not a sustainable strategy as you need to take into the account the vast costs of running data centres.
(Which is why Apple has been gobbling up renewable energy companies and billing themselves as a sole customers whilst selling their own energy supply to themselves).

There must be a always an offset as otherwise you will never be able to balance the books.

I agree with you that Windows will take a back seat in one point in time hence the rebrand of Microsoft 365 as a development platform.

But the fact remains without many growth avenues any company will reach a saturation point and therefore will have to expand in other areas. Let's take IBM for example they have been showing adverts how Watson can help small businesses that I would say classes as a form expansion into other areas because they've hit the inflection point and need to show stock holders that they are still growing as a company.

So going back to Microsoft, they still need the low end of the spectrum of computing (Again WoA+UWP) as without it sooner or later their hold in the enterprise sector will erode and so will the uptake of office 365. Simply because Google is making an aggressive push and when these kids grow up using solely android devices, chromebooks and google services it will force a change in the enterprise sector. (The old adage of nothing lasts forever, rings true for almost everything). It already is as many companies want people who have experience with Google docs and services.

As after all many of Google services are "free" and thus makes it even more a compelling argument to switch and save money. So Microsoft will be left with three options 1)Continue as is 2)Engage in a race to the bottom or 3)Stop participating. Neither hold positive growth points.

As they are so focused on ios and android that they foregoing mindshare when it comes to Windows based devices. As result OEMs are pushing Alexa instead of Cortana on Windows based devices. In addition they did stop participating and look where that got them.

In addition, Trust that is at an all time low given how many bridges Microsoft has burnt with Developers, OEMs, the consumer sector.

Mindshare is the key, people don't call themselves a microsoft gamer but a PC gamer or xbox gamer.

There are so many nuances and variables at play but I won't get into those are I'd end up typing up an entire library. So I'm being brief in regards to each point.

Now, lets put everything aside for one second and to put things into perspective.

There is a position called VP of Growth and Ecosystems.

Now, I'm not going to say what that tells me as I want to see what materialises due to this newly create post (the person holding the title, Charlotte Yarkoni has only been with the company for 8 months or so).

The only thing I want to say is that I hope she is given a blank cheque as you cannot grow anything with an artificially imposed cap. That's not to say the books shouldn't be balanced, a plant in a controlled environment will grow only when it has access the appropriate nutrients and care.
 

a5cent

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In regards to Microsoft, you've proven my point consumers are required when it comes to Windows and UWP.

I don't think I've proven your point. This is your point which I was objecting to:

No company can survive in the long term without a consumers, it's profoundly naive to think that solely relying on the enterprise is sustainable.
I provided examples of software companies that HAVE not only survived, but thrived without consumers. SAP didn't have to sacrifice anything for their success with corporations, as they've always been enterprise focused. I also pointed out that not all of MS' products will survive (or make sense) without consumers, but that is an entirely different statement.

MS as a company can absolutely survive without Windows and UWP. It will just be quite different from the MS people are familiar with today. If you can agree with that then we can move on.

I agree with most of your other statements. It's funny that everything I disagree with is localized to this one paragraph:
Since their entire story revolves around Windows and therefore by extension UWP. There is on crucial factor that is at play here - integrity and by extension trust. Why I say that - Microsoft's entire goal through creation of the company was to encompass the three screens and the cloud as a result all that time and work was spent unifying the core of Windows to span many types of devices. By not focusing on UWP, that is thrown out the window (excuse the pun). Any operating system needs an app model to survive, Fortunately for Windows - Win32 applications will not being a going away anytime soon.

I just don't want to open that can of worms before the previous issue is resolved ;-)
 
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TechFreak1

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I provided examples of software companies that HAVE not only survived, but thrived without consumers. SAP didn't have to sacrifice anything for their success with corporations, as they've always been enterprise focused.

Fair point, as long they do not expand beyond a set trajectory they will be fine.

I also pointed out that not all of MS' products will survive (or make sense) without consumers, but that is an entirely different statement.

True.

MS as a company can absolutely survive without Windows and UWP. It will just be quite different from the MS people are familiar with today. If you can agree with that then we can move on.


True, it won't be the same company then again Satya Nadella wants to make MS an integral part of infrastructure so there is that.


I agree with most of your other statements. It's funny that everything I disagree with is localized to this one paragraph:

Haha i see, well the way I see it if Microsoft wants to become an integral part of infrastructure they will need front end devices that can show case the best case scenario. Similiarly with Surface they wanted to show OEMs that churning out crappy, bog standard laptops was not really show casing what Windows can do.

So they will need Windows as front end for direct level integration with their infastructure. In addition enterprises will need compelling arguments to purchase partner devices running Windows otherwise what is stopping them from solely buying android devices thus enabling an easier foothold for Google in the enterprise sector.

Chrome O/s is making some head way in the education and if left to do so these next generations will use what they know, buy what they know and as result the dynamic of enterprise sector will change over time. Thus further eroding the hold Microsoft has on the enterprise sector, the next logical point beyond that is infrastructure in terms of growth. Google is already in that market i.e. Google fibre which makes any form of complacency disasterous. As they will be able to leverage these assets to strengthen their infrastructure play.

Secondly Windows on ARM cannot thrive without UWP apps, PWAs aren't going to cut it when it comes to complex applications. Anyone doing light computing and web browsing will be able to get by with PWAs.

However Windows on ARM growth is dependent on UWP not emulation as no one would solely buy ARM devices to run Win32 applications. They will be bought for the instant on connectivity and battery life, however that will only get so far without an app model and by extension an ecosystem of devices.

One of the key principles to prolonged success of Android, I see is the accessory market (which will continue to grow as future generations are weened on smartphones not pianos, instruments or rattles etc) and ridiculously low price points enabled through mediatek chipsets.

To enable the "next billion of users" in emerging markets Microsoft needs Windows on ARM as these emerging markets will strain resources especially fossil fuels (not to mention accelerating climate change in the process). Devices requiring lower charge to charge times means less utilisation of electical chargers thus in turn lowering the strain on an countries infrastructure. When you have a country of over a billion people for example - lower charge to charge times makes a huge difference and when you expand the globally even more so.

However for market penetration you need apps and for that UWP is key not PWAs. As the internet bandwidth and data packages make it unsustainable for people on low incomes to constantly access the internet just to use an application.

More over if Microsoft is to retain their OEM partner connections they absolutely need Windows and an app model that will enable continued growth.

This is why I say Microsoft's entire story revolves around windows and by extension UWP. They could exist without these but without loss of substantial revenue, integrity and trust?

That would be a near impossible feat.

As it would mean completely forgoing their biggest draw for Office 365 subscriptions, software assurance contracts, loss of OEM partners that have invested heavily in R&D, Not to mention AMD, Intel and Nvidia heavily rely on Windows to ship products in the consumer space. Hardly anyone will be buying an Intel ssd to run Chrome o/s. You don't need a £1000 gpu to run tablet games lol.

Not to mention the only biggest leverage point they have for attracting developers beyond that I'm not going to go into the developer side of things either... lol.. too many worms and burnt bridges.

I just don't want to open that can of worms before the previous issue is resolved ;-)

Haha, fair enough
 

a5cent

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well the way I see it if Microsoft wants to become an integral part of infrastructure they will need front end devices that can show case the best case scenario.
Using your definition of "infrastructure" I can see where you are coming from. We both know MS sees a large part of their future and growth in their role as an infrastructure provider. However, we don't share a common understanding of what that means.

I think that has absolutely nothing to do with anything like Google fiber or end user online services. Certainly not hardware.

IMHO MS is talking about software infrastructure. Azure cloud is the prime example of what infrastructure means to MS. SQLServer or MS' recent acquisition of github also fit the mold. This is all software infrastructure, used to build, host, manage and enable OTHER software.

Already today these services are ever more OS agnostic. They don't rely on Windows and UWP is largely irrelevant to anything MS terms "infrastructure".

I think this is the root cause of why we view MS differently

Software infrastructure is already MS' most profitable endavor by far. This is why MS' stock has skyrocketed, despite consumers largely perceiving only failure and scratching their heads. MS tossing out windows, UWP and all their hardware would hurt them, but I don't think it would be anywhere close to the type of blow you make it out to be.

For these reasons I disagree that MS' entire story revoles around Windows, UWP and indirectly hardware devices.

Windows is becoming increasingly difficult to monetize. UWP and devices are important only to MS' personal-computing related efforts, which is already a minority of the company.
 
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Drael646464

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Nothing.

A) it's not a consumer product

B) Folding designs are not going to acheive mass adoption until graphene becomes cheap to manufacture (which isn't going to be for many years)

C) Andromeda is more like the HoloLens, a niche creative and enterprise product, intended as a platform for improving the OS, ecosystem and manufacturing methods for later, potentially consumer/mass adoption products based on the yet far too expensive graphene screen tech.

It makes no really difference to MSFT at all, if it makes a loss. All they really care about is if it has some amount of users, and some amount of developers. Like with the HoloLens, all they need is a bit of initial interest to build out their platform, so that they have a lead when it's perfected.


I totally feel like a stuck record explaining this stuff. Flexible screens are a nanotechnology. It's built at an atomic level.

What we will have before those are a real market viability, is just two screens put together in such a way to minimise the crease (visual tricks, rounded edges etc). The optimal way to use dual screened devices is with a split UI, or multi-tasking - or perhaps as a viewing experience where UI components and touch don't involve the crease area (because clearly drawing over, or swiping over a dent in your display isn't ideal).

Thus it's fairly clear, andromeda isn't a mass appeal device. It's for micro-productivity - meetings, journalists, sketch artists, business and the like. And it'll likely be priced for those markets too.The point in andromeda isn't to revolutionize the consumer market - it's to fill a solid niche for professionals, and create the foundation for a much later graphene screen product for general consumers.


Asking if andromeda needed to be a hit, is like asking if the first mainframes need to be mass adopted hits, or the first cellphones need to be a mass adopted hit. No, they don't, they are a pathway tech. They only need to sell to the exclusive niche they are pitched to.

No doubt, if you are a business professional, journo or similar, the andromeda device will be a golden product. They are clearly putting extra polish into this having learnt the mistakes of w10m. If not you won't have much use for it, unless you are like a hobbyist power user, who likes to play with new tech. As there will certainly be issues relating the to scaling of apps not designed to scale, or UI's that don't consider the crease.

If your the sort of person that would purchase the HoloLens because its cool, even though their aren't many apps specifically for it and it's expensive, you might fit into that hobbyist category for andromeda too (which also won't have many apps specifically for it on release, and will also be expensive)
 
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GeorgeOnArm

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Successful Business models for Andromeda were clearly defined at least 5 years ago! Watch Microsoft future vision released 2009. Essential technologies were missing. Microsoft is now a credible Surface, gaming and AR/MR hardware leader. With next generation WinCoreOS, C-Shell, all ingredients needed are finally converged at the right timing. The only weak point that can screw up is lack of creative marketing!!!
 

TechFreak1

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Using your definition of "infrastructure" I can see where you are coming from. We both know MS sees a large part of their future and growth in their role as an infrastructure provider. However, we don't share a common understanding of what that means.

I think that has absolutely nothing to do with anything like Google fiber or end user online services. Certainly not hardware.

IMHO MS is talking about software infrastructure. Azure cloud is the prime example of what infrastructure means to MS. SQLServer or MS' recent acquisition of github also fit the mold. This is all software infrastructure, used to build, host, manage and enable OTHER software.

Already today these services are ever more OS agnostic. They don't rely on Windows and UWP is largely irrelevant to anything MS terms "infrastructure".

I think this is the root cause of why we view MS differently

Software infrastructure is already MS' most profitable endavor by far. This is why MS' stock has skyrocketed, despite consumers largely perceiving only failure and scratching their heads. MS tossing out windows, UWP and all their hardware would hurt them, but I don't think it would be anywhere close to the type of blow you make it out to be.

For these reasons I disagree that MS' entire story revoles around Windows, UWP and indirectly hardware devices.

Windows is becoming increasingly difficult to monetize. UWP and devices are important only to MS' personal-computing related efforts, which is already a minority of the company.

Fair points and I agree that we do view infrastructure differently as in my view is that software cannot work without associated hardware.

Only time will tell and us speculating about ifs and maybes isn't really going to change much unless decisive action is taken on ramblings from two random people on a forum :grin::grin::grin::grin:.
 

a5cent

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Fair points and I agree that we do view infrastructure differently as in my view is that software cannot work without associated hardware.

Only time will tell and us speculating about ifs and maybes isn't really going to change much unless decisive action is taken on ramblings from two random people on a forum :grin::grin::grin::grin:.

Yup, time will tell.

I didn't really want to add anymore to this, but now need to clarify that absolutely nobody, least of all me, is claiming that software can work without associated hardware. Of course MS will be expanding their data centers and the like, but that's not what they will be selling directly.
:wink:

What we're discussing is what MS means when they say "infrastructure". You think MS means "hardware", I think MS means "software". If we google Microsoft + Infrastructure we get a LOT of hits all referring to SOFTWARE infrastructure, which I take as a good indicator of where MS is headed, but of course that doesn't give us a 100% accurate prediction of the future, so we'll see...
 

TechFreak1

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Yup, time will tell.

I didn't really want to add anymore to this, but now need to clarify that absolutely nobody, least of all me, is claiming that software can work without associated hardware. Of course MS will be expanding their data centers and the like, but that's not what they will be selling directly.
:wink:

What we're discussing is what MS means when they say "infrastructure". You think MS means "hardware", I think MS means "software". If we google Microsoft + Infrastructure we get a LOT of hits all referring to SOFTWARE infrastructure, which I take as a good indicator of where MS is headed, but of course that doesn't give us a 100% accurate prediction of the future, so we'll see...

Yup, we'll just have to wait and see... (as things can change last minute i.e surface mini) unless you happen to have a crystal ball somewhere that you're not telling us about :winktongue:.
 

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