04-30-2014 03:34 PM
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  1. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    So it's come to this....

    I've been a fan of the Surface RT/2 from day 1. I could see the greater potential for the Windows RT-based Surfaces than the Surface Pro. I was excited to pick up a Surface RT/Touch Cover combo for the screaming deal of $199 last year. I recently traded it in for a Surface 2. Great performance, terrible stability and reliability.

    I'm quite familiar with the growing pains of any new device, and against my better judgment I went with a Surface 2 knowing that Microsoft rushed it to market and has been playing catch-up (with the software) ever since.

    Every update causes something to break. The only solution seems to be to refresh or if that doesn't work to restore. Battery drain during connected standby, inability to wake up with TypeCover attached, TypeCover unresponsive when it DOES wake up, no audio when attached to HDMI, etc. the list of system bugs is just as long for Windows RT as it is for desktop Windows. With each update from Microsoft, I end up having to re-address a bug that was reintroduced that was not fixed. Microsoft's monthly update cycle is not acceptable to me... not when there are so many issues to be resolved.

    The Surface hardware is capable of doing things that most other tablets are not. But ironically it seems like it is those Surface-exclusive elements where the Surface is most unreliable.

    I've had a variety of meetings where I was relying on the Surface... it failed each and every time (for one reason or another). Thankfully I had the foresight to bring along my Windows notebook. I have another meeting tonight and was planning to use it... one last chance. In preparation, I found that the Surface again would not wake up.... I had to try repeatedly to power it off and once powered off... power it back up. (My troubleshooting experience tells me that it is software related, not a hardware issue. Each and every issue that I've encountered was as a result of an update.)

    That was the last straw. I'm going to pack it up and put it in the cabinet that I affectionately refer to as "the island of misfit toys" where the rest of my disappointing electronic gadgets sit.

    My intention in posting this was NOT to convince anyone to think differently about their Surface. But maybe provide some moral support for those who are also dealing with these issues. For everyone else, thank you for your patience.

    I'm giving some serious thought to picking up an Asus T100. The 64GB model w/keyboard for $379 seems like a decent deal. It isn't "premium hardware" like the Surface, but what I really need is reliability and dependability.

    Links to issues/bugs:
    Screen doesn't wake up on resume
    No Audio via HDMI


    Last edited by WillysJeepMan; 04-25-2014 at 05:04 PM. Reason: adding links to threads dealing with issues
    04-25-2014 02:59 PM
  2. rdubmu's Avatar
    I know this is a different device but my Surface Pro has none of the issues you have stated :)

    Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk
    04-25-2014 03:27 PM
  3. rebornempowered's Avatar
    I am planning to buy a Surface 2 next week. Is anyone else having similar issues to this? I had a Surface RT (loved it) but the screen busted. I have thought about getting a T100 but the only x86 software I will run on it really would probably not run very well (Logos 5). Plus, I already have a $100 type keyboard for Surface that I like and I am not a big fan of the T100's keyboard.

    I am quite conflicted. I would like to get a Surface Pro 2 but my budget isn't that big. :(
    04-25-2014 03:35 PM
  4. PanWorks's Avatar
    I am planning to buy a Surface 2 next week. Is anyone else having similar issues to this?(
    I purchased my Surface 2 this past weekend. I haven't experienced any deal-breaking bugs yet, but I have seen a few odd behaviors (e.g. unlocking to the full app list for no reason). I have a TypeCover 2, but I remember that there were some early problems with second-generation Surface tablets and first-generation Type Covers. This might be related to some of the issues that WillysJeepMan mentioned.
    04-25-2014 04:11 PM
  5. kristalsoldier's Avatar
    I am planning to buy a Surface 2 next week. Is anyone else having similar issues to this? I had a Surface RT (loved it) but the screen busted. I have thought about getting a T100 but the only x86 software I will run on it really would probably not run very well (Logos 5). Plus, I already have a $100 type keyboard for Surface that I like and I am not a big fan of the T100's keyboard.

    I am quite conflicted. I would like to get a Surface Pro 2 but my budget isn't that big. :(
    Nope. I have had the Surface RT and have been using the Surface 2 since virtually it was released. I can't say that I have faced anything like this - at least not till now. But I do feel that the battery life - especially when surfing the web.
    04-25-2014 04:15 PM
  6. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    I am planning to buy a Surface 2 next week. Is anyone else having similar issues to this? I had a Surface RT (loved it) but the screen busted. I have thought about getting a T100 but the only x86 software I will run on it really would probably not run very well (Logos 5). Plus, I already have a $100 type keyboard for Surface that I like and I am not a big fan of the T100's keyboard.

    I am quite conflicted. I would like to get a Surface Pro 2 but my budget isn't that big. :(
    Interestingly enough, the one piece of x86 software that I would look forward to running on the T100 is e-Sword v.8.x. I also have Logos 5. The RT version of Logos 5 has only a fraction of the functionality of the Windows, OSX, and iOS versions. Very disappointing... no TOC support, no search, no notes... Logos on RT is nothing more than a limited-function reader. :(

    I have a TypeCover2 which is terrific, and the thing that is keeping me from just trading the Surface 2 in. I'll just hold onto both with the hopes that Microsoft straightens things out.

    If I do get the T100, I'll test it out with Logos 5 and report back.


    I purchased my Surface 2 this past weekend. I haven't experienced any deal-breaking bugs yet, but I have seen a few odd behaviors (e.g. unlocking to the full app list for no reason). I have a TypeCover 2, but I remember that there were some early problems with second-generation Surface tablets and first-generation Type Covers. This might be related to some of the issues that WillysJeepMan mentioned. If you have a first-generation Type Cover, I'd be careful with a Surface 2.
    Sorry, I should've been more specific... I have a purple TypeCover 2.
    04-25-2014 04:16 PM
  7. rebornempowered's Avatar
    I found a 64 GB RT for cheaper than fixing the screen on my 32 GB RT so I got that instead of a Surface 2. I really only need it for Word, OneNote, and the occasional game or three. I am going to use the money I saved for a student copy of Windows 8 and a 120 GB SSD for my laptop and still come out $150 ahead of buying the Surface 2. I get what I need with the RT and will get an improved experience for Logos 5 on my laptop which I use in my office.

    ​Thanks for the replies.
    04-25-2014 05:25 PM
  8. Jon4248's Avatar
    So it's come to this....

    I've been a fan of the Surface RT/2 from day 1. I could see the greater potential for the Windows RT-based Surfaces than the Surface Pro. I was excited to pick up a Surface RT/Touch Cover combo for the screaming deal of $199 last year. I recently traded it in for a Surface 2. Great performance, terrible stability and reliability.

    I'm quite familiar with the growing pains of any new device, and against my better judgment I went with a Surface 2 knowing that Microsoft rushed it to market and has been playing catch-up (with the software) ever since.

    Every update causes something to break. The only solution seems to be to refresh or if that doesn't work to restore. Battery drain during connected standby, inability to wake up with TypeCover attached, TypeCover unresponsive when it DOES wake up, no audio when attached to HDMI, etc. the list of system bugs is just as long for Windows RT as it is for desktop Windows. With each update from Microsoft, I end up having to re-address a bug that was reintroduced that was not fixed. Microsoft's monthly update cycle is not acceptable to me... not when there are so many issues to be resolved.

    The Surface hardware is capable of doing things that most other tablets are not. But ironically it seems like it is those Surface-exclusive elements where the Surface is most unreliable.

    I've had a variety of meetings where I was relying on the Surface... it failed each and every time (for one reason or another). Thankfully I had the foresight to bring along my Windows notebook. I have another meeting tonight and was planning to use it... one last chance. In preparation, I found that the Surface again would not wake up.... I had to try repeatedly to power it off and once powered off... power it back up. (My troubleshooting experience tells me that it is software related, not a hardware issue. Each and every issue that I've encountered was as a result of an update.)

    That was the last straw. I'm going to pack it up and put it in the cabinet that I affectionately refer to as "the island of misfit toys" where the rest of my disappointing electronic gadgets sit.

    My intention in posting this was NOT to convince anyone to think differently about their Surface. But maybe provide some moral support for those who are also dealing with these issues. For everyone else, thank you for your patience.

    I'm giving some serious thought to picking up an Asus T100. The 64GB model w/keyboard for $379 seems like a decent deal. It isn't "premium hardware" like the Surface, but what I really need is reliability and dependability.

    Links to issues/bugs:
    Screen doesn't wake up on resume
    No Audio via HDMI


    I had stability and driver problems, then I installed Windows 8.1 RT RTM, now my surface 2 is nice and stable. Before putting it away maybe try installing Windows 8.1 RT RTM.
    04-25-2014 06:04 PM
  9. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    I had stability and driver problems, then I installed Windows 8.1 RT RTM, now my surface 2 is nice and stable. Before putting it away maybe try installing Windows 8.1 RT RTM.
    Thanks for the suggestion. How is Windows 8.1 RT RTM different than Windows RT 8.1 and Windows RT 8.1 Update 1 that was recently released? I'm currently running Windows RT 8.1 Update 1.
    04-25-2014 06:12 PM
  10. Cobb's Avatar
    I cant say I feel your pain, but my ownership has been disappointing. Shame I got 125 off list price and another 100 in accessories from ebay. My type cover refurbished was 39 bucks with free shipping and it came in the original box. I just got tired of my old laptop acting up and using the 4 inch screen of my ipod touch.

    Having said that my previous tablet was a nexus 7 32 gb gen 1. Having owned and used apple ios products it was different. Too different. All the software was buggy, required you to purchase and jelly bean has its problems. It would need to reboot to relink with my blue tooth keyboard. After a few days in stand by it wouldnt connect to the internet. A reboot was needed. That issue and the shareware/freeware like apps reminded and disappointed me too much like my experience in windows. Sold it.

    Ironically none of these problems with my ipod touch 1 or 4. The 4 stays linked to my bluetooth keyboard and I havent rebooted it in 6 months. I let it time out and go to sleep. I click a button to turn it on.
    04-25-2014 07:05 PM
  11. onlysublime's Avatar
    I have no experience with Surface 2.

    But I do have the original Surface RT. you get the Surface RT, knowing what it is good for: Microsoft Office with a great form factor/screen.

    it's my daily driver for my work. It's compact, great keyboard, battery lasts a long time, etc. I also have an Asus Transformer T100 with full Windows 8.1. But for what I need, the Surface RT is better. The screen is a little bigger, the screen is a lot brighter. The speed is a little less but you don't notice it while using Office or when using Metro apps. The battery pretty much lasts all day. I use an Excel spreadsheet to keep track of patients and clients and my daily workflow. I use Word extensively. Sometimes I do PowerPoint presentations. The built-in reader app is great for page flipping through PDFs. If I'm doing the meeting minutes, I can snap the sound recorder to the side and type the minutes in Word on the other side. 3 other coworkers picked up the original Surface RT because they saw what I was doing with mine (and the rock bottom pricing for the original helped out too). I warned them that Surface RT is not full Windows but they liked what I showed them and they didn't need full Windows.

    I have both the T100 and the Surface RT. Yes, the T100 is cool because it's full Windows. And it's light in the tablet mode (when there's no keyboard dock attached).

    But I use the Surface RT far more especially for work. The keyboard for the T100 is way too small to type for extended periods (tiny netbook keys). The screen is not bright even at the highest settings (and pales compared to the Surface). The tablet in the dock will tip over regularly because all the weight is in the tablet, not in the keyboard. The trackpad is horrible (so is the Surface trackpad). The dock is just cumbersome. When you have the surface in hand, like when you're standing, it's really easy to take off the keyboard and put it away. Or you can wrap it around to the other side. it's really hard to take off the keyboard on the T100 midair. I always have to use two hands to separate the tablet and the keyboard dock with the T100 and it has to be on the table to do so. And it doesn't store away easily like Surface keyboard which is more portable. The USB port on the T100 is in the dock which is really inconvenient because every time I need to use the USB port, I have to dock it. Sure, you can get a microUSB to USB adapter but that's another dongle to worry about.

    And while the bang for your buck is great with the T100, the build quality is really inconsistent. We bought 10 of the machines as Christmas gifts as rewards to employees. Two of them were DOA and had to be exchanged. Another one of them, the user got the power button stuck under the lip of the surrounding case and we had to use a box cutter blade to dig the button out from edge. Three of them stopped using the device because they didn't like the dock, the tiny keyboard, or the screen. It's a great value for the price for a full Windows machine but they really cut corners.

    The software I would've loved to use on the Surface but can't (like Acrobat) don't run well enough on the Asus either and the screen on the Asus is smaller than the Surface. It's weird but the tiny difference between the Surface screen and the Asus screen is noticeable to the eyeball. Granted, the Asus is a little faster but in real-world usage, it's not a huge difference especially if your main goal is Office work.

    The one area where I felt a difference and a noticeable advantage for the Asus is web browsing. I really don't like web browsing on the Surface. It just feels sluggish. But the Metro apps ran well. And Office ran well.
    04-26-2014 12:24 AM
  12. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    But I use the Surface RT far more especially for work. The keyboard for the T100 is way too small to type for extended periods (tiny netbook keys).
    The Surface RT/2 is 10.6 inches wide. The T100 is 10.4 inches wide. The keyboard for both are the same width as their respective devices. How can a .2" difference in width make the T100 keyboard way too small for typing?

    The trackpad is horrible (so is the Surface trackpad).

    Yes, I've given up on any tablet keyboard having a usable trackpad. The trackpad on the TypeCover2 is horrible.

    As for the other issues you mention, I'm aware of them. I know that the Asus is a budget device. And while there may be some build quality issues (easily returnable) it sounds like if you get a good one, it will work. I know that no Windows-based tablet will be as trouble-free as an iPad. But I DO expect it to work on a regular and consistent basis. The Surface 2 is a premium device that requires as much pampering as an exotic European sportscar.
    04-26-2014 01:04 AM
  13. Paolo Cardelli's Avatar
    I only have the HDMI Audio out problem left (and it's a driver problem, not OS one).
    To manually fix it I open the Audio Properties after I plug HDMI into my TV, and audio switches correctly. Quite annoying, I know, but I can live with it for now until fixed with the next batch of drivers.

    Other than that, I have no problems at all with my Surface 2: always snappy, super smooth and reliable both for Home and Work.

    My suggestions for a rock-solid experience:

    1) Immediately after buying a Surface 2, my advice is to create an USB Recovery drive, and do a Full Restore booting from there (all major errors, like GPU and Refresh bug, are immediately fixed by doing this);
    2) Immediately update to 8.1.1 directly downloading/installing ONLY the two packages of Update 1: *442 first, and then *355 second, and reboot. Only after that reboot installing any other updates too, and reboot again.

    Just those two steps should ensure a solid reliability, no SoD or resume crash, and no problem at all.
    If instead your EventLog will persist with SoDs or GPU/Display crashes, it means you Surface 2 has a faulty Tegra 4 inside and needs to be replaced...


    EDIT: another temporary fix for the automatic switch of HDMI Audio is to go to Audio options, and Disabling "Audio Enanchments" of Tegra Speakers, under Advanced tab (is the last checkbox on the bottom of the page).
    Last edited by Paolo Cardelli; 04-26-2014 at 07:51 AM.
    04-26-2014 05:58 AM
  14. onlysublime's Avatar
    The Surface RT/2 is 10.6 inches wide. The T100 is 10.4 inches wide. The keyboard for both are the same width as their respective devices. How can a .2" difference in width make the T100 keyboard way too small for typing?
    I'll take pictures so you know. The actual size of the keys are very different between the 2 keyboards. It's not the overall width of the entire keyboard but the individual keys themselves. No one I know likes the tiny keys of the T100. You can speed type on the Type Cover 2. You can't on the T100 keyboard. Not even the petite girls can speed type on the T100 keyboard. Part of the problem is the stiffness of the keys as well.

    As for the size of the screen, even to the eyeball, you'll notice the difference in brightness and size. Heck, most people can notice the different between a 3.7" screen and a 4.0" screen on the phones.

    It's easy to say the T100 is a good device looking at the specs. Once you start using it, you'll change your mind.

    I own both devices myself. It's very easy for me to compare them. I've bought 10 T100's so it's very easy for me to get first-hand accounts from each of the employees/friends. Not saying the T100 is terrible. But you do get what you pay for. for what the T100 costs, you get a lot of bang for your buck.
    04-26-2014 06:22 AM
  15. kristalsoldier's Avatar
    I only have the HDMI Audio out problem left (and it's a driver problem, not OS one).
    To manually fix it I open the Audio Properties after I plug HDMI into my TV, and audio switches correctly. Quite annoying, I know, but I can live with it for now until fixed with the next batch of drivers.

    Other than that, I have no problems at all with my Surface 2: always snappy, super smooth and reliable both for Home and Work.

    My suggestions for a rock-solid experience:

    1) Immediately after buying a Surface 2, my advice is to create an USB Recovery drive, and do a Full Restore booting from there (all major errors, like GPU and Refresh bug, are immediately fixed by doing this);
    2) Immediately update to 8.1.1 directly downloading/installing ONLY the two packages of Update 1: *443 first, and then *355 second, and reboot. Only after that reboot installing any other updates too, and reboot again.

    Just those two steps should ensure a solid reliability, no SoD or resume crash, and no problem at all.
    If instead your EventLog will persist with SoDs or GPU/Display crashes, it means you Surface 2 has a faulty Tegra 4 inside and needs to be replaced...


    EDIT: another temporary fix for the automatic switch of HDMI Audio is to go to Audio options, and Disabling "Audio Enanchments" of Tegra Speakers, under Advanced tab (is the last checkbox on the bottom of the page).
    My experience with the Surface 2 has also been solid (well, aside from some initial hiccups). But things have stabilized a lot now and it performs very well. The only thing that I remain dissatisfied with is the battery life - especially when surfing. Any pointers about that. Using the device on a daily basis with (Word + OneDrive + Mail + Calendar + Browser (2-3 tabs active)) seems to give me not more than 6 hours of battery life. Brightness at 40% (adaptive brightness on), USB-driven mouse (MS Arc) always on (for some reason, I suspect this may be the source of the problem though I have no proof - when I say always on, I mean I leave the micro USB thing in the Surface all the time regardless of whether or not I am using the mouse), WIFI on all the time, BT off and aside from the apps mentioned about not much else active and syncing. Earlier, I used to get around 8-9 hours. Something changed and I don't know what that is!
    04-26-2014 06:48 AM
  16. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    I only have the HDMI Audio out problem left (and it's a driver problem, not OS one).
    To manually fix it I open the Audio Properties after I plug HDMI into my TV, and audio switches correctly. Quite annoying, I know, but I can live with it for now until fixed with the next batch of drivers.

    Other than that, I have no problems at all with my Surface 2: always snappy, super smooth and reliable both for Home and Work.

    My suggestions for a rock-solid experience:

    1) Immediately after buying a Surface 2, my advice is to create an USB Recovery drive, and do a Full Restore booting from there (all major errors, like GPU and Refresh bug, are immediately fixed by doing this);
    2) Immediately update to 8.1.1 directly downloading/installing ONLY the two packages of Update 1: *442 first, and then *355 second, and reboot. Only after that reboot installing any other updates too, and reboot again.

    Just those two steps should ensure a solid reliability, no SoD or resume crash, and no problem at all.
    If instead your EventLog will persist with SoDs or GPU/Display crashes, it means you Surface 2 has a faulty Tegra 4 inside and needs to be replaced...


    EDIT: another temporary fix for the automatic switch of HDMI Audio is to go to Audio options, and Disabling "Audio Enanchments" of Tegra Speakers, under Advanced tab (is the last checkbox on the bottom of the page).
    I appreciate your response but you know that I'm aware of these workarounds. Take a moment to read what you wrote. Are these things that you expect to do with a tablet? Digging through event logs, manually switching settings, regularly refreshing the operating system because an update had an issue?

    You mention immediately updating to 8.1.1 directly and then manually installing specific updates. That wasn't knowledge that Microsoft made widely available but something that you, myself, and others had to stumble and fumble through to discover BECAUSE OF THE ERRORS THAT WE ENCOUNTERED. I think that you have an overly optimistic remembrance of your Surface ownership experience.

    You probably love to tinker with your devices. I do too. But there are some devices that I simply need to work... where I don't want to tinker, coddle, teardown, and rebuild. A tablet is one that I just expect to work.

    Microsoft has prevented users from disabling updates to the Surface. So while it is all well and good to discover how to get a Surface working properly and reliably, that is all gone when Microsoft pushes the next update.

    All that to say, while your response attempts to defend the Surface it actually supports my claim that the Surface is too flakey for me to rely upon. Again that's for me. Keep in mind that this is coming from a fan of the Surface RT/2.


    I'll take pictures so you know. The actual size of the keys are very different between the 2 keyboards. It's not the overall width of the entire keyboard but the individual keys themselves. No one I know likes the tiny keys of the T100. You can speed type on the Type Cover 2. You can't on the T100 keyboard. Not even the petite girls can speed type on the T100 keyboard. Part of the problem is the stiffness of the keys as well.

    As for the size of the screen, even to the eyeball, you'll notice the difference in brightness and size. Heck, most people can notice the different between a 3.7" screen and a 4.0" screen on the phones.

    It's easy to say the T100 is a good device looking at the specs. Once you start using it, you'll change your mind.

    I own both devices myself. It's very easy for me to compare them. I've bought 10 T100's so it's very easy for me to get first-hand accounts from each of the employees/friends. Not saying the T100 is terrible. But you do get what you pay for. for what the T100 costs, you get a lot of bang for your buck.
    Thank you for the offer of taking pictures of the devices. I'm well aware of the differences. This is a situation where different people have different experiences. I have a Logitech Ultrathin keyboard cover for my iPad 4. Since the iPad 4 is 4:3, it is significantly narrower in landscape mode than the Surface and the T100. Although I can type 100% of my typing speed on the Surface TypeCover2, I can type about 80% on the Logitech. I would expect to reach about 90% of typing speed on the T100. For me as a touch typist, it isn't necessarily key size that matters but spacing of the keys.

    I do appreciate your feedback on actual ownership of the T100. It has been very helpful for me. It has given me reason to pause.

    My desire is that Microsoft would get their act together with regard to the Surface RT/2 and pay some serious attention to the ownership experience. It's irritating to see them once again have a superior offering but fall short in the fit and finish of ownership. Maybe I'm just experiencing flashbacks of the Zune.
    04-26-2014 09:47 AM
  17. Paolo Cardelli's Avatar
    I appreciate your response but you know that I'm aware of these workarounds. Take a moment to read what you wrote. Are these things that you expect to do with a tablet? Digging through event logs, manually switching settings, regularly refreshing the operating system because an update had an issue?

    You mention immediately updating to 8.1.1 directly and then manually installing specific updates. That wasn't knowledge that Microsoft made widely available but something that you, myself, and others had to stumble and fumble through to discover BECAUSE OF THE ERRORS THAT WE ENCOUNTERED. I think that you have an overly optimistic remembrance of your Surface ownership experience.

    You probably love to tinker with your devices. I do too. But there are some devices that I simply need to work... where I don't want to tinker, coddle, teardown, and rebuild. A tablet is one that I just expect to work.

    Microsoft has prevented users from disabling updates to the Surface. So while it is all well and good to discover how to get a Surface working properly and reliably, that is all gone when Microsoft pushes the next update.

    All that to say, while your response attempts to defend the Surface it actually supports my claim that the Surface is too flakey for me to rely upon. Again that's for me. Keep in mind that this is coming from a fan of the Surface RT/2.



    Thank you for the offer of taking pictures of the devices. I'm well aware of the differences. This is a situation where different people have different experiences. I have a Logitech Ultrathin keyboard cover for my iPad 4. Since the iPad 4 is 4:3, it is significantly narrower in landscape mode than the Surface and the T100. Although I can type 100% of my typing speed on the Surface TypeCover2, I can type about 80% on the Logitech. I would expect to reach about 90% of typing speed on the T100. For me as a touch typist, it isn't necessarily key size that matters but spacing of the keys.

    I do appreciate your feedback on actual ownership of the T100. It has been very helpful for me. It has given me reason to pause.

    My desire is that Microsoft would get their act together with regard to the Surface RT/2 and pay some serious attention to the ownership experience. It's irritating to see them once again have a superior offering but fall short in the fit and finish of ownership. Maybe I'm just experiencing flashbacks of the Zune.
    No device is perfect (both hardware and software wise) and no device is ready for everybody needs just right out of the box, neither a tablet nor a smartphone, even the Apple ones.
    I do agree that Surface 2 in this specific case had "too much" and "too much widespread" problems at launch (mainly hardware, and Tegra 4 related) compared to other devices, but even Apple iPad do not work like expected if not after a lot of "thinkering" and tweaking too, they could be just more user friendly and integrated in prettier Settings Panel, but it's basically the same.
    iOS7 (for example) bogged the whole OS down, and transformed all 2010 (and past) Apple devices from decent, already full featured and snappy machine to unusable bricks, full of bugs, lag and problem even today.
    That, at least, out of the box: it's thanks to the "thinkering" that this could be partially fixed, tweaking settings and disabling useless things.

    Also I don't even want to do Android example because almost any device running any version of that OS is impossible to deal with, without some basic-to-major "thinkering" and customizing of the OS and apps themselves...

    In the case of Windows RT, and Surface 2, it took some months for Microsoft (and NVIDIA) to fix a lot of compatibility issues, and this is entirely true.
    But today, owning a (full functioning, and not faulty -> for those ones there's nothing to do if not replace the device) Surface 2, even by a fully unaware average dude who never ear the word "tweak", it ensure a always fast, always fluid, always secure and intuitive experience even out of the box with 8.1.1, I think in a better way even of the iPad experience: very very limited in software and hardware capabilities and, now with iOS7, still very cluttered and unconfortable.

    Sure, out-of-the box, Surface 2 can surely perform better, but what I think is that's basically true for any IT device out there, and S2 is perfectly comparable, more or less.
    The main difference, tho, is that Surface 2 is not like anything else out there, and it can perform and do so much more with the same (if not better) form factor.
    04-26-2014 11:37 AM
  18. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    No device is perfect (both hardware and software wise) and no device is ready for everybody needs just right out of the box, neither a tablet nor a smartphone, even the Apple ones.
    I do agree that Surface 2 in this specific case had "too much" and "too much widespread" problems at launch (mainly hardware, and Tegra 4 related) compared to other devices, but even Apple iPad do not work like expected if not after a lot of "thinkering" and tweaking too, they could be just more user friendly and integrated in prettier Settings Panel, but it's basically the same.
    iOS7 (for example) bogged the whole OS down, and transformed all 2010 (and past) Apple devices from decent, already full featured and snappy machine to unusable bricks, full of bugs, lag and problem even today.
    That, at least, out of the box: it's thanks to the "thinkering" that this could be partially fixed, tweaking settings and disabling useless things.
    You must have a different definition of tinkering than most people do. What exactly was this "lot of tinkering and tweaking" required to get the iPad to work as expected? iOS is a closed operating system. The only access to settings is just that... through Settings. There are no event logs to sift through, no "disk cleanup" to perform, no files to manually delete (like deleting C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution\Downloads)to reduce the bloat. The "cost" of such a low maintenance OS is in the lack of flexibility and functionality. That's the trade-off.

    If you believe that the manual maintenance required to keep the Surface running is the same as adjusting some settings in iOS Settings then I really don't know what to tell you... because they are so dramatically different that it is painfully obvious that they are dramatically different.

    My iPad 4 was running iOS 6.1.3 until iOS 7.1. I had the choice of if/when I decided to upgrade the operating system. I didn't experience the headaches of the early adopters who immediately jumped into 7.0. Microsoft doesn't give me that choice with the Surface. Upgrades are forced.




    Also I don't even want to do Android example because almost any device running any version of that OS is impossible to deal with, without some basic-to-major "thinkering" and customizing of the OS and apps themselves...

    In the case of Windows RT, and Surface 2, it took some months for Microsoft (and NVIDIA) to fix a lot of compatibility issues, and this is entirely true.
    But today, owning a (full functioning, and not faulty -> for those ones there's nothing to do if not replace the device) Surface 2, even by a fully unaware average dude who never ear the word "tweak", it ensure a always fast, always fluid, always secure and intuitive experience even out of the box with 8.1.1, I think in a better way even of the iPad experience: very very limited in software and hardware capabilities and, now with iOS7, still very cluttered and unconfortable.

    Sure, out-of-the box, Surface 2 can surely perform better, but what I think is that's basically true for any IT device out there, and S2 is perfectly comparable, more or less.
    The main difference, tho, is that Surface 2 is not like anything else out there, and it can perform and do so much more with the same (if not better) form factor.
    Your comments are drifting from my original claim that the Surface is too unreliable to be relied upon. You seem to have ignored all of the time that I, you, and others have spent identifying workarounds to problems. You deliberately ignored my statement regarding Microsoft forcing updates to the Surface. What about that?

    You're a Surface fanatic (in the good sense of that term). I get that. It's not my intent to get you to think differently about the Surface. But you have failed to address the objective issues that I raised. Instead you focused on the subjective ones. For example, "iOS 7 being uncomfortable" is subjective and has no place in this discussion.

    I don't get emotionally attached to any hardware. It can either be adjusted to be useful or it can't. There are some that I like to play around in like a sandbox, while others need to be utilitarian. No hardware is a perfect fit. I can either adjust it and accept the limitations or not. FOR ME, the Surface is too unreliable to be considered a TOOL... a TOY, yes... but not as a tool to be relied upon when I simply need it to turn on and be used.
    04-26-2014 12:21 PM
  19. Paolo Cardelli's Avatar
    You must have a different definition of tinkering than most people do. What exactly was this "lot of tinkering and tweaking" required to get the iPad to work as expected? iOS is a closed operating system. The only access to settings is just that... through Settings. There are no event logs to sift through, no "disk cleanup" to perform, no files to manually delete (like deleting C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution\Downloads)to reduce the bloat. The "cost" of such a low maintenance OS is in the lack of flexibility and functionality. That's the trade-off.

    If you believe that the manual maintenance required to keep the Surface running is the same as adjusting some settings in iOS Settings then I really don't know what to tell you... because they are so dramatically different that it is painfully obvious that they are dramatically different.

    My iPad 4 was running iOS 6.1.3 until iOS 7.1. I had the choice of if/when I decided to upgrade the operating system. I didn't experience the headaches of the early adopters who immediately jumped into 7.0. Microsoft doesn't give me that choice with the Surface. Upgrades are forced.





    Your comments are drifting from my original claim that the Surface is too unreliable to be relied upon. You seem to have ignored all of the time that I, you, and others have spent identifying workarounds to problems. You deliberately ignored my statement regarding Microsoft forcing updates to the Surface. What about that?

    You're a Surface fanatic (in the good sense of that term). I get that. It's not my intent to get you to think differently about the Surface. But you have failed to address the objective issues that I raised. Instead you focused on the subjective ones. For example, "iOS 7 being uncomfortable" is subjective and has no place in this discussion.

    I don't get emotionally attached to any hardware. It can either be adjusted to be useful or it can't. There are some that I like to play around in like a sandbox, while others need to be utilitarian. No hardware is a perfect fit. I can either adjust it and accept the limitations or not. FOR ME, the Surface is too unreliable to be considered a TOOL... a TOY, yes... but not as a tool to be relied upon when I simply need it to turn on and be used.
    Like I said, you don't need to apply any tweak to Surface to function properly, and any Windows Update from the beginning so far (and I can state it since I have a Surface RT too since its launch) always fixed, improved, added and made things faster than before the updates (as opposite to the iOS philosophy, and I can state this too considered I am an iPhone 4 owner too. In fact they basically made things slower on older model to force you upgrade your phone more often then you should).

    Surface RT had problems at launch.
    Surface 2 had even more problems at launch (and maybe even more compared to an iPad launch). Those are facts, and I know that.

    But most of them are already a thing of the past with latest WUs (even the huge "drivers not updating" oddity has been fixed).
    In fact, and to directly respond on your concern about stability and reliability: I have no Sleep of Deaths, crashes, or display problems since months, even without tweaking or thinkering anything: it is just necessary to keep the device updated, like it should, and like it does automatically in background, even while sleeping in connected standby.
    Without even bother or asking you to do anything.

    It is not necessary to do disk cleanups, to check logs, to erase temp folder. There's an automated scheduler that runs all of this (and more) at night while in standby, or when idle.
    Average people do not have to do nothing, so. In an opposite way like you describe it to be. I'm sorry, but that's objective too.

    But, if you want to squeeze every bit of performance from it, if you want to customize it like you really want, if you want an extra layer of security and get rid of a lot of web annoyance, enthusiast owners can do that too.
    On Apple products you can't.

    Surface is not only meant to be for average consumers, but for enthusiast and real productivity too.
    If you don't want to care about anything and just use it, you can and it's capable of. If you want to thinker and tweak every single line of the Registry and Services, you can do that too.
    On Apple you are forced to choose only the first side.

    And considering what a Surface can do that an iPad can't, in conclusion I would think twice what to name a "Toy" and what a "Tool"...
    04-26-2014 02:25 PM
  20. hagjohn's Avatar
    I had some issues early on but I haven't had any issues lately with my Surface 2
    04-26-2014 07:13 PM
  21. onlysublime's Avatar
    alright, finally had time to take pictures...

    2q0k5zd.jpg

    here's the Surface keyboard compared to an HTPC keyboard. You'll notice the size of the keys are about equal (in fact, the Surface keys are a little bigger; however, the HTPC keyboard has gaps so it's less likely to make an error; if your finger is off on the Surface, you can accidentally hit 2 keys since they're flush but they're so big it's hard to miss)

    1zl3w35.jpg

    You can go full speed on a Surface keyboard. The keys have good spring, they're large keys, they're backlit, etc.

    3164740.jpg

    2w2eirl.jpg

    16m86f8.jpg

    here's the tiny keys of the T100. netbook sized keys. there's virtually no chance of fast touch typing on this keyboard. it's for the hunt and peckers or children. Not only are the keys tiny, the resistance is quite high and you have to expend more energy just to type. And because you have to strike harder to get the keys to register, combined with the fact that they're tiny, the error rate is really high. I'm not sure the picture tells the story. My fingers are actually barely able to stay on the key and actually often hang off the lower edge. So when you're trying to type 80-110 WPM (my speed range, after errors are accounted for), it drives you mad how little room for error there is on this keyboard. A lot of the employees we bought the T100 for complained all the time about the keyboard. They ended up hooking a traditional USB keyboard or a bigger Bluetooth keyboard.

    The only horrible keys on the Surface keyboard are the arrow keys. They're also tiny and they're unresponsive to me (well, unresponsive on my Surface RT). Again, the only area I give the T100 a win is the faster web browsing. For my workflow, the original Surface RT wins. Again, I've never used the Surface 2 or even touched one. For the desktop apps that I would use on a work computer, I can't use them on the T100 either (Photoshop, Premiere, and Acrobat).

    There are some things I wish I had with the RT: more browser options (ahem, Firefox...), desktop programs like Ditto (a clipboard manager), MediaInfo, etc. I would love some video players that could do everything (MKV, etc.). But for a work machine, my Surface RT is great (and like I said earlier, 3 of my coworkers picked up the original Surface RT because it was dirt cheap, came with Office 2013 with great touch support, and was very versatile within a work environment (love CamCard!!!)). It's great for presentations as well, whether you're 1-on-1 flipping through a PDF or whether you're doing an entire room and mirroring the Surface with a projector and doing PDFs or PowerPoints.
    04-26-2014 11:53 PM
  22. conorn's Avatar
    Just my few thoughts. My first S2 was plagued with issues - SoDs, disk errors, poor battery life, lock-screen freeze, driver nonsense. Being a tinkerer and IT pro I was happy enough to see what could be done. Eventually I did exchange the device. This one is much improved. I've only had one SoD-type event. I do have the early hardware failure, showing in Reliability Report, relating to the video device and associated errors and warnings - but SoDs seem under control now. Remaining issue is the phantom touches - hopefully that will be addressed soon. But overall, this device I can use reliably.

    That said I still have a crazy amount of warnings in the event log. I know some say that isn't important and I pay too much attention to the logs ( I had one MS support tell me that the event viewer was only for developers!), but a warning is just that - a warning of something. I have a laptop and a desktop also running Windows 8.1 and they have nothing like the number of reports in their logs. The S2 hardware and drivers are still not up to scratch. Connected standby is, I think, the main culprit. MS need to do more work here.

    WillysJeepMan - before you cast away your S2 I'd at least try an exchange device.

    Finally, comparing the S2 to an iPad is not really the point, the S2 should stand on it own reputation. For its price-point it should work more reliably out of the box. This isn't some 99 Android tablet. It's a premium device from one of the worlds largest companies.
    04-28-2014 08:15 AM
  23. kristalsoldier's Avatar
    I have been following this thread for sometime now. I can't seem to relate to the majority of problems that are being reported, which does not mean that the problems don't exist. It's just that I have not faced them. If I remember correctly, I did some tweaking for battery expenditure - I don't remember what I did though I do recall interacting with Paolo on this matter. Recently, I started obsessing about power consumption again. It turns out that the culprit was a USB Mouse (the MS Arch Mouse without Bluetooth) that I was using. Having removed the USB receiver, the matter has settled down and my Surface is back to its normal battery life.

    The problem that I do have is that sometimes I feel frustrated that some applications that I would like are not available on the RT platform. Oh...and one other thing - having split a cup of coffee on my Type Cover 2, I had to buy a new one and it was expensive!!!!

    But, I have not really have experienced any SoD issues, disc errors, screen freezes etc. At least not yet!!!
    04-28-2014 08:29 AM
  24. Matt J's Avatar
    Pretty much the only issue I have with my Surface 2 is the inability to sync Google Calendar with the calendar app. The inability of Windows 8.1 to use the open CalDAV protocol is ridiculous.

    Other than that, I can't think of a single issue that has caused me concern.
    04-28-2014 10:12 AM
  25. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    alright, finally had time to take pictures...

    ...

    here's the Surface keyboard compared to an HTPC keyboard. You'll notice the size of the keys are about equal (in fact, the Surface keys are a little bigger; however, the HTPC keyboard has gaps so it's less likely to make an error; if your finger is off on the Surface, you can accidentally hit 2 keys since they're flush but they're so big it's hard to miss)

    ...

    You can go full speed on a Surface keyboard. The keys have good spring, they're large keys, they're backlit, etc.

    ...

    ...

    ...

    here's the tiny keys of the T100. netbook sized keys. there's virtually no chance of fast touch typing on this keyboard. it's for the hunt and peckers or children. Not only are the keys tiny, the resistance is quite high and you have to expend more energy just to type. And because you have to strike harder to get the keys to register, combined with the fact that they're tiny, the error rate is really high. I'm not sure the picture tells the story. My fingers are actually barely able to stay on the key and actually often hang off the lower edge. So when you're trying to type 80-110 WPM (my speed range, after errors are accounted for), it drives you mad how little room for error there is on this keyboard. A lot of the employees we bought the T100 for complained all the time about the keyboard. They ended up hooking a traditional USB keyboard or a bigger Bluetooth keyboard.

    The only horrible keys on the Surface keyboard are the arrow keys. They're also tiny and they're unresponsive to me (well, unresponsive on my Surface RT). Again, the only area I give the T100 a win is the faster web browsing. For my workflow, the original Surface RT wins. Again, I've never used the Surface 2 or even touched one. For the desktop apps that I would use on a work computer, I can't use them on the T100 either (Photoshop, Premiere, and Acrobat).
    Thank you very much for taking the time to post those photos. I had the opportunity to take a closer look at the T100 in person. Although the keyboard is indeed the same WIDTH as the TypeCover2, the HEIGHT/DEPTH is much shorter. By height/depth I'm referring to the distance from the end of the spacebar to the top of the function key row. That does make it a bit more cramped. Compared to my other mobile keyboards it isn't a dramatic difference however. The greater concern I have is the physical build quality of the T100. I understand that it is a intro level inexpensive device but it doesn't appear to be physically built well. In the end, I think that going to a T100 would be trading the software/OS issues of the Surface 2 for the physical issues of the T100. Software can be fixed with an update (or not), hardware can't.


    There are some things I wish I had with the RT: more browser options (ahem, Firefox...), desktop programs like Ditto (a clipboard manager), MediaInfo, etc. I would love some video players that could do everything (MKV, etc.). But for a work machine, my Surface RT is great (and like I said earlier, 3 of my coworkers picked up the original Surface RT because it was dirt cheap, came with Office 2013 with great touch support, and was very versatile within a work environment (love CamCard!!!)). It's great for presentations as well, whether you're 1-on-1 flipping through a PDF or whether you're doing an entire room and mirroring the Surface with a projector and doing PDFs or PowerPoints.
    Definitely. In a different thread on a different forum I discussing how I use my Surface 2, which includes 1-on-1 presentations and projector/big screen audiences.

    I rarely use my Surface 2 as a tablet. The 16:9 AR is awkward. And so I spent some time considering whether or not an 11" netbook would serve me better than using a hybrid tablet. That could change if a 4:3 tablet running full Windows is produced.
    04-28-2014 11:13 AM
35 12

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