09-12-2014 06:31 AM
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  1. Carine36's Avatar
    Surface Pro 3,The tablet that replaces your computer. Featuring a 12-inch screen, Surface Pro 3 has the power of a laptop in a size feather weight and versatile.Integral foot now offers several positions to allow you to work comfortably in an airplane, at your desk or watching television.
    08-04-2014 01:26 AM
  2. Matt J's Avatar
    You do realise that RT is purely the version for ARM processors, don't you? It already has that limitation. Only things I think you can do on the desktop there involve the Command Prompt and possibly Explorer.
    Not true. RT runs the entire Office 2013 suite, all of the Windows Administrative Tools (defragmenter, resource monitor, task scheduler, etc.), Windows Accessories (calculator, character map, notepad, paint, etc.) Windows Ease of Access (magnifier, narrator, speech recognition, etc.) and Windows System (command prompt, file explorer, task manager, etc.).

    These are not "ARM versions" but native Win 32s running in Windows RT on an ARM processor. Just like Office 2013, Microsoft ALLOWS these to run. Microsoft *could* allow all regular Windows programs to run in RT (like Office 2013) if they wanted to.

    The only thing stopping a Surface RT or Surface 2 from installing and running regular Windows apps is Microsoft not allowing it. They want to keep it a closed system. If Microsoft wanted to allow, say, Photoshop to run on RT, it would be easy to do. There is no technical limitation to it.

    I think RT is the future because it only makes sense that it is. RT devices are "always on". When you get an email on a Surface 2, it will tell you right away. The Pro, Pro 2 and Pro 3 (I believe) go to sleep like regular computers.

    Strategically, MS should start moving applications to the Windows Store and keep optimising RT for performance and battery life.
    Ed Boland likes this.
    08-04-2014 07:24 AM
  3. David P2's Avatar
    Not true. RT runs the entire Office 2013 suite, all of the Windows Administrative Tools (defragmenter, resource monitor, task scheduler, etc.), Windows Accessories (calculator, character map, notepad, paint, etc.) Windows Ease of Access (magnifier, narrator, speech recognition, etc.) and Windows System (command prompt, file explorer, task manager, etc.).

    These are not "ARM versions" but native Win 32s running in Windows RT on an ARM processor. Just like Office 2013, Microsoft ALLOWS these to run. Microsoft *could* allow all regular Windows programs to run in RT (like Office 2013) if they wanted to.

    The only thing stopping a Surface RT or Surface 2 from installing and running regular Windows apps is Microsoft not allowing it. They want to keep it a closed system. If Microsoft wanted to allow, say, Photoshop to run on RT, it would be easy to do. There is no technical limitation to it.

    I think RT is the future because it only makes sense that it is. RT devices are "always on". When you get an email on a Surface 2, it will tell you right away. The Pro, Pro 2 and Pro 3 (I believe) go to sleep like regular computers.

    Strategically, MS should start moving applications to the Windows Store and keep optimising RT for performance and battery life.
    No... it's an entirely different processor architecture. That particular version of Office has been compiled to run on ARM - if the executables are copied to an x86 based system they will refuse to run (and vice versa), unless they have been compiled to be a universal binary, which would enable it to run freely on both. One is CISC based (x86(Intel)) and ARM is RISC based. They are totally different things to deal with. If you want an app to run on any other architecture, it needs to be compiled to do so, or you have to resort to emulation which is a lot slower and not everything will work.

    NT by design is easily portable to other architectures - NT3 through to 4 ran on multiple architectures: x86, PowerPC, MIPS - they all had "native Win32", as you call it, but the executables for each architecture would not physically run under another. Same goes for RT with its ARM based architecture.

    The reason RT devices are "always on" is down to the processor - it can wake up to full speed a lot quicker than an x86 can, and it uses a lot less power to do so.
    08-04-2014 07:37 AM
  4. Matt J's Avatar
    No... it's an entirely different processor architecture. That particular version of Office has been compiled to run on ARM - if the executables are copied to an x86 based system they will refuse to run (and vice versa), unless they have been compiled to be a universal binary, which would enable it to run freely on both. One is CISC based (x86(Intel)) and ARM is RISC based. They are totally different things to deal with. If you want an app to run on any other architecture, it needs to be compiled to do so, or you have to resort to emulation which is a lot slower and not everything will work.

    NT by design is easily portable to other architectures - NT3 through to 4 ran on multiple architectures: x86, PowerPC, MIPS - they all had "native Win32", as you call it, but the executables for each architecture would not physically run under another. Same goes for RT with its ARM based architecture.

    The reason RT devices are "always on" is down to the processor - it can wake up to full speed a lot quicker than an x86 can, and it uses a lot less power to do so.
    Run Full Windows Applications on Your Windows RT Tablet
    Run Full Windows Programs on Windows RT, and Other Bits and Bobs | Gizmodo UK
    Hacker finds way to run desktop applications on Windows RT - Computerworld

    Yes, a recompile would be needed for ARM. I guess the point is that MS could have made this work easily if it wanted to. RT is not as crippled as people think and may end up being the future of Windows.
    08-04-2014 07:50 AM
  5. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    You're making the claim that RT is not dead. Why do you believe that? You are giving reasons why some people believe it is and try to refute that, but you haven't given any reasons to support your position.

    What new devices have been released this year with Windows RT? How many from companies other than Microsoft? What companies have announced devices that will be released that will run Windows RT?

    Let's acknowledge the reality of the situation and deal with that. Technically RT is not dead... and won't be for another 4 years. But it isn't looking like it will sprint to that finish line.

    I'm still a big fan of Windows RT. I bought a Surface RT and then subsequently a Surface 2. I found the greatest deficiency in Windows RT to be that it has the same "heavy" subsystems as Windows x86 which caused it to have a level of complexity that is out of place on a tablet targeted for the "non-Pro". That resulted in less-than-predictable stability. I'm speaking only of my own experiences. My experiences don't invalidate anyone else's to the contrary.
    When MJF asked about the future of Surface on ARM, and whether or not there would be a new Surface at 10", the response was that they were continuing to look at ARM devices of all sizes. So, that's a pretty clear indication that Windows RT isn't dead. Other companies might not make devices with it, but Microsoft seems to be going ahead with it. That should be enough for most people.
    08-04-2014 10:18 AM
  6. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Not true. RT runs the entire Office 2013 suite, all of the Windows Administrative Tools (defragmenter, resource monitor, task scheduler, etc.), Windows Accessories (calculator, character map, notepad, paint, etc.) Windows Ease of Access (magnifier, narrator, speech recognition, etc.) and Windows System (command prompt, file explorer, task manager, etc.).

    These are not "ARM versions" but native Win 32s running in Windows RT on an ARM processor. Just like Office 2013, Microsoft ALLOWS these to run. Microsoft *could* allow all regular Windows programs to run in RT (like Office 2013) if they wanted to.

    The only thing stopping a Surface RT or Surface 2 from installing and running regular Windows apps is Microsoft not allowing it. They want to keep it a closed system. If Microsoft wanted to allow, say, Photoshop to run on RT, it would be easy to do. There is no technical limitation to it.

    I think RT is the future because it only makes sense that it is. RT devices are "always on". When you get an email on a Surface 2, it will tell you right away. The Pro, Pro 2 and Pro 3 (I believe) go to sleep like regular computers.

    Strategically, MS should start moving applications to the Windows Store and keep optimising RT for performance and battery life.
    Windows RT can NOT run Win32 programs. It runs ARM-developed programs. That means that you're limited on what you can run.
    08-04-2014 10:19 AM
  7. Matt J's Avatar
    Windows RT can NOT run Win32 programs. It runs ARM-developed programs. That means that you're limited on what you can run.
    Is Office 2013 not a Win32 program?
    08-04-2014 10:22 AM
  8. David P2's Avatar
    Run Full Windows Applications on Your Windows RT Tablet
    Run Full Windows Programs on Windows RT, and Other Bits and Bobs | Gizmodo UK
    Hacker finds way to run desktop applications on Windows RT - Computerworld

    Yes, a recompile would be needed for ARM. I guess the point is that MS could have made this work easily if it wanted to. RT is not as crippled as people think and may end up being the future of Windows.
    Come back when you can show ways that aren't hacks or workarounds. A normal, general everyday user isn't going to go through that much arsing about just to run an application - they would buy something it's guaranteed to run on without resorting to hacks and trickery.
    08-04-2014 10:25 AM
  9. David P2's Avatar
    Is Office 2013 not a Win32 program?
    It runs a specially compiled version for ARM.
    08-04-2014 10:26 AM
  10. Matt J's Avatar
    Come back when you can show ways that aren't hacks or workarounds. A normal, general everyday user isn't going to go through that much arsing about just to run an application - they would buy something it's guaranteed to run on without resorting to hacks and trickery.
    I agree with you. I guess my point was simply that RT has the power and potential to run all Windows apps, on ARM. Sure, hacks and recompiles are needed, but it is possible for MS to allow it.
    08-04-2014 10:28 AM
  11. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    I agree with you. I guess my point was simply that RT has the power and potential to run all Windows apps, on ARM. Sure, hacks and recompiles are needed, but it is possible for MS to allow it.
    Who is going to recompile all of those applications?
    08-04-2014 10:29 AM
  12. David P2's Avatar
    I agree with you. I guess my point was simply that RT has the power and potential to run all Windows apps, on ARM. Sure, hacks and recompiles are needed, but it is possible for MS to allow it.
    If it's recompiled, then it's native and no hacks are required - that's the whole point of compiling for a specific architecture.
    08-04-2014 10:30 AM
  13. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    It runs a specially compiled version for ARM.
    ​That's why VB Macros won't work, iirc.
    08-04-2014 10:30 AM
  14. Matt J's Avatar
    If it's recompiled, then it's native and no hacks are required - that's the whole point of compiling for a specific architecture.
    So RT isn't any better or worse than "regular" Windows, as long as programs are recompiled, correct?
    08-04-2014 10:31 AM
  15. David P2's Avatar
    So long as it's a Metro app, then yes as those are the only applications you can install on RT. If you want something like iTunes, or Visual Studio, then no it won't work as they aren't Metro apps.
    08-04-2014 10:33 AM
  16. Matt J's Avatar
    So long as it's a Metro app, then yes as those are the only applications you can install on RT. If you want something like iTunes, or Visual Studio, then no it won't work as they aren't Metro apps.
    So in order to get iTunes or Visual Studio to work, a recompile would be needed and the app placed in the Windows Store?
    08-04-2014 10:35 AM
  17. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    So in order to get iTunes or Visual Studio to work, a recompile would be needed and the app placed in the Windows Store?
    ​To work without jailbreaking, yes.
    08-04-2014 10:40 AM
  18. Matt J's Avatar
    ​To work without jailbreaking, yes.
    Thanks! Learned a lot today.
    08-04-2014 10:42 AM
  19. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Thanks! Learned a lot today.
    No problem.

    The best advice I can give, in regards to Windows RT and the Surface RT, is to buy one knowing what it can and can't do. It won't be able to do all of the things that an x86 tablet can do. You'll have a more limited app selection. The upside, of course, comes from a chance to optimize more and a greater security than that of an x86 device. ARM also does connected standby better than x86 at this point.
    08-04-2014 11:03 AM
  20. Matt J's Avatar
    No problem.

    The best advice I can give, in regards to Windows RT and the Surface RT, is to buy one knowing what it can and can't do. It won't be able to do all of the things that an x86 tablet can do. You'll have a more limited app selection. The upside, of course, comes from a chance to optimize more and a greater security than that of an x86 device. ARM also does connected standby better than x86 at this point.
    Yeah, I owned a Surface RT, then upgraded to a Surface 2, knowing full well the capabilities and limitations of Windows RT. Quite frankly, the Surface 2 is 100% capable for what I need on a daily basis. I have not encountered a situation where my Surface 2 couldn't do something I needed, Office 2013 being the primary facilitator. I love IE 11 for the web. The Windows Store has a good selection of apps now (170,000+), so it's getting better every day.

    I no longer travel with my Lenovo Yoga laptop.
    08-04-2014 11:15 AM
  21. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Yeah, I owned a Surface RT, then upgraded to a Surface 2, knowing full well the capabilities and limitations of Windows RT. Quite frankly, the Surface 2 is 100% capable for what I need on a daily basis. I have not encountered a situation where my Surface 2 couldn't do something I needed, Office 2013 being the primary facilitator. I love IE 11 for the web. The Windows Store has a good selection of apps now (170,000+), so it's getting better every day.

    I no longer travel with my Lenovo Yoga laptop.
    Yep, I can easily recommend a Surface RT or 2 or 3 when it comes out to most people.
    08-04-2014 11:29 AM
  22. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    I'm a noob so help me here. Will ARM processors be ever powerful enough than x86 processors to run desktop(x86) apps and games? Secondly, why would anyone want to run desktop(x86) apps to run on ARM tablets which aren't even optimized for touch?

    What I think(or rather hope) is that Microsoft will bring full driver support, USB OTG etc with touched optimized version of Office suite coupled with Modern UI(similar to Modern UI of windows x86 sans desktop UI) with shared platform/store with other versions of window so that developers can bring universal apps to all four (x86, ARM, WP and XBOX) version of windows.
    Last edited by DoctorSaline; 08-04-2014 at 11:47 AM.
    08-04-2014 11:37 AM
  23. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    I'm a noob so help me here. Will ARM processors be ever powerful enough than x86 processors to run desktop(x86) apps and games? Secondly, why would anyone want to run desktop(x86) apps to run on ARM tablets which aren't even optimized for touch?

    What I think(or rather hope) is that Microsoft will bring full driver support, USB OTG etc with touched optimized version of Office suite coupled with Modern UI(similar to Modern UI of windows x86 sans desktop UI) with shared platform/store with other versions of window so that developers can bring universal apps to all four (x86, ARM, WP and XBOX) version of windows.
    A) I don't know why people would want to tun non-touch apps on a Surface RT.
    B) The K1 is on basically on-par with the atom processor, so yes it is as powerful. The problem would be emulation, not that I would recommend it anyway. It's much better to have an optimized ARM app.
    C) Touch-first Office is expected Spring 2015 for Windows RT.
    DoctorSaline likes this.
    08-04-2014 11:49 AM
  24. Matt J's Avatar
    I'm a noob so help me here. Will ARM processor be ever powerful enough than x86 processors to run desktop(x86) apps and games? Secondly, why would anyone want to run desktop(x86) apps to run on ARM tablets which aren't even optimized for touch?

    What I think(or rather hope) is that Microsoft will bring full driver support, USB OTG etc with touched optimized version of Office suite coupled with Modern UI(similar to touch UI of windows x86) with shared platform/store with other versions of window so that developers can bring universal apps to all four (x86, ARM, WP and XBOX) version of windows.
    I don't know the technical details, but the Nvidia Tegra 4 processor in my Surface 2 is impressive. Games are slick and multitasking is the best I've ever seen in ANY device. It runs Office 2013 as good as my Lenovo Yoga laptop. The Surface 2 has accepted any peripheral I have attached. Printers, scanners, mice, pointers. HDMI output is great on the big screen. I'm sure there are some devices that are not compatible, but I haven't come across them yet. I hate comparing the Surface to an iPad or Android device, but it's not even close... the Surface blows them away for productivity and holds its own for fun and games.
    DoctorSaline likes this.
    08-04-2014 11:53 AM
  25. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    A) I don't know why people would want to tun non-touch apps on a Surface RT.
    B) The K1 is on basically on-par with the atom processor, so yes it is as powerful. The problem would be emulation, not that I would recommend it anyway. It's much better to have an optimized ARM app.
    Alright! So basically, ARM can potentially kill x86 in future but before that Microsoft wants to build its ecosystem for ARM based Windows/WP and their dominant x86 market share is the bait for developers which will help build ecosystem of Windows tablets(ARM), Windows Phone and XBox? Right?
    08-04-2014 12:06 PM
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