Surface 3/RT Moving Forward

[missionsparta]

So with all hints pointing to the end of RT, will the next line of non-Pro Surface tablets essentially be large Windows Phones without a cellular connection?

Unfortunately the death of RT would be a result of the whinny & loud group of people that don't use RT anyhow, complaining non-stop about it. This is like Corvette owners ******** about the Sonic because it doesn't have enough horsepower, and GM killing their economic vehicles to make the Corvette owners happy. Everyone I know that bought RT tablets loved them and got what they wanted, at a far cheaper price than the Pro's. Who cried about RT? A bunch of people that wanted Pro. Idiotic. Those that bought a Pro, got what they wanted...the Pro. Those who didn't buy the Pro and bitched at missing features in RT that the Pro had, are clueless. Guess what? What ever comes next is still not going to be a $400 Pro...its going to be something like I mentioned above or another variation that is still missing the Pro features you are crying about.

 

[David P2]

So with all hints pointing to the end of RT, will the next line of non-Pro Surface tablets essentially be large Windows Phones without a cellular connection? Unfortunately the death of RT would be a result of the whinny & loud group of people that don't use RT anyhow, complaining non-stop about it. This is like Corvette owners ******** about the Sonic because it doesnt have enough horsepower, and GM killing their economic vehicles to make the Corvette owners happy. Everyone I know that bought RT tablets loved them and got what they wanted, at a far cheaper price than the Pro's. Who cried about RT? A bunch of people that wanted Pro. Idiotic.

Like an oversized iPhone? That's all the iPad is to me.

 

[sahib lopez]

I would like a surface 3 I loved using my Rt for school and it had served me well . I don't need a pro because I already have a powerful computer and I don't need the extra stuff . Here looking at the surface 3 ^.^

 

[WillysJeepMan]

So with all hints pointing to the end of RT, will the next line of non-Pro Surface tablets essentially be large Windows Phones without a cellular connection?

Unfortunately the death of RT would be a result of the whinny & loud group of people that don't use RT anyhow, complaining non-stop about it. This is like Corvette owners ******** about the Sonic because it doesn't have enough horsepower, and GM killing their economic vehicles to make the Corvette owners happy. Everyone I know that bought RT tablets loved them and got what they wanted, at a far cheaper price than the Pro's. Who cried about RT? A bunch of people that wanted Pro. Idiotic. Those that bought a Pro, got what they wanted...the Pro. Those who didn't buy the Pro and bitched at missing features in RT that the Pro had, are clueless. Guess what? What ever comes next is still not going to be a $400 Pro...its going to be something like I mentioned above or another variation that is still missing the Pro features you are crying about.

Wow, talk about missing the boat.... you missed the ocean.

RT's death was caused by a few things:
1) Microsoft's poor positioning and marketing of the RT vs Pro. They created confusion in consumers minds... similar names, similarly named operating systems.
Surface RT can't run everything that Surface Pro can, Surface RT comes with Office but Surface Pro didn't. There are fanboys in this site who continue to insist that Windows RT is no different than Windows (x86).

2) Except for Office and IE, RT only runs Modern UI apps. RT is dead because of the lack of the quality of apps available for the Modern UI. That's on Microsoft's shoulders too. They needed to leverage their presence to strike deals with key developers.

Not only was Microsoft late to the latest round in the tablet war, they stumbled out of the gate with the RT. Priced too high. $500 for the original RT was insane. It seemed like the only purpose that the RT/2 served was to help justify the price of the Pro.

You can blame the complainers, but they aren't what killed the RT.

 

[rodan01]

Surface 3 could be launched in October, according to sources.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20140728PD205.html

 

[anon(5348756)]

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to understand that RT is NOT DEAD. Claiming that RT is dead because it'll fuse with WP is like saying Both winNT and win9X died when Windows XP was launched. No, elements of both were combined to create a better whole. The ARM SKU of Windows 9 will be essentially another XP moment: WP and RT will merge together getting the best of both systems and creating a more coherent, consistent, capable whole.

We also know that Windows 9 will look immediately different but that doesn't mean it'll be WP on a big screen, nor RT crammed into a smaller phone screen. It'll be something new, an evolution of what we currently have. I was actually just rambling about all these changes in my latest blog post and even though I don't think my mockup is at all what will happen in Windows 9, it's one of the options that we could get that portrays that merger. Same thing with the name of Surface 3, it wouldn't be a stretch to think both phones and consumption tablets will be Lumias while only the pro versions will be Surfaces. Either way, RT won't die: it will evolve, merge, change, adapt, maybe even rebrand, but parts of it will always be there running on your ARM cpu.

 

[David P2]

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to understand that RT is NOT DEAD. Claiming that RT is dead because it'll fuse with WP is like saying Both winNT and win9X died when Windows XP was launched. No, elements of both were combined to create a better whole. The ARM SKU of Windows 9 will be essentially another XP moment: WP and RT will merge together getting the best of both systems and creating a more coherent, consistent, capable whole.

We also know that Windows 9 will look immediately different but that doesn't mean it'll be WP on a big screen, nor RT crammed into a smaller phone screen. It'll be something new, an evolution of what we currently have. I was actually just rambling about all these changes in my latest blog post and even though I don't think my mockup is at all what will happen in Windows 9, it's one of the options that we could get that portrays that merger. Same thing with the name of Surface 3, it wouldn't be a stretch to think both phones and consumption tablets will be Lumias while only the pro versions will be Surfaces. Either way, RT won't die: it will evolve, merge, change, adapt, maybe even rebrand, but parts of it will always be there running on your ARM cpu.

Indeed - 2000 was the first 9x/NT hybrid, but XP just made it more accessible and user friendly. Windows NT is still alive and well: if they hadn't changed the version names, Win2000 would have been NT5, XP 5.1/5.2, Vista 6/6.1, 7 - 7.2, and 8 is effectively NT 6.3. End of the day, they are all Windows NT.

If you go poking about in the registry you will find loads of references to Windows NT. Even some of the old control panels from 2K and XP are directly based on the same control panel from NT 3.51.

 

[Cruncher04]

There are fanboys in this site who continue to insist that Windows RT is no different than Windows (x86).

What has the fact, that Windows RT is the same as Windows to do with beeing ******? The last time you tried to name the differences you failed miserably. I hope i do not need to quote your uniformormed gossip here again.
But i guess it is easy to call someone a ****** as last resort when you are lacking any technical background to that matter.

So with all hints pointing to the end of RT, will the next line of non-Pro Surface tablets essentially be large Windows Phones without a cellular Connection?

What hinting? Microsoft as repeated on several occasions, that Windows on ARM is important to them.

We also know that Windows 9 will look immediately different but that doesn't mean it'll be WP on a big screen, nor RT crammed into a smaller phone screen. It'll be something new, an evolution of what we currently have

Not really. There are 2 development lines: Windows and Windows Phone. There is nothing else in between and never will. Windows and Windows Phone might get closer together with version 9 but this is irrelevant for this discussion. Windows RT is just the name for the ARM build of Windows. Calling anything from the Windows Phone development line Windows RT would make no sense anywway.
Technically Windows RT could not die, because you can make an ARM build of Windows any time. On more practical terms the live time on Windows RT depends on the availability of devices e.g. ARM based tablets for Windows.

Even some of the old control panels from 2K and XP are directly based on the same control panel from NT 3.51

The numbering is as follows:

NT 4
Windows XP -> NT 5
Windows Vista -> NT 6
Windows 7-> NT 6.1
Windows 8-> NT 6.2
Windows 8.1 -> NT 6.3

So current Surface 2 devices with Windows 8.1 running in fact Windows NT 6.3.

In Summary, my current expectation is, that the Surface 3 will feature a Tegra K1 SoC, by far the best mobile SoC you can put into a tablet this year. Of course Microsoft could still do something stupid like putting Baytrail into Surface 3...
Question is if it will be Tegra K1 with 64 bit (AArch64). Optimistically Microsoft could use Surfce 3 as pipe-cleaner for AArch64. Realistically i am not conviced that Microsofts toolchain is ready for AArch64.

 

[WillysJeepMan]

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to understand that RT is NOT DEAD. Claiming that RT is dead because it'll fuse with WP is like saying Both winNT and win9X died when Windows XP was launched. No, elements of both were combined to create a better whole. The ARM SKU of Windows 9 will be essentially another XP moment: WP and RT will merge together getting the best of both systems and creating a more coherent, consistent, capable whole.

You're making the claim that RT is not dead. Why do you believe that? You are giving reasons why some people believe it is and try to refute that, but you haven't given any reasons to support your position.

What new devices have been released this year with Windows RT? How many from companies other than Microsoft? What companies have announced devices that will be released that will run Windows RT?

Let's acknowledge the reality of the situation and deal with that. Technically RT is not dead... and won't be for another 4 years. But it isn't looking like it will sprint to that finish line.

I'm still a big fan of Windows RT. I bought a Surface RT and then subsequently a Surface 2. I found the greatest deficiency in Windows RT to be that it has the same "heavy" subsystems as Windows x86 which caused it to have a level of complexity that is out of place on a tablet targeted for the "non-Pro". That resulted in less-than-predictable stability. I'm speaking only of my own experiences. My experiences don't invalidate anyone else's to the contrary.

 

[David P2]

What has the fact, that Windows RT is the same as Windows to do with beeing ******? The last time you tried to name the differences you failed miserably. I hope i do not need to quote your uniformormed gossip here again.
But i guess it is easy to call someone a ****** as last resort when you are lacking any technical background to that matter.



What hinting? Microsoft as repeated on several occasions, that Windows on ARM is important to them.



Not really. There are 2 development lines: Windows and Windows Phone. There is nothing else in between and never will. Windows and Windows Phone might get closer together with version 9 but this is irrelevant for this discussion. Windows RT is just the name for the ARM build of Windows. Calling anything from the Windows Phone development line Windows RT would make no sense anywway.
Technically Windows RT could not die, because you can make an ARM build of Windows any time. On more practical terms the live time on Windows RT depends on the availability of devices e.g. ARM based tablets for Windows.



The numbering is as follows:

NT 4
Windows XP -> NT 5
Windows Vista -> NT 6
Windows 7-> NT 6.1
Windows 8-> NT 6.2
Windows 8.1 -> NT 6.3

So current Surface 2 devices with Windows 8.1 running in fact Windows NT 6.3.

In Summary, my current expectation is, that the Surface 3 will feature a Tegra K1 SoC, by far the best mobile SoC you can put into a tablet this year. Of course Microsoft could still do something stupid like putting Baytrail into Surface 3...
Question is if it will be Tegra K1 with 64 bit (AArch64). Optimistically Microsoft could use Surfce 3 as pipe-cleaner for AArch64. Realistically i am not conviced that Microsofts toolchain is ready for AArch64.

You forgot Windows 2000 - that was NT5.0 - XP was 5.1. Home users got the abomination that was Windows Millenium - power users/businesses got 2000, and XP was the first unification of the two (Home and Professional editions).

 

[rodan01]

So with all hints pointing to the end of RT, will the next line of non-Pro Surface tablets essentially be large Windows Phones without a cellular connection?.

Nobody knows. It's hard to reconcile the differences between WP and RT. Besides, it'd be weird if x86 hybrids and RT tablets would have a different touch UI.
I think RT and WP will be different skus with an UI optimized for each form factor. RT will be consistent with the x86 touch UI, not with WP.
Of course the desktop has to be removed from RT.

 

[Dan Strong1]

The Surface 2 is the best electronic device I have used in the last 20 years.

I have a powerful desktop computer and a laptop like the post above says. So for the price point, I wanted a Windows device that had full network support/Office and full Windows Driver support for all my devices. Not only this but it has a fantastic screen, great battery life and performance. And NOW there are some really good and useful apps. On the iPad I could never be productive, I didnt expect such a quality device priced so low being so useful for me.

For me I was really wow'd by this device. Surface Pro 3 is not for me, its priced too high for me to justify when I have a powerful PC and would mostly use it as a Tablet.

So for me RT is not dead...

For Surface 3 (If there is one). I would love to see the Pro features such as the kickstand and bigger screen, also some of the standard performance increases and battery life.

Here's hoping!

** Also in the post above, I hope they never remove the desktop as I use it quite a bit, moving files and editing onedrive stuff. If they did this, I would no longer use the RT line.

 

[missionsparta]

Wow, talk about missing the boat.... you missed the ocean.

RT's death was caused by a few things:
1) Microsoft's poor positioning and marketing of the RT vs Pro. They created confusion in consumers minds... similar names, similarly named operating systems.
Surface RT can't run everything that Surface Pro can, Surface RT comes with Office but Surface Pro didn't. There are fanboys in this site who continue to insist that Windows RT is no different than Windows (x86).

2) Except for Office and IE, RT only runs Modern UI apps. RT is dead because of the lack of the quality of apps available for the Modern UI. That's on Microsoft's shoulders too. They needed to leverage their presence to strike deals with key developers.

Not only was Microsoft late to the latest round in the tablet war, they stumbled out of the gate with the RT. Priced too high. $500 for the original RT was insane. It seemed like the only purpose that the RT/2 served was to help justify the price of the Pro.

You can blame the complainers, but they aren't what killed the RT.

If I missed the ocean, you missed the solar system. I could sit and pick apart each of your dribble "reasons", but I've read enough of your past posts to know that you like to talk bigger than your collective knowledge actually is. Step back for a second and stop pretending your some expert, which I am not either. Difference is, I dont spend my half my time on here lecturing people about a subjects you know par about, and the other half just nit-picking people's post.

 

[Cruncher04]

Of course the desktop has to be removed from RT.

Why has it? It does not hurt anyone and is a very powerful tool for system administration. From here you have access to features which are not available elsewhere, like starting and stopping services, sideloading, device and drive administration, access and modification of ACLs and file system, registry access, powershell scripting...basically everything what Windows offers...and most importantly on the desktop is not sandboxed, you have much more access rights than any modern app possibly could have.
Have you ever tried calling into Win32 API from WinRT? In many cases it fails to execute due to insufficient rights.
If you remove the desktop you would create a dumb and heavily restricted device like Windows Phone.

You forgot Windows 2000 - that was NT5.0 - XP was 5.1.

Thanks for the correction. My mistake.

What new devices have been released this year with Windows RT? How many from companies other than Microsoft? What companies have announced devices that will be released that will run Windows RT?

This is a very weak argument. That's like saying iPad is dead, because a) no one else than Apple is producing iPads and b) they have not released any new iPad device this year.
You should know by now, that the Surface line is usually refreshed in Q4. I would agree that if Microsoft is not releasing a Surface refresh this year, Windows for ARM might be in trouble.
It is very important to Microsoft, that Windows for ARM does not get into trouble. They have to support ARM in order to face competition and widen the market for Windows devices.

 

[David P2]

Why has it? It does not hurt anyone and is a very powerful tool for system administration. From here you have access to features which are not available elsewhere, like starting and stopping services, sideloading, device and drive administration, access and modification of ACLs and file system, registry access, powershell scripting...basically everything what Windows offers...and most importantly on the desktop is not sandboxed, you have much more access rights than any modern app possibly could have.
Have you ever tried calling into Win32 API from WinRT? In many cases it fails to execute due to insufficient rights.
If you remove the desktop you would create a dumb and heavily restricted device like Windows Phone.



Thanks for the correction. My mistake.

No problemo. Personally I think 2k was the best - even if you turn off the fisher price interface of XP it still not better than 2k in some respects.

 

[rodan01]

Why has it? It does not hurt anyone and is a very powerful tool for system administration. From here you have access to features which are not available elsewhere, like starting and stopping services, sideloading, device and drive administration, access and modification of ACLs and file system, registry access, powershell scripting...basically everything what Windows offers...and most importantly on the desktop is not sandboxed, you have much more access rights than any modern app possibly could have.
Have you ever tried calling into Win32 API from WinRT? In many cases it fails to execute due to insufficient rights.
If you remove the desktop you would create a dumb and heavily restricted device like Windows Phone.

That's the purpose of RT, being dumb and heavily restricted. It's not a tool for system administrators, although eventually somebody will develop an app for that.

 

[WillysJeepMan]

If I missed the ocean, you missed the solar system. I could sit and pick apart each of your dribble "reasons", but I've read enough of your past posts to know that you like to talk bigger than your collective knowledge actually is. Step back for a second and stop pretending your some expert, which I am not either. Difference is, I dont spend my half my time on here lecturing people about a subjects you know par about, and the other half just nit-picking people's post.

You are free to ignore my posts. :wink:

 

[onlysublime]

You are free to ignore my posts. :wink:

the problem is the forums here don't have an ignore button to blank out posts...

As for the whole Windows Store app ecosystem, it will always have growing pains because it was starting from an ecosystem of zero. No matter how elegant a system is, you're going to get slammed for starting with an ecosystem of zero. And people had to learn a new UI language. Only time can solve those problems. if you compare the apps today to when Windows RT/8 started, it's tremendously better. Not where it needs to be. But nowhere near the dearth of when Windows RT/8 started. Windows tablets and hybrids are actually starting to impact the market. Not because Windows RT or Windows 8 have changed dramatically (they've been refined but they're still Windows RT and Windows 8.1). It's because only time can solve some problems.



The Best Buy CEO, IDC, etc. talked about tablet sales starting to tank while the PC market is stabilizing and even growing in some segments.

Heck, there are articles on how to "save" the iPad... iPad Sales Are Down Again: How Apple Can Reverse This Trend

"Apple has competition on two fronts. Large numbers of consumers are buying budget Android tablets instead of the iPad mini, while growing interest in Windows tablets is starting to put pressure on sales of the iPad Air.

"To face these challenges, Apple needs to expand its product line. The company has tried for too long to appeal to a wide range of buyers with just a handful of products. It has become critical to launch a more affordable iPad, as well as a high-end one for business users."

 

[Cruncher04]

That's the purpose of RT, being dumb and heavily restricted. It's not a tool for system administrators...

The purpose of an OS is to be heavily restricted? Who could possibly want that? It did not work for Windows Phone and it is not going to work for a tablet OS either. If you are overwhelmed by the options the desktop offers, just keep is closed.
You will not increase sales by reducing options.

Example: You want to share some local files on the network. For this you need:

1) start the local file server
2) modify permissions (e.g. ACLs), with powershell you can easily copy ACLs, given you have administration rights
3) tell the local server which files to share

Thats a very useful feature for not only power users and serves just as an example.

If you remove the desktop you are also going to remove the printer services, USB host services and many others.

although eventually somebody will develop an app for that.

You failed to understand the part of my post, where i explained, that sandboxed apps lacking the proper permissions. Do not make the mistake to assume it is a matter of missing apps or even missing APIs.

 

[rodan01]

The purpose of an OS is to be heavily restricted? Who could possibly want that? It did not work for Windows Phone and it is not going to work for a tablet OS either. If you are overwhelmed by the options the desktop offers, just keep is closed.
You will not increase sales by reducing options.

...

If you remove the desktop you are also going to remove the printer services, USB host services and many others.



You failed to understand the part of my post, where i explained, that sandboxed apps lacking the proper permissions. Do not make the mistake to assume it is a matter of missing apps or even missing APIs.

Consumers want products that are easy to use, unbreakable, virus free, with great performance and battery life. Restrictions make this possible.