Surface 3/RT Moving Forward

[Cruncher04]

Consumers want products that are easy to use, unbreakable, virus free, with great performance and battery life. Restrictions make this possible.

Sure. But the removal of desktop will not change any of the above properties.

 

[Matt J]

I see RT as the future of Windows with "regular" Windows eventually being phased out. If the "Metro" interface is the future, and Microsoft is pushing all apps to come through the Windows Store (which already has 170,000+ apps) won't regular Windows eventually seem archaic? Developers just need to write for the Metro interface. Why would you need a bloated Win32 system?

Windows RT is to Windows as iOS is to MacOS. The strategy is clear.

 

[David P2]

You do realise that RT is purely the version for ARM processors, don't you? It already has that limitation. Only things I think you can do on the desktop there involve the Command Prompt and possibly Explorer.

 

[rdubmu]

You do realise that RT is purely the version for ARM processors, don't you? It already has that limitation. Only things I think you can do on the desktop there involve the Command Prompt and possibly Explorer.

And office

 

[David P2]

And office

That too. How could I forget poor Office.

 

[Carine36]

Surface Pro 3,The tablet that replaces your computer. Featuring a 12-inch screen, Surface Pro 3 has the power of a laptop in a size feather weight and versatile.Integral foot now offers several positions to allow you to work comfortably in an airplane, at your desk or watching television.

 

[Matt J]

You do realise that RT is purely the version for ARM processors, don't you? It already has that limitation. Only things I think you can do on the desktop there involve the Command Prompt and possibly Explorer.

Not true. RT runs the entire Office 2013 suite, all of the Windows Administrative Tools (defragmenter, resource monitor, task scheduler, etc.), Windows Accessories (calculator, character map, notepad, paint, etc.) Windows Ease of Access (magnifier, narrator, speech recognition, etc.) and Windows System (command prompt, file explorer, task manager, etc.).

These are not "ARM versions" but native Win 32s running in Windows RT on an ARM processor. Just like Office 2013, Microsoft ALLOWS these to run. Microsoft *could* allow all regular Windows programs to run in RT (like Office 2013) if they wanted to.

The only thing stopping a Surface RT or Surface 2 from installing and running regular Windows apps is Microsoft not allowing it. They want to keep it a closed system. If Microsoft wanted to allow, say, Photoshop to run on RT, it would be easy to do. There is no technical limitation to it.

I think RT is the future because it only makes sense that it is. RT devices are "always on". When you get an email on a Surface 2, it will tell you right away. The Pro, Pro 2 and Pro 3 (I believe) go to sleep like regular computers.

Strategically, MS should start moving applications to the Windows Store and keep optimising RT for performance and battery life.

 

[David P2]

Not true. RT runs the entire Office 2013 suite, all of the Windows Administrative Tools (defragmenter, resource monitor, task scheduler, etc.), Windows Accessories (calculator, character map, notepad, paint, etc.) Windows Ease of Access (magnifier, narrator, speech recognition, etc.) and Windows System (command prompt, file explorer, task manager, etc.).

These are not "ARM versions" but native Win 32s running in Windows RT on an ARM processor. Just like Office 2013, Microsoft ALLOWS these to run. Microsoft *could* allow all regular Windows programs to run in RT (like Office 2013) if they wanted to.

The only thing stopping a Surface RT or Surface 2 from installing and running regular Windows apps is Microsoft not allowing it. They want to keep it a closed system. If Microsoft wanted to allow, say, Photoshop to run on RT, it would be easy to do. There is no technical limitation to it.

I think RT is the future because it only makes sense that it is. RT devices are "always on". When you get an email on a Surface 2, it will tell you right away. The Pro, Pro 2 and Pro 3 (I believe) go to sleep like regular computers.

Strategically, MS should start moving applications to the Windows Store and keep optimising RT for performance and battery life.

No... it's an entirely different processor architecture. That particular version of Office has been compiled to run on ARM - if the executables are copied to an x86 based system they will refuse to run (and vice versa), unless they have been compiled to be a universal binary, which would enable it to run freely on both. One is CISC based (x86(Intel)) and ARM is RISC based. They are totally different things to deal with. If you want an app to run on any other architecture, it needs to be compiled to do so, or you have to resort to emulation which is a lot slower and not everything will work.

NT by design is easily portable to other architectures - NT3 through to 4 ran on multiple architectures: x86, PowerPC, MIPS - they all had "native Win32", as you call it, but the executables for each architecture would not physically run under another. Same goes for RT with its ARM based architecture.

The reason RT devices are "always on" is down to the processor - it can wake up to full speed a lot quicker than an x86 can, and it uses a lot less power to do so.

 

[Matt J]

No... it's an entirely different processor architecture. That particular version of Office has been compiled to run on ARM - if the executables are copied to an x86 based system they will refuse to run (and vice versa), unless they have been compiled to be a universal binary, which would enable it to run freely on both. One is CISC based (x86(Intel)) and ARM is RISC based. They are totally different things to deal with. If you want an app to run on any other architecture, it needs to be compiled to do so, or you have to resort to emulation which is a lot slower and not everything will work.

NT by design is easily portable to other architectures - NT3 through to 4 ran on multiple architectures: x86, PowerPC, MIPS - they all had "native Win32", as you call it, but the executables for each architecture would not physically run under another. Same goes for RT with its ARM based architecture.

The reason RT devices are "always on" is down to the processor - it can wake up to full speed a lot quicker than an x86 can, and it uses a lot less power to do so.

Run Full Windows Applications on Your Windows RT Tablet
Run Full Windows Programs on Windows RT, and Other Bits and Bobs | Gizmodo UK
Hacker finds way to run desktop applications on Windows RT - Computerworld

Yes, a recompile would be needed for ARM. I guess the point is that MS could have made this work easily if it wanted to. RT is not as crippled as people think and may end up being the future of Windows.

 

[Michael Alan Goff]

You're making the claim that RT is not dead. Why do you believe that? You are giving reasons why some people believe it is and try to refute that, but you haven't given any reasons to support your position.

What new devices have been released this year with Windows RT? How many from companies other than Microsoft? What companies have announced devices that will be released that will run Windows RT?

Let's acknowledge the reality of the situation and deal with that. Technically RT is not dead... and won't be for another 4 years. But it isn't looking like it will sprint to that finish line.

I'm still a big fan of Windows RT. I bought a Surface RT and then subsequently a Surface 2. I found the greatest deficiency in Windows RT to be that it has the same "heavy" subsystems as Windows x86 which caused it to have a level of complexity that is out of place on a tablet targeted for the "non-Pro". That resulted in less-than-predictable stability. I'm speaking only of my own experiences. My experiences don't invalidate anyone else's to the contrary.

When MJF asked about the future of Surface on ARM, and whether or not there would be a new Surface at 10", the response was that they were continuing to look at ARM devices of all sizes. So, that's a pretty clear indication that Windows RT isn't dead. Other companies might not make devices with it, but Microsoft seems to be going ahead with it. That should be enough for most people.

 

[Michael Alan Goff]

Not true. RT runs the entire Office 2013 suite, all of the Windows Administrative Tools (defragmenter, resource monitor, task scheduler, etc.), Windows Accessories (calculator, character map, notepad, paint, etc.) Windows Ease of Access (magnifier, narrator, speech recognition, etc.) and Windows System (command prompt, file explorer, task manager, etc.).

These are not "ARM versions" but native Win 32s running in Windows RT on an ARM processor. Just like Office 2013, Microsoft ALLOWS these to run. Microsoft *could* allow all regular Windows programs to run in RT (like Office 2013) if they wanted to.

The only thing stopping a Surface RT or Surface 2 from installing and running regular Windows apps is Microsoft not allowing it. They want to keep it a closed system. If Microsoft wanted to allow, say, Photoshop to run on RT, it would be easy to do. There is no technical limitation to it.

I think RT is the future because it only makes sense that it is. RT devices are "always on". When you get an email on a Surface 2, it will tell you right away. The Pro, Pro 2 and Pro 3 (I believe) go to sleep like regular computers.

Strategically, MS should start moving applications to the Windows Store and keep optimising RT for performance and battery life.

Windows RT can NOT run Win32 programs. It runs ARM-developed programs. That means that you're limited on what you can run.

 

[Matt J]

Windows RT can NOT run Win32 programs. It runs ARM-developed programs. That means that you're limited on what you can run.

Is Office 2013 not a Win32 program?

 

[David P2]

Run Full Windows Applications on Your Windows RT Tablet
Run Full Windows Programs on Windows RT, and Other Bits and Bobs | Gizmodo UK
Hacker finds way to run desktop applications on Windows RT - Computerworld

Yes, a recompile would be needed for ARM. I guess the point is that MS could have made this work easily if it wanted to. RT is not as crippled as people think and may end up being the future of Windows.

Come back when you can show ways that aren't hacks or workarounds. A normal, general everyday user isn't going to go through that much arsing about just to run an application - they would buy something it's guaranteed to run on without resorting to hacks and trickery.

 

[David P2]

Is Office 2013 not a Win32 program?

It runs a specially compiled version for ARM.

 

[Matt J]

Come back when you can show ways that aren't hacks or workarounds. A normal, general everyday user isn't going to go through that much arsing about just to run an application - they would buy something it's guaranteed to run on without resorting to hacks and trickery.

I agree with you. I guess my point was simply that RT has the power and potential to run all Windows apps, on ARM. Sure, hacks and recompiles are needed, but it is possible for MS to allow it.

 

[Michael Alan Goff]

I agree with you. I guess my point was simply that RT has the power and potential to run all Windows apps, on ARM. Sure, hacks and recompiles are needed, but it is possible for MS to allow it.

Who is going to recompile all of those applications?

 

[David P2]

I agree with you. I guess my point was simply that RT has the power and potential to run all Windows apps, on ARM. Sure, hacks and recompiles are needed, but it is possible for MS to allow it.

If it's recompiled, then it's native and no hacks are required - that's the whole point of compiling for a specific architecture.

 

[Michael Alan Goff]

It runs a specially compiled version for ARM.

​That's why VB Macros won't work, iirc.

 

[Matt J]

If it's recompiled, then it's native and no hacks are required - that's the whole point of compiling for a specific architecture.

So RT isn't any better or worse than "regular" Windows, as long as programs are recompiled, correct?

 

[David P2]

So long as it's a Metro app, then yes as those are the only applications you can install on RT. If you want something like iTunes, or Visual Studio, then no it won't work as they aren't Metro apps.