03-07-2015 07:08 AM
124 12345
tools
  1. a5cent's Avatar
    You should know by now that Windows RT is just Windows compiled for ARM. If they eventually decide to compile Windows Phone for x86, that would not make it another version either.
    Seriously, you're not telling me anything new. I've said the same thing for years here at Windows Central. You might want to make yourself familiar with my post history before deciding what you think I should "know by now". It's a bit arrogant.

    It is still the Windows Phone development branch. Only MS changing the name and unifying the runtime (e.g. app cross compatibility) does not make it [Windows Phone 10] a viable OS for tablets.
    True. You just ignored the important part. In addition to the name change and unifying the runtime, MS is also extracting most (if not all) of the tablet related features from Windows (RT) and merging them into WP. I don't know what this entails, but I imagine it will include virtually everything people are familiar with from Windows RT, except the desktop. It should be obvious that the whole point is to make WP a viable OS for tablets.

    There have been many hidden references from Microsoft officials, going all the way back to Julie Larson Green who said MS has three major versions of Windows (Windows, Windows Phone, and Windows RT) and that is one too many.
    That is exactly my point. That's exactly what Julie Larson Green _NOT_ said. Misquotations and interpretations by the blogs and so called experts. Julie Larson Green never said, that there are 3 version of Windows. In fact there are only 2
    You apparently have no idea what Julie Larson-Green did or did not say. Here's the quote:
    "We have the phone OS, we have Windows RT, and we have full Windows," Larson-Green said. "We are not going to have three."
    source (one of many)
    With that I think you've sacrificed your credibility on this issue, despite the fact that I agree with your technical assessment. That's just completely missing the point. Despite not really having three separate OSes, MS does have three separate OS brands, which is what Green and I are referring to. For over a year now I've repeatedly explained why Windows RT is dead (as a brand/separate SKU), and recently tech blogs have started hinting at exactly that.

    As far as updates to Windows RT devices are concerned, there may only be one choice that satisfies you, but based on your posts, I think you're needlessly worried, due to failing to recognize where MS is taking WP. I'm in no way guaranteeing that you'll be happy with the final results, but you are definitely seeing problems where there aren't any. Yes. Losing the desktop will be a problem for some. I'm personally more concerned over how Touch-Office will compare to desktop Office, as those two would have to be roughly equivalent, feature-wise, for W10 mobile to be a viable upgrade. Excluding those two areas of uncertainty, I'm sure W10 mobile will be better than Windows RT in every conceivable way.

    Anyway, as for now, I'm sticking to my assessment that a Windows 10 RT is very unlikely.
    Last edited by a5cent; 12-03-2014 at 04:04 AM. Reason: spelling
    xandros9 likes this.
    12-02-2014 08:32 PM
  2. frimar21's Avatar
    Is it just me or is everybody missing the most important aspect of the desktop? The main reason I got the Surface2 with RT was because of the full IE on desktop. I don't need apps if I have full web capability in my browser. I picked up a refurb from Microsoft for a buck ninety-nine and you can't tell it from new. Losing access to Autodesk's online CAD editing tools would be a major loss for me, so count me in for wanting to keep the desktop.
    .. and what if the new IE will be "full" even without desktop? ;-)
    12-03-2014 03:08 AM
  3. fatclue_98's Avatar
    .. and what if the new IE will be "full" even without desktop? ;-)
    I could live with that, but I would still like to have control panel, Windows Explorer, etc.
    12-03-2014 08:48 AM
  4. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    Is it just me or is everybody missing the most important aspect of the desktop? The main reason I got the Surface2 with RT was because of the full IE on desktop. I don't need apps if I have full web capability in my browser. I picked up a refurb from Microsoft for a buck ninety-nine and you can't tell it from new. Losing access to Autodesk's online CAD editing tools would be a major loss for me, so count me in for wanting to keep the desktop.
    I think it's just you. ;)

    You DON'T get full IE on the desktop on the Surface 2 and RT. No Java. No plug-ins. That is a serious deficiency for students who need to access their institution's online resources.

    And while you don't need apps if you have a web browser, app-ified websites are only a small portion of the type of apps many of us need. If it was as simple as that, then a Chromebook would fit the needs as well.
    12-03-2014 03:50 PM
  5. Ed Boland's Avatar
    That's an odd statement. Everyone that I've interacted with dislikes the desktop. I'm the lone oddball who believes that the Desktop is a BENEFIT of the RT devices. Look at the comments on this forum over the past year and you'll find that I'm virtually the only defender of the desktop on Windows RT.
    :
    I guess I caught this a little late there Jeepman, but I'm a big defender of the desktop on RT as well! Used it quite often, for a variety of things... So I reckon that makes two of us! ;)
    WillysJeepMan and xandros9 like this.
    12-03-2014 04:24 PM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    I guess I caught this a little late there Jeepman, but I'm a big defender of the desktop on RT as well! Used it quite often, for a variety of things... So I reckon that makes two of us! ;)
    I think I've read from at least from six or seven people who appreciate the desktop on RT. You're not alone, but you definitely are in the minority.
    12-03-2014 04:35 PM
  7. Grodelj's Avatar
    I think that desktop mode separates surface from other tablets. If they remove desktop (and don't somehow make up with other functions), the surface will become just another tablet or maybe a big WP device. There will be quite few reasons left to stick with it over other tablets.
    12-04-2014 06:14 AM
  8. Cruncher04's Avatar
    Despite not really having three separate OSes, MS does have three separate OS brands, which is what Green and I are referring to. For over a year now I've repeatedly explained why Windows RT is dead (as a brand/separate SKU), and recently tech blogs have started hinting at exactly that.
    And still you are missing my point. I am not concerned about missing a brand. They can call Windows RT just Windows for ARM or whatever they like. I am concerned about not having a ARM device option running Windows. Also Microsoft should be concerned as well in particular since offering Windows targeting ARM is a low hanging fruit compared to upgrading Windows Phone to be a viable OS for tablets.
    This comes in addition to the fact, that you would lose the feature of plugging your Surface into a multi-monitor environment and happly work on your office files with mouse/keyboard.

    Excluding those two areas of uncertainty, I'm sure W10 mobile will be better than Windows RT in every conceivable way.
    Given Microsoft track-record with Windows Phone lacking the most basic features even 4 years after release, I consider this highly unlikely. This comes on top of the fact that Windows does have all those missing features today. And I am not even talking about advanced features like sharing your file system over the network, joining workgroups/domains, scripting services etc. which are offered by Windows (including RT of course) today.

    I think I've read from at least from six or seven people who appreciate the desktop on RT. You're not alone, but you definitely are in the minority.
    Where is this supposed majority of Surface owners, who would like to get rid of the desktop? If anything, this very thread proves, that the contrary is the case.
    12-06-2014 01:24 PM
  9. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    Where is this supposed majority of Surface owners, who would like to get rid of the desktop? If anything, this very thread proves, that the contrary is the case.
    Not everyone who owns a Windows RT/2 tablet has weighed in on this thread. So you'll need to look beyond this thread (that is only 1 month old) to the general consensus over the past 15 months.

    ​Has the general opinion changed over that time? Perhaps. But it was clearly anti-desktop at some point in the past... and may still be.
    a5cent likes this.
    12-08-2014 02:21 PM
  10. etphoto's Avatar
    Without sounding dumb, what's the big deal with desktop? I mean, if Office ran in Metro mode, why is desktop needed? For those that "use it" all the time, just what is needed in desktop other than Office?

    ET
    12-08-2014 02:47 PM
  11. John Steffes's Avatar
    I can not speak for others, but I have my Surface RT 64G, boot into the Desktop, and have it configured to show All Apps, so I hardly see the Start Screen... I use many Apps at the same time, Calculator, IE (with many tabs open), Outlook, Word, Excel, Notepad, One Note and Xbox Music in the background. I cut/paste between apps which can not be done in the immersive shell mode...

    I view the Surface as a Tablet that can be a laptop some times, and the Surface Pro as a Laptop that can be a Tablet sometimes...

    Now I use the Surface like a laptop 98% of the time, besides when I watch a movie or view a Store App (Snack on Apps), but for the most part I use my Surface RT 64G as a laptop in a tablet form, I always have the keyboard connected and an external mouse (I even have it connected to the Surface Pro Docking station).

    What I have come to know is none of us on this forum in this Thread work for Microsoft, and nobody knows what they will do for our Surface RT/2, but if they remove the Desktop they just killed productivity for me... I have a laptop (really about 10 of them), I have servers (about 3 of them), Desktops (about 5 of them), I have tablets (webOS/Android Touchpad, NextBook Androids, and my wife has an iPad Mini), so if I wanted another Tablet I would not have looked at Windows or Windows RT...

    I wanted a productive environment that works like Windows does, I love the Desktop and if Microsoft wants to close the doors on the Desktop, then they just closed the doors on me ever getting a Windows Tablet ever again... I will stick with Android or iOS as their App Stores and Browsers have more options... Although the Multi-tasking is great in Windows (Desktop Mode), Windows (Immersive Apps) sucks..
    a5cent likes this.
    12-08-2014 04:27 PM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    ​Has the general opinion changed over that time? Perhaps. But it was clearly anti-desktop at some point in the past... and may still be.
    I don't know about being anti-desktop. The few people I know that have a Surface/2 just don't care (admittedly completely anecdotal).

    Every one of them would say that as long as they can use MS Word, they're perfectly fine without the desktop.
    Last edited by a5cent; 12-09-2014 at 05:15 AM.
    12-09-2014 05:03 AM
  13. etphoto's Avatar
    I don't know about being anti-desktop. The few people I know that have a Surface/2 just don't care (admittedly completely anecdotal).

    Every one of them would say that as long as they can use MS Word, they're perfectly fine without the desktop.


    I would agree with this. Just out of boredom I starting playing with desktop mode (because of this thread) to see if I'm missing something.
    12-09-2014 06:53 AM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    I would agree with this. Just out of boredom I starting playing with desktop mode (because of this thread) to see if I'm missing something.
    I think John Steffes explained it well. It's NOT about what you can do, but how you do it, and 90% of that issue revolves around multi-tasking. I think that is a valid complaint.
    However, I disagree with how those complaints are being directly associated with the desktop. The desktop is not an essential/fundamental part of the Windows multi-tasking experience. In other words, there is no reason W10 mobile couldn't offer very similar multitasking mechanics, entirely without the desktop. At least in that regard, I consider the desire for the desktop somewhat of a proxy-feature-request. It's calling for one thing, when it's actually something else that is wanted. Add in a taskbar and the ability to float snapped Windows, and the immersive environment might already be very close to offering the same multitasking mechanics, entirely without the desktop. We'll have to wait and see...
    12-09-2014 07:42 AM
  15. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I think John Steffes explained it well. It's NOT about what you can do, but how you do it, and 90% of that issue revolves around multi-tasking. I think that is a valid complaint.
    However, I disagree with how those complaints are being directly associated with the desktop. The desktop is not an essential/fundamental part of the Windows multi-tasking experience. In other words, there is no reason W10 mobile couldn't offer very similar multitasking mechanics, entirely without the desktop. At least in that regard, I consider the desire for the desktop somewhat of a proxy-feature-request. It's calling for one thing, when it's actually something else that is wanted. Add in a taskbar and the ability to float snapped Windows, and the immersive environment might already be very close to offering the same multitasking mechanics, entirely without the desktop. We'll have to wait and see...
    I hate to disagree but desktop IS multi-tasking. There is no method easier than selecting tabs on the taskbar. All your open progs in one place without having to long-press this or swipe that.
    12-09-2014 10:06 AM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    I hate to disagree but desktop IS multi-tasking. There is no method easier than selecting tabs on the taskbar. All your open progs in one place without having to long-press this or swipe that.

    That's just how it is now. There is no reason that a future version of the immersive environment couldn't support those same multitasking mechanics without the desktop though. Like I said, add a taskbar (or something that serves the same purpose) and the ability to float snapped apps to the immersive environment, and you'd already be very close to the same thing, entirely without the desktop. I'm not talking about how it is now, buy how it could be.
    My main point is that it's only convention and/or tradition that we associate multitasking with the desktop, nothing more. As a result, if it's multitasking we want, it may be premature to assume that will only be possible if the desktop is retained.
    12-09-2014 01:44 PM
  17. fatclue_98's Avatar
    That's just how it is now. There is no reason that a future version of the immersive environment couldn't support those same multitasking mechanics without the desktop though. Like I said, add a taskbar (or something that serves the same purpose) and the ability to float snapped apps to the immersive environment, and you'd already be very close to the same thing, entirely without the desktop. I'm not talking about how it is now, buy how it could be.
    My main point is that it's only convention and/or tradition that we associate multitasking with the desktop, nothing more. As a result, if it's multitasking we want, it may be premature to assume that will only be possible if the desktop is retained.
    If MS can adopt that kind of multi-tasking, great. The problem is, nobody has come up with a better solution than what we're used to. OS X uses the same dock-style taskbar we've been using since Vista. XP was similar but not as functional as what we have now. On the mobile front, only on webOS's "cards" did we enjoy a suitable multi-tasking UX. Unless MS can come up with an equal replacement, why ditch the desktop? It's not like it's hogging up valuable resources. I wasn't one of those screaming for the start button and all that craziness when Windows 8 came out. There's a certain usefulness that I enjoy with the Metro UI when I just want to read emails or kick back and laugh at some of the crazy stuff my friends post on FB. But when I need to get some serious work done, I want that desktop. Windows is productivity-based and some of us old turds like it that way. The RT doesn't have much going for it in the apps department - I think they should at least leave what makes it attractive to some of us.
    12-09-2014 03:16 PM
  18. onlysublime's Avatar
    I'm glad to hear that at least Surface 2 will be getting Windows 10 (heard them saying it on Windows Weekly). Things are murky for Surface RT though.

    I hope there is a desktop option for Windows 10 RT though. I do like Modern apps. However, some things are easier with desktop especially moving files around. It's just so easy to drag them from window to window, especially with longer filenames. The problem I have with the file pickers in Windows 8.1 is that if you have a really long filename, you can't see the whole name in the tile. And I have a bunch of files that are long and named the same except for a different ending. This is impossible to decipher one file from another with the Modern interface. And the pop-up to show the filename doesn't work many times (especially if you're doing purely touch). They need to be more flexible with the tile size.

    I just have an easier sense of what's happening with a desktop and doing it the PC way. Tablet interfaces try to hide too much which makes it hard to do basic things like move files between partitions, etc.
    12-09-2014 03:34 PM
  19. James Ng1's Avatar
    Oh god no...please don't take away the desktop. FOR ME, i have no need for windows software. I don't need photoshop, work software (teamviewer or others), most of my work is on the cloud (onedrive or cloud based softwares...i have people working in multiple locations). THe surface 2 is perfect for me. It's awesome looking and cheap, better than chromebooks. Got mine for 298 AUD plus 110 for the typecover. It has UBS 3 as well.

    so it is basically my 'PC' (even though it's RT). take away the desktop and...well it'll be different. i hope they keep it in some form.
    12-09-2014 04:55 PM
  20. bdball's Avatar
    Was at Best Buy today and they had no Surface 2's on display (Only Surface Pro 3's). They also only had a couple Typepad 2's, no Touchpad Keyboards. Went online to Windowsstore.com and the 64g Surface 2 is sold out. I'm thinking that after Christmas the Surface 2 will be a discontinued item. No more RT?
    12-10-2014 02:07 PM
  21. onlysublime's Avatar
    Was at Best Buy today and they had no Surface 2's on display (Only Surface Pro 3's). They also only had a couple Typepad 2's, no Touchpad Keyboards. Went online to Windowsstore.com and the 64g Surface 2 is sold out. I'm thinking that after Christmas the Surface 2 will be a discontinued item. No more RT?
    RT and Windows Phone will become Windows 10 and merged as Windows 10 for ARM. Windows 10 will be divided as PC and mobile so tablets and phones go under mobile. This is what's being said by Windows insiders. Who knows what happens. Plans change. But as for current Surface 2 (and I would assume Nokia 2520) owners, things look up for getting Windows 10. I wouldn't hold out much hope for Surface RT users. I think that device is too slow as it is for Windows 10.
    12-13-2014 07:33 PM
  22. Ed Boland's Avatar
    I did notice, on a somewhat related tidbit of news, that the Nokia 2520 (RT) tablet is no longer listed on AT&T's "Shop AT&T" page...
    12-13-2014 08:57 PM
  23. John Steffes's Avatar
    In the past there were various interviews with Microsoft execs who indicated that the presence of the desktop was a decision made simply because there was no Modern UI version of Office available when they released the Surface.

    The implication was that the desktop was not in their original plan for Windows RT devices and that once MS Office for MUI is released, there would be no reason for the desktop.

    That's a mistake IMO since I found the desktop to be greatly valuable in using my Surface RT and Surface 2.

    From the looks of it Microsoft can read...

    Windows Central welcomes these verified Microsoft employees to our Support Forums! | Windows Central

    If you want to keep your customers keep the Desktop on ARM (Surface RT/Surface 2) as an option, if people want the Desktop, they should be able to have the Desktop, if they want the Office Apps (as Desktop Apps) let this be an option... Some do not want the Desktop, I get that, I do not agree, but that is their option, just allow me to have my option...
    12-13-2014 10:36 PM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ I think you'll have that option either way though. Possibly not on a W10 ARM tablet, but then you'd get it on an Atom based Surface. I'm guessing very likely one or the other.
    12-14-2014 12:01 AM
  25. Cruncher04's Avatar
    I think John Steffes explained it well. It's NOT about what you can do, but how you do it, and 90% of that issue revolves around multi-tasking. I think that is a valid complaint.
    Again you making wrong assumptions about why the desktop is important. I make s short breakdown:

    1) Desktop Apps are the preferred solution for Keyboard/Mouse/Monitor usage for several reasons. Try running a metro app on a 27 inch screen to see what I mean. So even if Metro Office is available for tablets, anyone would use desktop Office when connected to a monitor.
    2) Desktop Apps are not suspended when in background. This features is simply not available for the WinRT sandbox.
    3) The only reasonable scripting environment (PowerShell) is only available for desktop. And yes scripts are not suspended in background either.
    4) Desktop is the only way to manage your machine. This starts from installing and manage device drivers, system services, file system and ACLs, full registry access, process and thread management, side-loading of programs, storage management etc...
    5) Desktop offers the only meaningful way to share your local resources with the network (e.g. file and printer sharing)
    6) Desktop/WIn32 is the only environment, where you have full administrative permissions. Try calling a Win32 API from WinRT sandbox to see what I mean. WinRT sandbox is such restricted that nothing is allowed which requires higher permission level.
    7) Only WIN32 APIs allows you to manage virtual memory and cache. This makes a whole class of applications, which use dynamic code generation inherently not available for WinRT. Ever seen something like dosbox unter WinRT? Of course not. However it is available for jailbroken Windows RT devices, where you can use Win32 API from desktop apps.

    There are certainly more reasons, but I just put up the most important ones. I did not even mentioned the fact that Office and Outlook is not available for WinRT, because it would not help my points above at all.

    Possibly not on a W10 ARM tablet, but then you'd get it on an Atom based Surface.
    You bring up an important point. Why restrict options, when you want to succeed in the market? I am not interested in an Atom based devices still I want the desktop. I would rather go Android or Apple when the desktop is missing from ARM based Windows devices because the big advantage of having Windows would be gone immediately.
    Microsoft is so much ahead of competition, when it comes to ARM based devices with the current Windows RT offering. It excels over Android devices, Chromebooks and iPads. They are just about throwing this away when killing desktop.
    Last edited by Cruncher04; 12-15-2014 at 10:34 PM.
    12-15-2014 10:17 PM
124 12345

Similar Threads

  1. Why is my Surface Pro 3 overheating?
    By anon(5061193) in forum Microsoft Surface Pro 3
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-08-2014, 03:27 PM
  2. Microsoft could offer more taskbar options in future Windows 10 builds
    By WindowsCentral.com in forum Windows Central News Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-08-2014, 08:30 AM
  3. Torrex Surface Edition takes torrents to your tablet
    By WindowsCentral.com in forum Windows Central News Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-07-2014, 04:11 PM
  4. Watch our Halo: Master Chief Collection co-op preview on Twitch tonight and win prizes!
    By WindowsCentral.com in forum Windows Central News Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-07-2014, 03:30 PM
  5. Overwatch FPS game recruits super heroes to restore order to future earth
    By WindowsCentral.com in forum Windows Central News Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-07-2014, 02:20 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD