S3 Price Discussion

[onlysublime]

If they carry over some of the Windows Phone touch keyboard features, the Windows 10 touch keyboard will be fantastic. The Windows 8 touch keyboard is lacking overall (why the heck put the autocorrection so far away from the typing fingers??? ARGH!!!). But that number pad arrangement is fantastic in the Windows 8 touch keyboard.

As for the combination of a tablet and laptop... The reason why I love my Surface machines is because I can do whatever I want on a whim. I remember back to my laptop days and how unwieldy it was to use a laptop while standing. Sometimes I wanted to rip that keyboard right off. And back in my laptop days, it didn't have a touchscreen. Try using a trackpad and keyboard while standing. Awkward. Ultrabooks are sleek and thin (I do love my friend's Acer S7 and my other friend's Dell XPS 13) when closed but open it up and it's unwieldy again. I tried to like the Yoga machines but feeling the loose keys underneath in tablet mode was really weird.

Sure, the Surface isn't perfect in either mode. But I'd rather have a system that's functional in both ways than a system that's functional only in one way. Better to have 80% laptop and 80% tablet than 100% laptop and 0% tablet or 100% tablet and 0% laptop. People who own an iPad will never be able to do Photoshop (real Photoshop, not that stupid Photoshop Touch). People who own a laptop will never be able to remove that keyboard. I won't be using my Surface 3 as my primary machine to do InDesign or Photoshop. But if I'm at a restaurant and my friend needs a rush job on minor edits to an InDesign document, I can whip out my Surface 3 in an emergency and deliver it on the spot if I don't have my Surface Pro 2 with me (I always have at least one of the machines with me always). And the Surface machines have a good pen option.

How many machines have a pen option, a tablet mode, a touchscreen, AND a laptop mode all together? Almost none.

And I know you always bring up the tablets with keyboard docks. I own an ASUS Transformer Book T100 64GB machine. And that was such a compromise, much more so than a Surface machine. I would say that was 60% tablet score and 60% laptop score. The keys were tiny. The performance was actually okay. The keyboard was so light that if you tilted the tablet back like a laptop, it would tip over which actually made the Surface a much better machine on the lap. The USB port was in the keyboard dock so if you had it in tablet mode, you had only a microUSB port. The screen was half the brightness of any Surface machine (even the Surface RT had a better screen).

If it was possible to put the majority of the weight of a tablet/dock into the dock and have a featherweight tablet so it doesn't tip over, that could be the ideal setup but that'll never be the case. In fact, the new ASUS Transformer Book T300 Chi... They put weight into the base to counteract the tipping over. But that made the keyboard dock/tablet heavier than ultrabooks.

In many ways my Garmin car GPS is far superior to any cell phone GPS but a lot of people decide to go with a cell phone GPS out of convenience. That's kind of what the Surface is: convenience. If you want the best possible tablet, there are other options. If you want the best possible laptop, there are other options. If you want a machine that does everything, there are very few options and Surface stands out.

 

[illegaloperation]

Since Geodude074 seems to think that the Surface 3 is a rip-off, why doesn't he go out to buy an Asus Transformer Book T100 Chi and give us a full review of it?

 

[exaybachay01]

Since Geodude074 seems to think that the Surface 3 is a rip-off, why doesn't he go out to buy an Asus Transformer Book T100 Chi and give us a full review of it?

Or any Windows 8.1 2-in-1 around the same price and size, for that matter.

 

[Stiv X]

WillysJeepMan, you make some good points, but the entire point of my post is people will pay lots of money for lesser products and be happy to do it. Yet, when buying a device that is intended to last you for years to come, complain about cost. I often give presentations around the country about emerging mobile technology. One of the things I always show are the stats explaining why the mobile market has become more profitable than the PC business. Two reasons stand out: everyone has a cell phone, but it is not uncommon for there to be 1 PC per household AND statically people will upgrade their mobile device either annually or every two years, where as the average upgrade for a PC is 5+ years. I plan to keep my Surface3 for as long as I can. So, it is worth the investment to me.

Also, I had stated earlier there are other options that are cheaper if all you care about it most bang for your buck. Microsoft has positioned the Surface as a premium device. It is a premium device. It will be marketed and sold as a premium device. Microsoft is in the process of creating Apple device competitors. That is the market. There are now and always will be other ways to save money. The ASUS Switch line are nice, but not for everyone. I personally don't like the 16:9 display, the unbalanced weight, small chicklet-style keyboard, and I haven't personally had much luck with long device life out of any ASUS I have previously owned. That is my opinion. I would rather pay more for something I consider a more premium device designed to last me for many years, such as the Surface. Others may like the better cost savings of the ASUS Switch product line. There is nothing wrong with someone doing that. It is nice to have options.

 

[P_Devil]

Atom x7 is no comparison to the Core M-5Y31, the Core-M easily walks all over Atom. The A8X in the iPad Air 2 is also significantly more powerful than Atom x7. In fact, the A8X is competitive with Core-M.

Not according to the benchmarks... The Core M pulls slightly ahead in single-core performance with the Atom pulling just as ahead in multi-threaded performance.

 

[WillysJeepMan]

Since Geodude074 seems to think that the Surface 3 is a rip-off, why doesn't he go out to buy an Asus Transformer Book T100 Chi and give us a full review of it?

Or any Windows 8.1 2-in-1 around the same price and size, for that matter.

He didn't say or imply that the S3 is a rip-off.

Here's my review of the Acer Aspire Switch 11 that I bought at the Microsoft Store. IMO it can't be beat for the price.

 

[exaybachay01]

My comment was based on him mentioning a couple other Win 8.1 devices, but doesn't go out there and get one or review one or this and that. It's just aggravated complaints about issues he sees with the S3 and people who enjoy the device or has a differing opinion to his and his defense anger rises so he can post that he has an aggravated complaint with the device and the poster.

 

[Geodude074]

Not according to the benchmarks... The Core M pulls slightly ahead in single-core performance with the Atom pulling just as ahead in multi-threaded performance.

Really? Where are these benchmarks? I'd like to see them. Because here are the benchmarks that I found.

Surface 3 single core


Macbook single core


Surface 3 multi core


Macbook multi core


Surface 3 Kraken


Macbook Kraken


Surface 3 WebXPRT


Macbook WebXPRT


Surface 3 Geekbench


Macbook Geekbench


iPad Air 2 Geekbench


So explain to me, because I don't get it. Where does it show the Core M just "slightly" pulling ahead in single-core performance? Where in these benchmarks does it show the Atom x7 pulling ahead in multi-core performance? Because from what I see, there is a vast difference in performance between Atom x7 and Core M-5Y31 in both single and multi-core.

 

[Geodude074]

My comment was based on him mentioning a couple other Win 8.1 devices, but doesn't go out there and get one or review one or this and that. It's just aggravated complaints about issues he sees with the S3 and people who enjoy the device or has a differing opinion to his and his defense anger rises so he can post that he has an aggravated complaint with the device and the poster.

Look at the anger stemming from this guy. Were your parents killed by a mugger when you were a child or something, Batman? Lol. I'm not the angry one here. The people who are angry, are the ones who are proven wrong time and again when they claim either the Surface 3 is as fast as Core M, or the Surface 3 has good performance for the price.

 

[illegaloperation]

Look at the anger stemming from this guy. Were your parents killed by a mugger when you were a child or something, Batman? Lol. I'm not the angry one here. The people who are angry, are the ones who are proven wrong time and again when they claim either the Surface 3 is as fast as Core M, or the Surface 3 has good performance for the price.

I keep hearing from you about how expensive the Surface 3 is and how much better priced the Asus Transformer Book T100 Chi is.

I want to make my question clear: What exactly are you planning on buying?

 

[alexofk]

The people who are angry, are the ones who are proven wrong time and again when they claim either the Surface 3 is as fast as Core M, or the Surface 3 has good performance for the price.

As a surface 3, pro 3, mbp owner, the performance combined with the quality and design of the machine IS good for the price.
I'm still amazed what that 2watt x7 can do with my day to day use.

 

[LibbyLA]

If most of your use involves typing (i.e., word processing or spreadsheets, email, etc.) and web surfing, it doesn't much matter about benchmarks because all but the slowest computers are still faster than most humans can type. What matters is actual performance under real-world conditions, which are different for every one of us.

 

[WillysJeepMan]

If most of your use involves typing (i.e., word processing or spreadsheets, email, etc.) and web surfing, it doesn't much matter about benchmarks because all but the slowest computers are still faster than most humans can type. What matters is actual performance under real-world conditions, which are different for every one of us.

I agree... and I'd go further, that benchmarks are nothing more than marketing tools to attract those who spend more time eyes glazing over as they enter a deep "spec trance" rather than to attract people who simply use the devices.

My personal opinion is that the S3 is a bit overpriced. But that opinion was not influenced by its performance, which is fine.

 

[cygnus11]

I also share the opinion that the price of the Surface 3 is a bit higher than it should be to optimize sales in the current market. But I'm sure MS has done way more market analysis than I have done. I already purchased one, so obviously the price was not too high to get me to buy it. But I did trade in an old Surface to help offset the cost, which was the thing that pushed me over the edge to buy it.

I truly believe that if both S3 models included the type cover at those prices, it would then be perfectly priced to sell a ton of units.

 

[cutterjohn]

I guess it is just that kind of day, but I think I've read the last review I can stand where the reviewer says the S3 is too expensive, but compares it to an iPad. Let's take a few points:

1. The iPad price is OK, but the S3 is too much. BS! The S3 has a full operating system on it, the iPad is limited by the mobile OS (iOS). The only way it could be compared is if it ran full OSX on it. AND THEY ARE COMPARABLY PRICED!

2. The S3 doesn't include the keyboard. So what? The iPad (which apparently is comparable) doesn't come with a keyboard. Also, if you don't like the Type cover, you can use any Bluetooth keyboard on the S3. It doesn't have to have the type cover. It is a peripheral device just like the Surface Pen. The SP3 comes with the Pen, so I could see that being bundled, but the keyboard while it would be nice, is still not a necessity for all people. You know what else the iPad doen't have? A digitized stylus capability.

I could go on, but I'm going to stop myself before I go nuts. Look. The base model S3 costs $499 in the US. You can get deals and bundles here and there if you look. What I am getting tired of hearing is how much it costs. The f'n Apple Watch is priced from $350 to $12,000, but people will line up for a device that can't do a quater of the things the S3 can. Anyone consider that Flagship cell phones cost more than the S3. At AT&T the base Galaxy S6 (32Gb) is $684.99, the base Galaxy S6 Edge (32Gb) is $814.99, the iPhone 6 (16Gb) is $649.99, and the iPhone 6 Plus (16Gb) is $749.99. People will buy these device annually. You think if people don't see something they want bad enough, they won't go for it?

here's the way i do:
what are the specs and general cost of components
what are similar specced devices priced at
what other devices are in a similar price range and what specs do they have
is it a throwaway device, i.e. meant to be user maintinable which is a HUGE value decrease for me

ok, so surface 3
it's an atom albeit the latest and greatest in either 64GB 2GB OR 128GB 4GB neither of which are impressive given that the x7 can support up to 16GB and RAM is relatively cheap

active digitizer: maybe nice maybe not, ignore it

throwaway device not meant to be user serviced minus

cost $500-600

is it worth that? absolutely not. that would buy you an i5 to i7 range midrange notebook more likely than not with user serviceable parts.

same goes for those insanely priced surface pro's which are into i7 mq notebook range sager et. al. sp3 is also way too large to be comfortably used as a tablet, s3 is marginal

so in my case wanting to try out a hybrid my VALUE point is the bestbuy $450 dell venue 11 pro 7140. competitive performancewise with t300 AND designed to be user maintainable, ssd, wifi, battery while still coming in at a similarly marginal tablet use size. personally i feel that that is close to reasonable price/performance ratio for wht it is and corners cut, primarily ram again.

So, IMNHO an s3 2GB to me is closer to fair MAYBE at 275-300 and maybe 50-75 more for 2 extra gig ram and 64 gig ssd all nonreplaceable by design.

thats my take on how i personally evaluate value and perf of similar competing item, or tke it this way, say i was looking at buying a house or car, it's what i'm looking for at a fair price, but in this i say no, instead of 50k please take this 250k.

my $0.02

 

[illegaloperation]

here's the way i do:
what are the specs and general cost of components
what are similar specced devices priced at
what other devices are in a similar price range and what specs do they have
is it a throwaway device, i.e. meant to be user maintinable which is a HUGE value decrease for me

ok, so surface 3
it's an atom albeit the latest and greatest in either 64GB 2GB OR 128GB 4GB neither of which are impressive given that the x7 can support up to 16GB and RAM is relatively cheap

active digitizer: maybe nice maybe not, ignore it

throwaway device not meant to be user serviced minus

cost $500-600

is it worth that? absolutely not. that would buy you an i5 to i7 range midrange notebook more likely than not with user serviceable parts.

same goes for those insanely priced surface pro's which are into i7 mq notebook range sager et. al. sp3 is also way too large to be comfortably used as a tablet, s3 is marginal

so in my case wanting to try out a hybrid my VALUE point is the bestbuy $450 dell venue 11 pro 7140. competitive performancewise with t300 AND designed to be user maintainable, ssd, wifi, battery while still coming in at a similarly marginal tablet use size. personally i feel that that is close to reasonable price/performance ratio for wht it is and corners cut, primarily ram again.

So, IMNHO an s3 2GB to me is closer to fair MAYBE at 275-300 and maybe 50-75 more for 2 extra gig ram and 64 gig ssd all nonreplaceable by design.

thats my take on how i personally evaluate value and perf of similar competing item, or tke it this way, say i was looking at buying a house or car, it's what i'm looking for at a fair price, but in this i say no, instead of 50k please take this 250k.

my $0.02

Monet paintings are worth millions of dollars, yet they are just made of paints and canvases.

I should go buy some paints and canvases to make my own Monet paintings and sell them for millions of dollars.

If you want to buy the Dell Venue 11 Pro, then great.

 

[exaybachay01]

I'm still waiting for someone who has the dv11p 7140 from best buy to give their opinion on the device. It seems rather interesting and I'll agree is rather attractive with its specs and current price. The main drawbacks that keep me on the fence mostly border on the fact that the display units I've tried at 3 best buy locations all ran warm with running nothing on the device. Furthering the issue is that all the reviews online that I can find (with benchmarks and from reputable outlets) are for the model with the core m 5y71, 128gb ssd. The best buy brand model is actually 64gb and has the 5y10 chipset. This is worrisome because in October '14 Intel discontinued the 5y70, 5y10, 5y10a chips, before any of the devices that had them hit the market, with no explanation. Couple that with the fact that the device has been "on sale" for $450 for 3 weeks now, makes me a little weary. The best comparison is the fact that all base models of the Asus t300chi have the core m 5y10c chip (which thankfully HAS NOT been discontinued) micro USB 3 only, has Bluetooth only kb included, but only a $699 price.

As I said, and have said so on a few threads, I'd be interested in hearing from someone who picked up the best buy model instead of the s3, to give us a good view. The specs and price do make it an attractive device (albeit one that needs $109-159 for the good kb attachment with battery), so warrants fair examination.

But then again I'm the guy who got a "good post" from GeoDude on one thread, and then called batman (not as a compliment) here, so who knows if this logical proposal makes sense, or holds any water.

 

[P_Devil]

Really? Where are these benchmarks? I'd like to see them. Because here are the benchmarks that I found.

The website I read has since been updated. They initially had Passmark CPU scores of ~720 (single-threaded) and ~3300 (multi-threaded) for the Surface 3 and ~800 (single-threaded) and ~3000 (multi-threaded). I refuse to acknowledge Geekbench since their testing is flawed for x86 systems but the benchmarks from Anandtech are solid. So I apologize. The website took down their numbers (which they said they ran) and put up screenshots from Anandtech's website. Nice editing and journalism.

 

[tearfalls]

Surface 3 is pretty. I am willing to pay double price just for this reason.